OK, here is my summary table for up to 8 radials, 66 feet long, insulated
wire, laying on the ground: (all measurements at the shack end of 55' of
LMR-400 coax, buried)

Radials 2:1 Fo 2:1 BW Z VSWR @ Fo
0 3340 3522 3920 580 36,0 1.3
2 3354 3524 3774 420 45,0 1.0
4 3419 3533 3741 322 60,1 1.2
8 3445 3550 3742 297 65,4 1.3

The formatting is bad, but in order, left to right:

Number of Radials
Lower 2:1 vswr point
Resonant Freq point
Upper 2:1 point
Bandwidth in kilohertz
Impedance as shown on the MFJ 269 at resonance.

I'm a bit confused by the rising feedpoint impedance with increased radial
numbers, but the narrowing down of the bandwidth indicates decreased losses.
It also indicates (since it continues to decrease), that I should add
another 8 radials to see if I begin approaching the asymptote (sp?). The
rate of change is slowing quite a bit.

Any input as to explanations and the data are most welcome.

....hasan, N0AN

p.s. Performance seems quite good for a VERY limited sample. A w6 this
morning was 2 to 3 S-units stronger on the inverted L than on the 45' high
Carolina Windom 80. An LU6 was coming in S9 with an S5 noise level, and
responded with a 59+ signal report on the first call. A sampling of other
signals prior to or shortly after sunrise is showing a clear superiority of
the inverted L with 8 radials over the CW 80, at distances 1500 km. Less
than that distance and either antenna could have the upper hand until one
gets to within the state of Iowa. I'll have to do more measurements to get a
firm idea as to where the cross-over point is between the two antennas.
"hasan schiers" wrote in message
...
45' high, 25.8 sloping wire at the top, 29 feet high at the far end. #12
THHN Insulated copper wire, stranded.

Predicted Radiation Resistance: 25.8 ohms, very good ground (rich
pastoral, midwest).

With no radials, I get a flat 50 ohm match at 3595 khz. Obviously this
would indicate ground losses of approximately 25 ohms, if I'm thinking
about this right. Also, predicted efficiency would then be 50 %
(25/(25+25), indicating a 3 dB loss. Forgetting about fresnel region
losses, this seems to be better than I had expected. 2:1 vswr bandwidth is
very broad....broader than what I get with EZnec 4.x with a 25 ohm load in
the base.

This means one of two things to me:

Either my ground losses are much higher than the 25 ohms I'm indirectly
calculating, or I have made some sort of conceptual error in thinking
about what the implications are of a 25 or 26 ohm feedpoint. All my
references point toward a 25 ohm radiation resistance for my 42' vertical
x 25.8 ft inverted L (with sloping top wire instead of flat top wire).
What is wrong with my logic here? If the R(rad) is 25 ohms, and I measure
a flat VSWR (on two other meters) at 3600 khz, then isn't the remaining 25
ohms, ground loss?

I also show about 37 ohms resistance and 0 ohms reactance at 3600 khz with
my MFJ-269, which is really confusing, in that if I have 25 ohms for Rrad,
then I have 13 ohms of ground losses. Further, 37 ohms is around 1.3 to 1.
So I have two other vswr meters showing 1:1 at 3600, and the MFJ showing
37 ohms. This is a pretty large percentage difference.

I would be inclined to believe the 25.8 ohms predicted by both EZnec 4 and
the Low Band DX'rs Handbook. In any case, I'll put out 4 radials tomorrow
morning and repeat all my measurements, looking for narrowing bandwidth
and lowered input Z as my ground losses decrease.

Ultimately, I'm going to put down 16, 66' radials, in steps of four,
taking measurements of input Z (mfj-269) and vswr bandwidth for 2:1, at
0,4,8 and 16 radials. I'll report what happens as I go along.

Anywho, without any radials at all there are quite a few distant signals
on 80m this evening, that are consistently louder on the newly installed
inverted L, than on my Carolina Windom at 45'. Most signals as one pans
the band, are louder (at 2 hours after sunset) on the C. Windom than on
the radial-less inverted L, but ones from several states away are equal or
better on the radial-less inverted L. Both seem to make good sense at
this point. I sure will be interested to see the effects of 4 and then 8
and on up radials, but that is going to take a few days, because I don't
want to make radial changes unless I have access to low angle signals,
which only happens at night or just before sunrise.

Tomorrow is radial day. I will be laying out 4 radials 65' long to begin
with. I have resistance and reactance measurements every 50 khz as a
baseline, before installing radials. 4 in the early morning, 4 more just
before sunset, then 4 more the next morning, and the final 4 the next
evening. #14 THHN stranded insulated copper wire for the radials, btw.

Depending on what I end up seeing for "effect" I'll go to 24 or 32 radials
by winter....but only if the improvement is both measurable and
"observable on the air"...radials are a pain in the rear (or more
accurately, the knees) to put in.

What fun!

...hasan, N0AN