Mike Coslo wrote in :

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message
...


snippage


I don't agree there Jim! True enough, its an arbitrary thing, but what
you are talking about is power limits and sub-bands, and I am talking
about the qualifications to operate *at all*. the other folks simply
operate within the limitations of their licenses, and the 10 year and
1 day class B ham is no ham at all anymore.


Just like the old Novices when their licenses ran out.

Point is, that hypothetical Class B had a window of 8 *years* to
upgrade to Class A. You said it took you all of a week to get ready
for Extra.

Granted, I had a head start, and didn't need as much time as some,
but
I find it hard to argue that 10 years is a good time limit when it
isn't needed. Anyone that takes ten years to upgrade to Extra is
probably not going to upgrade to Extra. Ooops, class A.


I keep drawing parallels between the second class license and
Generals. We try to get people out to operate on field day, and you
can get some pretty strange setups. First a Ham with less than 2
years time in grade would have to have a control op.


Why?

If he/she is operating 50 Watts, they are outside their priveliges.


OK. So turn down the power.

Sigh... our club has a group of guys and gals that make a big
production out of FD. It isn't what everyone does, but its what we do.
We don't want to run 50 watts. The first year I went to field day, I
was a Technician. I got to run a high power station with a control op
logging. It was great, and was what really got me interested in getting
my General. then I logged while he opped.

Then next year, when I had my General, I could op by myself,
discovering the joy of overnight operation.

My points are two. We worked in this rank beginner from a
technician
up, and didn't interfere with the station operation, and it worked
well. No adjustments needed. And I was part of the group from the
git-go.


As long as the power level is less than 50 W, that Class B ham could
operate any freq, any mode, as the control op.

Ahh, but now we have to set up a special low power station. The low
power ghetto I was talking about. For good or bad, my club runs high
power during Field Day.


Most clubs don't.

We do.


And if the power levels were restructured, the points from a 50 watt
station could make more difference than those from a 1500 W station.

Another "if-then" situation. Gaw, were getting a lot of them.



I'm taking my reference of "Class B Ghetto" from
experience with the GOTA station. The first year our GOTA station
operated, many of the people operating it called it a "toy station".


That's *their* problem.

And it becomes *our* problem then. Since then, I have worked hard
to
make the GOTA operators feel like part of the group. move that tent
nearer the big tent. Keep more people than just myself and the person
at the mic there. I'm a little surprised, Jim. All that I'm talking
about is making these potential hams and inactive hams feel like maybe
we *want* them there. Your arguments sound a little like some of the
old cranks I hear once in a while.


They could op one of the high power stations, park on a frequency, and
rack up points, and the lowly GOTA station has to hunt and pounce. It
wasn't until I put PSK31 on the GOTA station that it took off.


So? They're used to being Big Guns. Anybody who wants to be a Big Gun
could just get a Class A and be done with it.

After two years.


note: I'm not suggesting that newbies use high power. Just the
opposite in fact. Hunt and pounce at low power builds competence in
the new ham. But its so hard to compete with power when you're working
like crazy to get a QSO, and the guy in the next tent is racking them
up at a high rate.


That's part of the experience requirement. Part of the plan.

And remember the power multiplier idea. If the 50 watt station is
hunt/pecking 20 per hour but has a 3.5 multiplier, they're making more
points than the Big Gun doing 60 per hour.

"if-then"


We have hams what operate now at field
day that would suddenly have to have a control op (therefore taking
myself or another Extra away from a station)



Not at all! Existing hams would retain their existing privs under
Hans' proposal.

I'm saying that I'm sitting with the guy as a control op and not
operating myself.


If they're existing hams (say, Generals) they could still do what
they've always done. If they're unlicensed, or not licensed for the
freq/power/mode in use, they still need a control op today.

And one of the *best* ways for them to learn is to work with an
experienced op.


Of course the second class
ham could operate a 50 watt or less station, but that would mean
that either we change our setup - all stations except GOTA are full
output - or set up a special station just for the second class hams,
a sort of low power ghetto.

You mean you folks operate 1500 W on FD? (that's "full output")

Actually we operat @1kW. My bad.


FD rules can be changed, y'know.


Heck, the GOTA station can run more power. Maybe this
is no problem for you, but for others it isn't so good


Try QRP some time ;-)

Nothing wrong with QRP. I'm just noting possible problems as outlined
above. If you're going QRP then everyone is operating at less than 5
watts.


Only if the current rules are kept.

The fact is that if a non-Extra wants to operate FD, there has to be
a control op present whenever the non-Extra exceeds his-her subband
restrictions. That's a lot more onerous than turning down the power
to 50 W.

I stayed in my bands when I was a General at FD. Wasn't a
problem.


It's been so long since I had to worry about such things.....;-)

Back in the late '60s and early '70s, there were *four* FD power
levels: QRP, 50 W, 150 W, and the legal limit, IIRC.

Could be. But if we went back to that, the clubs could be
forced to
make a decision to either run what they would like to run, take
control ops away from available stations for those who don't have
time in grade. (or the proper upgrade) or make that little ghetto
for the second class Hams. I really don't think that is a good way
to welcome new people. YMMV.


There's another option: Change the rules so that different power
levels could be used for different stations in the same multi setup.
(It used to be this way!)

This might work well enough, but I still don't care for
relegating the
class B to the ghetto, or to remove an Extra or class A from
operating to be a control op.


Then let the Class Bs keep a log or feed the generator or cook
weenies. Or, heaven forbid, take the Class A test. Is it gonna kill
'em?

I know that the others I work with on field day wouldn't be too
wild
about that sort of thing either. These are people that love working
high power, and enjoy racking up points.


Uh-huh. How many points did they make per transmitter last year?

We were 3A

W3YA + W3GA (GOTA) did 7362 points - I don't have the breakdown for
each transmitter. We don't get any power multiplier at all, so what you
see is what we get.

Inexperienced users can get working
with us, but adding another station (and putting us in another class)
for a 50 watt station isn't going to be too popular with them - and
after all, they and myself are the ones doing the setup and teardown,
so as long as we are within the rules, we should be allowed to do
this. I just don't think that the proposed setup will be both newbie
friendly and experienced friendly at the same time.


Then the rules need some refining.


Note I'm not saying things couldn't work. I'm saying that every
time I
turn around, this proposal is bumping into something else, and not
necessarily in a good way.


So does any other proposal. FD is once a year. It's supposed to be a
learning experience, last time I checked.


It starts out pretty simply, but then we have
to do all kinds of things to shoehorn it into the real world. So we
end up changing this so can coexist with the thing we changed before
in order to avoid messing that up which came about as a result of
modifying the rule that contradicted...........


Then what's *your* solution, Mike?

I don't agree with all of Hans' ideas, but at least he's put forth a
coherent proposal.

I gave mine a while back, and I'll give it again.

Technician

General

Extra

Same rules as now. Tests expanded for General and Extra.

Minimum impact, and there ya go. Question pool change.


I'd have three license classes, all renewable, minimum 1 year in each
class experience required, power levels 100W, 400W, 1500W,
subbands-by-license-class on HF/MF, and better writtens.

And I'm still a little surprised, Jim. Perhaps I shouldn't point
out
any problems that will happen under Hans' proposal? I get the
impression from your answers - "so what" "that's their problem" "Uh
Huh" and the like, that you must think my objections are as Hans
describes me sometimes - "novel".

What the heck? Perhaps it's better if I just keep the old yap
shut?
Anytime things are changed, things are impacted. We can point them out
before hand, or run into them blind.

You might not think my concerns are valid, but I can tell you that
I
know plenty of people that have the same concerns. We are all novel I
guess! 8^) Maybe I point out small facts - but I've pointed out a
pretty fair number of them, and I'm not looking very hard. Any small
fact is insignificant by itself, but when a lot of them come up.....


- Mike KB3EIA -



I have a proposal of my own. Here it is.

All General and above become Class As, everyone else becomes a Class B.
Class As get all privileges. Class Bs get 80, 40, 15, 10 and everything
above that, i.e. everything any one of the equivalent licence classes had
before but whole bands, not just subbands. Only Class As could be VEs, and
I would limit Class Bs to 200W, i.e. Novice power level. No other limits,
restrictions, etc. of any kind.

The only losers would be Techs who could no longer run 1500W. I suspect
that few do, and that those who do would have no difficulty passing a
Class A test.

I think that this has the virtue of being more politically acceptable than
Hans' version.

73 de Alun, N3KIP