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December 26th 04, 06:30 PM

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4YZ) writes:

Subject: Problem for boaters and APRS?
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 12/21/2004 4:30 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4YZ) writes:

Subject: Problem for boaters and APRS?
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 12/20/2004 6:21 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4YZ) writes:

Snipped...

I think you want to avoid the hard facts, Steve.

No, Jim...I just don't need the editorializing of past events.

We know why Social Security was created...

What I wrote wasn't about why SS was created, but about why it could be in
trouble in the future. And as Hans, K0HB has pointed out, the 800 pound
gorilla
problem is the borrowing of money from the SS trust fund. Such borrowing is
fine unless and until it's not paid back.

I don't think FDR
ever imagined it being *******ized such as it has.

How is SS *******ized?

FDR's New Deal, like the Constitution, wasn't meant to be a static
unchanging
entity. He said so himself - if a program didn't work, it was to be changed
or
eliminated.

Jim, we are there already.

We are where?

When we have people "disabled" and collecting Social Security ( or other
entitlements which draw against it...) in their 30's without truly being
"disabled", then we ARE there.

Where?

I see it every day. And now we are seeing people in their 20's and
sometimes even "teens" who are claiming "disability", yet can drive,
socialize,
party, and even "work" in other revenue producing pursuits. But the SECOND
you
threaten that check every month, they suddenly become "sick bay commandos"
until the threat has resolved.

You mean plain old fraud. Yes, we have that in Social Security, Medicare,
Medicaid, veterans' benefits, disability, workmen's comp and various welfare
systems too. There's also fraud in private insurance claims.

Should all those systems be shut down because some people abuse them? I say no.

But the real solution is education and responsibility.

The real solution is to restore the program to what it was intended for,

Which is?

delete the drug abusers and lazy, and restore some basic civic
responsibilities.

How would you do that?

Hmmm?

Here's a bit of history:

How did I know we were in for this...???

Once upon a time....(I was right...)

...(up until about 40 years ago), there were lots of large
state
mental hospitals. (Snip to...)

Is any of what I wrote inaccurate?

Then came a whole bunch of new pharmaceuticals...(And further snip to...)

And most of the state mental institutions closed or were
radically
reduced in size, while the population grew. So a lot of the patients who
used
to be inside those institutions are now outside, trying to survive.

Are they really better off? Are we saving any money?

NONE of those mental health facility closings were due to the
introduction
of new pharmaceuticals, Jim.

Yes, they were. At least in part.

New pharmacueticals made it possible to de-institutionalize large numbers of
people with certain mental illnesses - *if* they took the pharmecuticals as
prescribed!

Look up how mental health care used to work - say in the 1940s and 50s, before
'modern' pharmecuticals existed. A considerable number of people were simply
locked up because nobody knew what else to do.

Those closings were due to the interventions of (A) "civil rights"
programs which insisted that those poor wretched souls had had their rights
denied to them,

That was part of it too. Books like "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" were
based on the reality of the old systems.

and (B) bean counters who thought that those monies could be
better spent elsewhere.

Those "bean counters" were politicians looking for ways to avoid spending money
on mental health care. After all, it *was* cheaper to buy the new
pharmecuticals for a mentally ill person than to institutionalize them.

Please note that those decisons were made by
Administrations wherein a Democrat was in the White House.

Who controlled the congress? How much of this was state-level and how much
federal? Most of the mental-health hospitals I know of were state operations,
not federal.

Did it all happen under Kennedy, Johnson and Carter, with none of it under
Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan or Bush?

Most of all - is any of what I wrote incorrect?

How about this: How about we rebuild and reopen all those mental health
hospitals, and reallow indefinite involuntary mental-health commitments? Would
probably cost less than what we're spending now on other solutions.

I do...More so than I ever thought Bill Clinton was...

Why? At least under Bill Clinton, the markets were rising, inflation was low
and the budget got balanced. Now Shrub is digging an enormous hole of debt
and yet giving the rich tax cuts.

BBBWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHA ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
!

Those "markets" were ALREADY "rising" under Bush the Elder!

Sure. The Dow was about 3600 when Clinton took office.

E V E R
Y
stock market indicator was "up" in the last year of Bush the Elders term,

Yet he lost the election. Boo hoo hoo.

and
CLAIMS by the Clinton administration within the first 90 days of his
presidency
(and before a SINGLE Clintonian plan had been implimented) that the markets
were already responding just on the strength of Clinton PROMISES were
absolutely ludicrous then, and are absolutely ludicrous today!

No more ludicrous than Shrub's claim.

And BTW, Jim, at an average of $48 to $53K a year, I have not had my
taxes
LOWER since before Jimmy Carter! I am HARDLY "rich" ! ! ! !

First off, look at your income vs. inflation. If your income hasn't kept pace
with inflation, it's a good bet that some of your taxes will drop.

Second, look at your life situation. Were you married, did you own a home, have
dependent children, or itemize deductions back in Carter's time? Where in the
USA did you live? Changes in all those areas affect some taxes.

Third, when you say your taxes are lower, which taxes are you including or
excluding? Most people see their federal income tax in big bold numbers because
they or their accountant figures it out every year.

But what about other taxes? Add up how much you pay in SS, Medicare, sales
taxes, excise taxes, real estate taxes, state income and wage taxes, etc. Look
at the big picture, not just one item, then see if your taxes are lower.

Finally, remember that it's easy to lower taxes if you don't mind piling up
debt, and easy to balance the budget if you don't mind raising taxes like
crazy.

What was the national debt in Carter's time? What is it today? How much of your
taxes went to pay the interest on the debt loans then and now?

73 de Jim, N2EY