The 1994 ARRL Handbook states that I should avoid any contact between
reinforcement bars and metallic objects in the base of the tower, itself,
since it would provide a direct discharge path for lightning through the
base. "Should such a discharge occur, the concrete base would likely
explode and bring about the collapse of the tower."

Another amateur and myself argued over whether, in the entire history of the
world, this ever happened???? Has anyone or do you know of anyone directly
that has had catastrophic failure of a tower, because of the concrete base
exploding? This seems like a rather remote possibility, but I'd like to
hear any horror stories you might have with this and whether anyone has
photos of an "exploded concrete base" due to lightning.

I realize its certainly possible and the physics is there to make it happen,
but has anyone screwed up a tower so badly that the concrete base exploded
and the tower collapsed??

Thanks & 73,

Jason

Jason Dugas wrote:
The 1994 ARRL Handbook states that I should avoid any contact between
reinforcement bars and metallic objects in the base of the tower, itself,
since it would provide a direct discharge path for lightning through the
base. "Should such a discharge occur, the concrete base would likely
explode and bring about the collapse of the tower."

Another amateur and myself argued over whether, in the entire history of the
world, this ever happened???? Has anyone or do you know of anyone directly
that has had catastrophic failure of a tower, because of the concrete base
exploding? This seems like a rather remote possibility, but I'd like to
hear any horror stories you might have with this and whether anyone has
photos of an "exploded concrete base" due to lightning.

I realize its certainly possible and the physics is there to make it happen,
but has anyone screwed up a tower so badly that the concrete base exploded
and the tower collapsed??

Thanks & 73,

Jason

Beaten to death many times in this news group.

Do a google search of this group with the terms concrete lightning explosion
and see LOTS of discussion.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

"Jason Dugas" wrote in message
...
The 1994 ARRL Handbook states that I should avoid any contact between
reinforcement bars and metallic objects in the base of the tower, itself,
since it would provide a direct discharge path for lightning through the
base. "Should such a discharge occur, the concrete base would likely
explode and bring about the collapse of the tower."

Another amateur and myself argued over whether, in the entire history of
the
world, this ever happened???? Has anyone or do you know of anyone
directly
that has had catastrophic failure of a tower, because of the concrete base
exploding? This seems like a rather remote possibility, but I'd like to
hear any horror stories you might have with this and whether anyone has
photos of an "exploded concrete base" due to lightning.

I realize its certainly possible and the physics is there to make it
happen,
but has anyone screwed up a tower so badly that the concrete base exploded
and the tower collapsed??

Thanks & 73,

Jason


it is possible for steam explosions to blow pieces out of the surface of
concrete structures but i have never heard of one big enough to damage a
base enough to threaten the structure.

wrote in message ...

Beaten to death many times in this news group.

Do a google search of this group with the terms concrete lightning explosion
and see LOTS of discussion.

And I did, but I do not think 20 hits are a LOT of discussion. All of
them are 'what if' and other theoretical stuf. None of them however
claim they really had an explosion and tower collapse....

Together with Jason, I am also very curious about 'real experiences'.

Arie

wrote:
wrote in message ...

Beaten to death many times in this news group.

Do a google search of this group with the terms concrete lightning explosion
and see LOTS of discussion.

And I did, but I do not think 20 hits are a LOT of discussion. All of
them are 'what if' and other theoretical stuf. None of them however
claim they really had an explosion and tower collapse....

Together with Jason, I am also very curious about 'real experiences'.

Arie

About 20 threads, but a lot of discussion.

A quote from a book by Polyphaser can be found at:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...k.n et&rnum=8


"It is a common misconception to think that a lightning strike will blow up
a concrete pad. However, consider first, a myth-perpetuating case of an
improperly designed system where the tower leg "J"-bolts are imbedded
directly into the concrete pad. In this case, due to the poor nature of the
tower ground system, each of these Jbolts will actually share a significant
amount of strike current which in turn will flow through the concrete. Since
the surface area interface between the J-bolts and the concrete is small,
the surge current density is very large. The corresponding heat generated
by the energy transfer can turn the concrete moisture into steam and possibly
crack the pad. We have only seen this happen once on a mountain top in the
Nevada desert. However, a few poorly implemented occurrences can give a
valuable technique a bad reputation. If during construction, all of the
rebar in the concrete pad becomes an integral part of your ground system,
the overall surge current density will be several orders of magnitude lower
than the myth-perpetuating case above. With the surge current distributed
over all of the rebar there will be little to no opportunity to develop the
temperatures necessary to vaporize the imbedded moisture. The pad will not
crack."

In other words, do it right, weld it all together and there is no problem.

I suppose someone could do a really horrid installation and...

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

wrote in message
...
wrote:

In other words, do it right, weld it all together and there is no problem.

OH NO! don't say that! but i guess its too late, the weld vs tie argument
is probably already off and running.

Dave wrote:

wrote in message
...
wrote:

In other words, do it right, weld it all together and there is no problem.

OH NO! don't say that! but i guess its too late, the weld vs tie argument
is probably already off and running.

If you search through the archives, you will find the references from
reputable sources (i.e. manufacturers and engineers that do it for a living
as opposed to Joe from Peach Pit GA) that say the weld prevents (relative)
high resistance hot spots from occurring.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:13:36 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

wrote:
wrote in message ...

Beaten to death many times in this news group.

Do a google search of this group with the terms concrete lightning explosion
and see LOTS of discussion.

And I did, but I do not think 20 hits are a LOT of discussion. All of
them are 'what if' and other theoretical stuf. None of them however
claim they really had an explosion and tower collapse....

Together with Jason, I am also very curious about 'real experiences'.

Arie

About 20 threads, but a lot of discussion.

A quote from a book by Polyphaser can be found at:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...k.n et&rnum=8


"It is a common misconception to think that a lightning strike will blow up
a concrete pad. However, consider first, a myth-perpetuating case of an
improperly designed system where the tower leg "J"-bolts are imbedded
directly into the concrete pad. In this case, due to the poor nature of the
tower ground system, each of these Jbolts will actually share a significant
amount of strike current which in turn will flow through the concrete. Since
the surface area interface between the J-bolts and the concrete is small,
the surge current density is very large. The corresponding heat generated
by the energy transfer can turn the concrete moisture into steam and possibly
crack the pad. We have only seen this happen once on a mountain top in the
Nevada desert. However, a few poorly implemented occurrences can give a
valuable technique a bad reputation. If during construction, all of the
rebar in the concrete pad becomes an integral part of your ground system,
the overall surge current density will be several orders of magnitude lower
than the myth-perpetuating case above. With the surge current distributed
over all of the rebar there will be little to no opportunity to develop the
temperatures necessary to vaporize the imbedded moisture. The pad will not
crack."

In other words, do it right, weld it all together and there is no problem.

I suppose someone could do a really horrid installation and...


If you read a little farther they also recommend that the tower
concrete rebar not be the only ground for the tower. Other ground rods
and radials are also recommended.

I have seen a couple of tower pads partially exploded from lightning
strikes. These were on towers that the J bolts were just in the
concrete and not attached to the rebar and no other ground connection
to the tower legs. It blew a chunk of concrete out exposing one of the
J bolts almost completely.

For the handbook to recommend not having contact with metal objects in
the tower base, I wonder how they think the tower should be attached
to the concrete base?

73
Gary K4FMX

wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:

wrote in message
...
wrote:

In other words, do it right, weld it all together and there is no
problem.

OH NO! don't say that! but i guess its too late, the weld vs tie
argument
is probably already off and running.

If you search through the archives, you will find the references from
reputable sources (i.e. manufacturers and engineers that do it for a
living
as opposed to Joe from Peach Pit GA) that say the weld prevents (relative)
high resistance hot spots from occurring.

and if you search through other archives you will find that only in special
cases, and with very specific requirements, is welding of rebar done. the
standard method is wire ties and is quite adequate for tower bases.

wrote:
Dave wrote:

wrote in message
...
wrote:

In other words, do it right, weld it all together and there is no problem.

OH NO! don't say that! but i guess its too late, the weld vs tie argument
is probably already off and running.

If you search through the archives, you will find the references from
reputable sources (i.e. manufacturers and engineers that do it for a living
as opposed to Joe from Peach Pit GA) that say the weld prevents (relative)
high resistance hot spots from occurring.


We have a 100' free standing tower. The J-bolts are welded to the
rebar and the tower is also grounded with an additional ground
system. The tower takes a LOT of direct hits. Up to now we had
neither problem with the concrete base nor with the equipment.
All antennas are grounded too, of course.
Does this count as anecdotal evidence?

Kind regards, Eike from the land of lightning