David , you did not refute anything t said so I don't know if you
agreed with what I said so we could move onto the next step.....or...
you could show me what part you disagree with and why. That is the
purpose of a debate but it is not to be and you are being left on your
own by others that could have contributed and supported you I suppose
that if you hurled abuse
you would had people climbing over each other to follow you just for
the fun of it which is what ham radio is coming down to.
Time will tell
best regards and thankyou for supplying your side of the discussion
Art



Dave wrote:
sorry, you just aren't grasping the basics so any further discussion is
pointless. make up your own definitions, write the formulas, and publish a
paper and maybe if it gets accepted in a decent periodical i'll read it and
understand.

"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
O.K. David
you have had some time to settle down so let us look at the things you
have raised and you apparently have the book by Ramos and co
Yes Gauss defines the surface as you pointed out but the arbitary
border encloses charges that are in equilibrium which is three
dimensional. When you follow his thinking regarding the energy inside
of the arbitary border he invokes a surface for a vector determination.
I therefore submit that the Gaussian field is a closed surface by
virtue of equilibrium and how he uses the surface as a foundation for
his law. Look at the chapter in the book and examine the drawing that
is used to explain the formation of Gaussian law and you will see it is
three dimensional. The arbitriness that is implied depends purelyon the
makeup of that which is in equilibrium and where in its ideal shape
would be circular. but where two charges are close to each other the
field surounding those charges will be at a minimum at a point between
then such that the arbitary border surface shape will change.

Now let us look at the time factor of an element which is energised for
a short space of time.
As the current flows for a half wave it travels forward and on the
surface where all the applied energy resides which is very important to
us as the moment the current penetrates decay begins and we what to
account for all the energy applied and not only what is left on the
surface since excess charges must reside on the surface. That statement
is very important for full understanding) So we really talking about a
small moment in time ie "dt" and you will see that term in formular
applied to skin depth.
So we apply a time varying energy that runs on the surface in one
direction it then reverses direction at a certain depth in the
dielectric at which time it has removed itself from the surface,
encountered a resistance to flow and starts the decay process.So a
short space of time is just long enough for a charge to move such that
a electric charge is implanted on the surface which then goes on to
generate a magnetic field which is a very short moment of time. . At
that short moment in time we have implanted a static charge with a
vector value of zero an accumulation of which can be called a
CONSERVATIVE field. That vector tho of zero value is a electric vector
and a magnetic vector outherwise known as "curl" but since it is of
zero value it constitutes as a static charge.
That should be enough for a while for you to cogitate upon.
Regards
Art



Dave wrote:
"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
In the thread Rain static I referred to a closed surface which is
clearly
defined by Gauss's law.

Gauss's law doesn't define a surface, the surface is any arbitrary
surface
surrounding a charge.

Let us now look at a time vary field applied to

a dielectric. I fht efield is applied for the shortest of time the
charges
will stay on the surface. If time is longer than the shortest space of
time

you make it sound like there is some 'shortest' time where charges won't
move. this is not true. no matter how short you make the time it will
move
the charges.

then charges will openetrate the closed surface. If the surface is an
insulator type then it takes a long while to penetrate but if the
surface

Here you mix up 'surface' and 'surface'. the gauss's law 'surface' is a
mathematically useful construction around a charge, it does not have any
charge 'on' it, nor is there any 'penetration' of it by charge in gauss's
law. it is strictly a non-material thing that is used only for
calculation
purposes.

is a good conductor then the charges will penetrate very quickly so
we can associate the time constant of penetration to the subject of
skin depth. If we are to associate the time varying field to a
gaussian field

you have yet to define a 'gaussian field'. gauss's law applies to
electric
fields and their relation to charges.

all the excess charges must be on the surface by law.

only in a 'perfect' conductor. dielectrics and 'empty' space can have
distributed charges throughout.

Or in other words
the time evolved must be shorter than the time required to begin
penetration.

huh? it just goes down hill from here. write some equations, do some
drawings, publish a manuscript. all the rest is empty handwaving based
on
incorrect assumptions and missing definitions.

Thus for a short space of time all charges are on the surface and the
charges
have a magnhe radiating eneetic and electric field vectors. Just having
charges is not enough to convert to a gaussian field in that a gaussian
field must be in equilibrium thus a cluster of elements
must have the direction of the surface charges change in unison. For a
cluster of elements to do this they must all be resonant such that the
charges reach the ends of the elements at the same time. Resonance of
an element is determined by its diameter and its length and because it
is coupled to other elements in the cluster the coupling must be taken
into account to secure resonance of not only the individual elements
but of the cluster as a whole. When this is accomplished the charges on
the surface of the closed volume are in equilibrium but onty for that
shortest of short time and where that time is added to the gaussian
formulae for the transition to be complete. For the Gaussian field or
volume we can say the energy inside the gaussian field is equal to that
supplied by flux to the outside of the border and remember the flux
inside consists of magnetic and electric vectoirs. We now can say that
in a moment of time the flux produced from each element that breaches
the border in summation with the other elements is equal to the
radiating field outside of the border when each element energy makes
the transmittion. Thus the summation of each of the clustered elements
individual energy when the vectors are given a value
must equal the flux on the outside of the border that produces
radiation. We also know that if we have a cluster of elements that are
clustered together we can obtain radiation by just applying a time
varing field to just one of the elements and by virtue of intercoupling
all the radiating energy
will leave the near field. Thus we have two different methods of
determining the value of the radiated field
! radiation from the clustered within a Gaussian field and
2 radiation from an array of coupled elements
Since the elements within the cluster are all of the same "Q'" the
determination of all factors
in the resulting equation are simplified to Ohms law and where the
laborious coupling calculations
are omitted. The above describes in first principles as to how a
Gaussian field in a short space of time can be equated to a radiating
cluster using existing laws of the masters which also embraces NEC
code. Now many have said I have no understanding of radiation concepts
so go ahead and tear this apart and have a merry Xmas doing it
Art Unwin KB9MZ..........XG