Thanks to all for all the information you have provided, including the
latest thread on "ground rods at base of tower". The explanations
received were very well thought out and comprehensive, and make all the
sense in the world when one stops to think for a minute... :-)

Now the fun begins.

I went down to the electrical supply house and bought 3 8-ft ground rods
and started driving one in at about a 45 degree angle under the window of
the shack.

As expected, I am having one hell of a time getting it into the ground.

Every little while I stop and put a pencil mark on the rod down near the
ground, and beat the end of the rod 10 or 15 more times, then look to see
if the pencil mark has moved. So far it is moving but not much... but at
least it's moving so presumably I haven't hit immovable rock yet.

Someone said something about an electric hammer and that I could drive
the rod into the ground in "minutes". If I go to try to rent one of those,
what should I be looking for?

Also, when I bought the ground rods the guy at the electrical shop showed
me something called a Sluggo-Ox (www.sluggo-ox.com), touted as "the
ultimate ground rod driving tool". It's not much more than a heavy block
of tempered steel with a hole in one end that you place over the rod, and
a LARGE head on the other end that you hit with your hammer. It claims to
makes it easier to actually hit the end of the rod (which I am doing only
about 60 percent of the time when I swing the sledgehammer). It also
costs $120 (!!), at least that's what this place charges for it. I'm
almost ready to go get one if it will help. Well, maybe not quite "almost"
ready... ;-)

Anything else that will make the job a little easier? I gave up for the
day after about an hour and a half (it started raining so I figured that
was as good an excuse as I needed...)... figured on starting in again on
Sunday (tomorrow is booked...).

"Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T)" wrote in
news

Someone said something about an electric hammer and that I could drive
the rod into the ground in "minutes". If I go to try to rent one of
those, what should I be looking for?

I made the adapter for mine from a regular bull point which was cut off,
annealed and drilled with a blind 15.1 mm hole, then re-tempered. The
sytem drives rods is as quick as you can climb down the ladder. I have
driven 24' electrodes (3 x 8' with couplers) using this system.

No doubt they can be purchased, but you may be able to rent the hammer
and driver. If you cannot rent a driver specific to earth electrods, you
may be able to get a driver for star pickets (or whatever you call them)
and make a small adapter to keep the electrode centred in the adapter.

See how you think after you have hit your hand a couple of times!

You will see articles on the net describing drilling a hole with a hose
and a peice of pipe. I have reservations about this, because it is no
longer a drive electrode. I have not seen this method used by commercial
applications and I suspect that if one was contracted to drive
electrodes, this would not be an acceptable method.

Owen

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 02:04:34 +0000, Owen Duffy wrote:

You will see articles on the net describing drilling a hole with a hose
and a peice of pipe. I have reservations about this, because it is no
longer a drive electrode. I have not seen this method used by commercial
applications and I suspect that if one was contracted to drive
electrodes, this would not be an acceptable method.

Good evening, Owen.

I just started a new thread on this, titled "Using a copper water pipe in
place of a ground rod?". That was after I looked for the above paragraph
from you and didn't find it until just now.

I'd like to know why you think it's not acceptable, but I'll continue this
in that thread.

"Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T)" wrote in message
news

Thanks to all for all the information you have provided, including the
latest thread on "ground rods at base of tower". The explanations
received were very well thought out and comprehensive, and make all the
sense in the world when one stops to think for a minute... :-)

Now the fun begins.

I went down to the electrical supply house and bought 3 8-ft ground rods
and started driving one in at about a 45 degree angle under the window of
the shack.

As expected, I am having one hell of a time getting it into the ground.

Every little while I stop and put a pencil mark on the rod down near the
ground, and beat the end of the rod 10 or 15 more times, then look to see
if the pencil mark has moved. So far it is moving but not much... but at
least it's moving so presumably I haven't hit immovable rock yet.


If it is regular ground and not rocks it is easy to put ground rods in with
just your hands and a gallon or two of water, maybe less.

Dig out a hole about 4 or 5 inches in diameter and about that deep. Fill
it with water. Put the ground rod in the center of that hole and push it
down. Then pull it back slightly. Doing this several times you should be
able to get to get it down several inches with each cycle. Keep doing this
without stopping. If you get to about 3 or 4 feet put the rod all the way
out and fill the hole with water . Put the rod back in the same hole and
keep pushing and pulling it a few inches at a time. You may want to wear
gloves. I usually put a pair of Vice Grip pliers on the rod to act as a
handle to get a beter grip.

Using this method I sunk two ground rods in the ground in about 15 minuits
or less for each.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 02:21:58 +0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:

If it is regular ground and not rocks it is easy to put ground rods in with
just your hands and a gallon or two of water, maybe less.

Dig out a hole about 4 or 5 inches in diameter and about that deep. Fill
it with water. Put the ground rod in the center of that hole and push it
down. Then pull it back slightly. Doing this several times you should be
able to get to get it down several inches with each cycle. Keep doing this
without stopping. If you get to about 3 or 4 feet put the rod all the way
out and fill the hole with water . Put the rod back in the same hole and
keep pushing and pulling it a few inches at a time. You may want to wear
gloves. I usually put a pair of Vice Grip pliers on the rod to act as a
handle to get a beter grip.

Using this method I sunk two ground rods in the ground in about 15 minuits
or less for each.

I was shown this method about ten years ago (had one of those, "D'oh! Why
didn't *I* think of that!" slapping forehead moments) and have put in
several rods with the technique. The last foot or so may require using a
sledge hammer, but that is a lot less swinging and the end of the rod is
more stable so your hit to knuckle ratio increases dramatically!

Rocks? Well, you're pretty much screwed unless it's thin layer of shale
and you're using a commercial driver. Even then, I've heard of stories of
the rod making a U-turn and coming back up out of the ground!

A number of years ago a couple of us were grounding a site in the Kansas
Flint Hills. As luck would have it, the limestone layer was almost
exactly four feet below the surface and our Hilti driver just bounced on
the end of the rod when the layer was reached. So, we wound up cutting the
rods off, going out another eight feet on the runs and driving the other
half in and bonding the whole works together. The site has been reliable
as far as I know.

For a lighting ground there is no such thing as too good of a ground.
Sometimes, though, there is only so much you can do and that will have to
suffice.

73, de Nate

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds,
the pessimist fears this is true."

Rick wrote:

Someone said something about an electric hammer and that I could drive
the rod into the ground in "minutes". If I go to try to rent one of those,
what should I be looking for?

Rental yards call them "demolition hammers"... available in various forms
(electric, pneumatic, etc) and sizes (45#, 60#, 90#, etc).

Also, when I bought the ground rods the guy at the electrical shop showed
me something called a Sluggo-Ox (www.sluggo-ox.com), touted as "the
ultimate ground rod driving tool". It's not much more than a heavy block
of tempered steel with a hole in one end that you place over the rod, and
a LARGE head on the other end that you hit with your hammer. It claims to
makes it easier to actually hit the end of the rod (which I am doing only
about 60 percent of the time when I swing the sledgehammer). It also
costs $120 (!!), at least that's what this place charges for it. I'm
almost ready to go get one if it will help. Well, maybe not quite "almost"
ready... ;-)

Perhaps your local rental yard has something like this for rent -- the
general term would be "slide-hammer".

Anything else that will make the job a little easier? I gave up for the
day after about an hour and a half (it started raining so I figured that
was as good an excuse as I needed...)... figured on starting in again on
Sunday (tomorrow is booked...).

Saturating the ground may help a little (or a lot). I've used the garden
hose left on a trickle with the end of the hose against the ground rod.

Bryan WA7PRC

Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T) wrote:

I went down to the electrical supply house and bought 3 8-ft ground
rods and started driving one in at about a 45 degree angle under the
window of the shack.

As expected, I am having one hell of a time getting it into the ground.

Every little while I stop and put a pencil mark on the rod down near
the ground, and beat the end of the rod 10 or 15 more times, then look
to see if the pencil mark has moved. So far it is moving but not
much... but at least it's moving so presumably I haven't hit immovable
rock yet.

Someone said something about an electric hammer and that I could drive
the rod into the ground in "minutes". If I go to try to rent one of
those, what should I be looking for?

There's a potential language gap here, but "electric hammers" fall into
three broad groups. Working downward in size:

3. Electric hammers that are the size and weight of a small road drill
- too big for this job.

2. Smaller "hammer drills" that are a two-handed heft but weigh less
than 10 pounds (sometimes known as the "4 kilogram" class). These are
combination rotary/hammer drills which can also be used for pure rotary
drilling, pure impact hammering. The drill bits have a splined end that
snaps into the chuck, and the whole system is usually known as "SDS
Plus" (not the same as the "SDS Max" which is used in some of the
larger drills).

1. One-handed SDS+ drills that look like a stretched version of an
ordinary electric hand drill (sometimes known as the "2 kilogram"
class).

And below those, I should add:

0. Ordinary electric drills with a hammer option - useless for this
particular job.

As well as having the splined chuck, the SDS+ system is like a miniature
air hammer that delivers a very sharp impact. Forget your old percussion
electric drill - this is in a totally different league. In rotary hammer
drilling, the drill bits go through hard masonry and stone like cheese!
The 2kg size is the best option for general home improvement (you
quickly get tired of holding a 4kg drill) and it's truly wonderful to
hold all that drilling power in one hand.

(Sorry, all of us SDS owners get carried away like this... but it
genuinely *is* that good.)

SDS+ drills and accessories don't seem to be as common in the USA as
they are in Europe, and maybe the "SDS" label isn't so prominent; but
they are easy enough to find, once you're aware that they exist.

Any SDS+ drill with the "rotary stop" option will make a very effective
hammer for earth rods. The dead weight of the drill makes very little
difference - what does the driving is the sharpness of the hammer-blows.
All SDS drills have that feature, so a 2kg-class drill will do fine.

You can buy/rent a special ground rod driving attachment. This is simply
a hollow tube that drops loosely over the end of the ground rod, and on
the other end a splined stub that snaps into the SDS+ chuck. However, a
better and cheaper option is an SDS-to-0.5in square socket drive
adaptor, because you can snap on a different sized socket to match the
diameter of the rod.

In normal soil, a "2kg-class" drill on its hammer-only setting will sink
a 4ft ground rod in minutes. But now we come to "ledge"...

The good news is that with the rotary-hammer action you can drill 3ft
pilot holes into just about anything. A 10mm diameter makes a good pilot
hole for a 3/8in rod, and SDS+ drill bits are readily available in
lengths as long as 1.0m. The hammer action still works, even at such a
long distance away from the drill chuck (though you need a shorter drill
to get started). Having drilled your pilot hole, and cleared it very
thoroughly of small pieces of rock and grit, you can then hammer in your
rod. That means you can place a guaranteed 3ft of earthing rod wherever
you want it.

The bad news is that, in hard rock, anything beyond the 3ft depth of
your pilot hole may be completely impossible - you may just have to cut
off the extra length and settle for what you've got.

The even worse news is that rods sunk into hard rock may be totally
useless as earth electrodes.

For example, the hill that we live on looks like lush green
pasture-land, but it's actually huge heap of glacial boulders of all
sizes, with a very thin covering of soil. Any vertical rod is almost
sure to hit something hard in the first few inches below the surface. It
may be a small pebble, or it may be the hill itself. The first 3ft rod
that I placed measured 600 ohms, which was a total waste of time. After
two years of steady rainfall and bedding-in, the resistance had improved
to... 500 ohms!

The earth connection that really works here (1.2 ohms) is the water
pipe, which runs a long way horizontally through the very wettest level
of soil, just on top of the rock. It isn't strictly "to code" in this
country either, but would I disconnect it? - not on my life!



--

73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek

In article ,
Ian White GM3SEK wrote:

Any SDS+ drill with the "rotary stop" option will make a very effective
hammer for earth rods.

Ian-

I found SDA+ hammer drills in a couple of the local hardware stores
today. The smallest was around 3 kilograms (6.5 pounds), but I suspect
is the "2 kilogram" class you refer to.

One question the sales people couldn't answer, was what you meant by
"rotary stop". The drills I saw all had a linear stop in the form of a
rod that can be adjusted to stop penetration of the drill bit at a
desired depth. Do you mean that kind of stop, or do you mean something
like stopping rotary action, leaving only the hammering action?

Fred
K4DII

Fred McKenzie wrote:
In article ,
Ian White GM3SEK wrote:

Any SDS+ drill with the "rotary stop" option will make a very effective
hammer for earth rods.

Ian-

I found SDA+ hammer drills in a couple of the local hardware stores
today. The smallest was around 3 kilograms (6.5 pounds), but I suspect
is the "2 kilogram" class you refer to.

Probably... the "2 kilogram" drills look like a stretched version of a
normal pistol-grip drill, with a horizontal motor. For example:
http://tinyurl.com/33zcrr
http://tinyurl.com/3algeq

(I have no idea why the store calls one of these drills "3/4-inch" and
the other "7/8inch". There is only ONE size of SDS+ chuck and drill
shank.)


The "4 kilogram" drills are "L-shaped" with a vertical motor, and are
much heavier and harder to control. For example:
http://tinyurl.com/37w97w

For most applications the extra power of the 4kg drill is not necessary
- certainly not for hammering or drilling for grounds rods.

One question the sales people couldn't answer, was what you meant by
"rotary stop". The drills I saw all had a linear stop in the form of a
rod that can be adjusted to stop penetration of the drill bit at a
desired depth. Do you mean that kind of stop, or do you mean something
like stopping rotary action, leaving only the hammering action?

That's correct. The rod is usually known as a "depth stop".

Check for the following features:

1. "Rotary stop": ability to stop rotation and use hammer only. On
better drills, this also allows the chuck to be locked in a number of
pre-set positions for use with a chisel bit.

2. "Hammer stop": ability to switch off the hammer action. Very good for
starting holes in exactly the right location.

3. Safety clutch: DON'T BUY a drill that doesn't have one!

4. Very good trigger-operated speed control, that will allow the drill
to be started at a slow crawl. This is something that you can only check
by trying the drill in the store.

More information:
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/powertools/sds.htm


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek

In article ,
Ian White GM3SEK wrote:

Probably... the "2 kilogram" drills look like a stretched version of a
normal pistol-grip drill, with a horizontal motor. For example:
http://tinyurl.com/33zcrr

Ian-

Your first example is the one I was looking at.

Neither store had anything like a Ground Rod adapter or half inch socket
adapter in stock. I searched the web and was not able to find a ground
rod adapter compatible with SDS+. I found one comment that such an
adapter would not be sufficiently strong to withstand the forces
required to drive a ground rod. There were several references to an
SDS-Max adapter, but that may not be compatible with SDS+. Yes, the
prices were high!

I did find references to a half inch socket adapter. It is a Hitachi
"1/2 inch Chemical Anchor Adapter", Code No. 303044.

Fred
K4DII