The saddest problems I have found with the HP gear is purely their own
fault. When they made the horizontal timing knobs for their 80's
vintage scopes, they made them out of plastic, and carved large slots in
the space between the outer part you turn with your fingers and the
inner part that turns the knob. This left very little plastic to take
the torque of turning the knob. Once they break there is no easy way
of repairing them.

The other big problem is their use of delrin gears with aluminum hubs
just about everywhere. And after 15 years, they are all broken. The
HP8640B is built like a tank, but everyone I have ever had came with
several gears that had split due to shrinkage.

-Chuck

RP Jones wrote:
With out doubt, most new hardware looks like its built to be thrown away
and crushed.
"Built in absolesance" Its a dam shame !
Id agree on Tek for scopes and HP for analyzers, if you look on Ebay HP
"as is" scopes with problems must out number the Tek's 10-1.
(Many developed push button/switchpad related problems)

"gw" wrote in message isn't it true that the older
stuff is built like a battleship and

isn't as proprietary and can be repaired with user obtainable parts?
I always heard tek for scopes and hp for analyzers. Any thoughts on
that?

Looked like English to me. What part of it did you not understand?

jak

"Bill Turner" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 03:21:29 GMT, "RP Jones"
wrote:

I had called Tek to enquire about a 465 B faceplate, this guy totally
"lost
his wig" before I even got to speak about owning a 2232.
$^% 465 !! jokingly told me "THIS ISN'T SANFORD AND SON"

__________________________________________________ _______

I've read the above several times and can't quite figure out what you're
complaining about. Try it again in English.

--
Bill, W6WRT

Mike Knudsen wrote:

[ text edited with hard CR/LF to fit 80 columns ]
It's bad to trash a good used O-scope, but how about this?

There was a big music store around Pittsburgh that sold electronic organs.
Big ones, with a lot of sales to churches. When they made a sale to a
church, they promised to haul away the old pipe organ. Well, the first
thing they would do is put an axe thru all the pipes and mechnaisms of
that pipe organ, rather than have some other church use it to fix up
their "obsolete" pipe organ, rather than buy a new electronic job from
you-know-who.

This brings tears to my eyes. There are many ways of disposing of
used pipe organ parts to build hybrids, destroying is not one of them.

Don K6LTS
Nor-Cal/ATOS
See our website at http://www.theatreorgans.com/norcal/
email: take out the garbage

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:46:28 -0500, Chuck Harris
wrote:

The saddest problems I have found with the HP gear is purely their own
fault. When they made the horizontal timing knobs for their 80's
vintage scopes, they made them out of plastic, and carved large slots in
the space between the outer part you turn with your fingers and the
inner part that turns the knob. This left very little plastic to take
the torque of turning the knob. Once they break there is no easy way
of repairing them.
That sounds just like the knobs used in the HT 32, 33, and SX101
series. They have a very thin flange, or lip around the front that is
very fragile. I saw one on e-bay a couple days ago that was described
as excellent, yet it had at least two sections of that lip missing.


The other big problem is their use of delrin gears with aluminum hubs
just about everywhere. And after 15 years, they are all broken. The
HP8640B is built like a tank, but everyone I have ever had came with
several gears that had split due to shrinkage.

But Delrin is very easy to machine.
Also unless the gears are of a very odd size (most are spur gears or a
pair of 45 degree bevel gears) that can be replaced with something
more modern and durable.

I do like a lot of the new, lighter weight gear as I have a bad back.
(Probably from man handling that old stuff that takes two good size
men to load it into a trailer)

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

-Chuck

RP Jones wrote:
With out doubt, most new hardware looks like its built to be thrown away
and crushed.
"Built in absolesance" Its a dam shame !
Id agree on Tek for scopes and HP for analyzers, if you look on Ebay HP
"as is" scopes with problems must out number the Tek's 10-1.
(Many developed push button/switchpad related problems)

"gw" wrote in message isn't it true that the older
stuff is built like a battleship and

isn't as proprietary and can be repaired with user obtainable parts?
I always heard tek for scopes and hp for analyzers. Any thoughts on
that?

"RP Jones" wrote in message . ..
With out doubt, most new hardware looks like its built to be thrown away
and crushed.
"Built in absolesance" Its a dam shame !
Id agree on Tek for scopes and HP for analyzers, if you look on Ebay HP
"as is" scopes with problems must out number the Tek's 10-1.
(Many developed push button/switchpad related problems)

"gw" wrote in message isn't it true that the older
stuff is built like a battleship and
isn't as proprietary and can be repaired with user obtainable parts?
I always heard tek for scopes and hp for analyzers. Any thoughts on
that?

what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
break the bank on this stuff? thanks.

what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
break the bank on this stuff? thanks.

What specs do you want, and how much do you want to spend? The HP 141T
series is great for technically-inclined hams. Very maintainable, very
reliable once you understand its quirks, very competitive performance...
and very big and heavy. Typically $1K or less on eBay for a working
outfit.

Tek's 492-497 series are also excellent analyzers. Newer and much more
portable than the 141T series, but still easily maintainable (via parts
units and aftermarket suppliers, not through Tek). Quite a bit more
expensive in most cases. $2K - $7K depending on model and options.

HP 8560-series analyzers are also very nice; I have no personal
experience with these, though. Stay away from the cheaper (8557/8/9) HP
units. Tek's older 491 is probably also best avoided in favor of the
141T line (this is probably where the saying "HP for analyzers" came
from.)

Tek analyzers from the 2780 series should also be avoided by most users.
They are still extremely expensive ($7K and up), and like the older
490/2750 analyzers no parts or manuals can be ordered from Tek anymore.
However, unlike the 490/2750 units, they can be calibrated only with
special PC-based configurations connected to specific test sources via
GPIB and running obsolete software. Worse, Tek supported them only via
module exchange, never releasing any component-level schematics. These
are very powerful instruments, but keeping a 2782 or 2784 running
nowadays would be a serious, ongoing research project in itself. These
were symptomatic of the "bean-counter" generation at Tek, where customer
needs were considered secondary to high-priced, proprietary product
support and finite market lifetime.

-- jm

------------------------------------------------------
http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx
Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam
------------------------------------------------------

johnm wrote in message ...
what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
break the bank on this stuff? thanks.

What specs do you want, and how much do you want to spend? The HP 141T
series is great for technically-inclined hams. Very maintainable, very
reliable once you understand its quirks, very competitive performance...
and very big and heavy. Typically $1K or less on eBay for a working
outfit.

Tek's 492-497 series are also excellent analyzers. Newer and much more
portable than the 141T series, but still easily maintainable (via parts
units and aftermarket suppliers, not through Tek). Quite a bit more
expensive in most cases. $2K - $7K depending on model and options.

HP 8560-series analyzers are also very nice; I have no personal
experience with these, though. Stay away from the cheaper (8557/8/9) HP
units. Tek's older 491 is probably also best avoided in favor of the
141T line (this is probably where the saying "HP for analyzers" came
from.)

Tek analyzers from the 2780 series should also be avoided by most users.
They are still extremely expensive ($7K and up), and like the older
490/2750 analyzers no parts or manuals can be ordered from Tek anymore.
However, unlike the 490/2750 units, they can be calibrated only with
special PC-based configurations connected to specific test sources via
GPIB and running obsolete software. Worse, Tek supported them only via
module exchange, never releasing any component-level schematics. These
are very powerful instruments, but keeping a 2782 or 2784 running
nowadays would be a serious, ongoing research project in itself. These
were symptomatic of the "bean-counter" generation at Tek, where customer
needs were considered secondary to high-priced, proprietary product
support and finite market lifetime.

-- jm

------------------------------------------------------
http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx
Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam
------------------------------------------------------


how about a 8569b ? some guy has one on ebay now for about
$3,000.00......i might pull the trigger on that one.....I would be
using it for hf work. I was considering a 141t from tucker . it cost
more but at least you know it works. i was going to get the 8552b and
8553b plugins with it. then you have to round up the connecting cables
and manuals for them. comments? oh by the way i have read good things
about the hp 8569b's. if they work.

what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
break the bank on this stuff? thanks.

A tek 7000 mainframe is my spectrum analyzer, and backup scope.
I have a 7L5 plugin for 0-5MHz, and 7L13 for 0.1 to 1800 MHz
I also have the companion tracking generator.

This stuff was all aquired piecemeal at hamfests, and in total, probably set
me back $1k.
I've had it for (eek!) 13 years!

The 7000 series is getting long in the tooth, but there's a ton of plugins
out there cheap, and they are very nice instruments.

Generally, get the best scope you can afford, and "give till it hurts".
My current scope is a TDS-420 4 channel DSO. It wasn't cheap, except in
relative terms, but it's my main tool for earning a living, and I wouldn't
want to work with less.

Depending on what you want to do with it, you might be ok with a 100 or even
60 MHz non-storage analog scope. You want the bandwidth to be the
frequency you'll be working at. Assuming 11M applications, I'd say 60 would
be marginal, 100 definitely better.

Also, GET GOOD PROBES! I just re-probed at Dayton this year, I think I
spent $800 or so on probes. I got two sets of very nice probes (8 probes
total) plus a set of lesser quality "everyday" probes that I use when I'm
not really pushing the limits. Save the good ones for when it matters.

Some old BNC cable with clipleads will work at audio, but you wouldn't want
to debug a switching power supply with it!

In article ,
says...
johnm wrote in message ...
what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
break the bank on this stuff? thanks.

What specs do you want, and how much do you want to spend? The HP 141T
series is great for technically-inclined hams. Very maintainable, very
reliable once you understand its quirks, very competitive performance...
and very big and heavy. Typically $1K or less on eBay for a working
outfit.

Tek's 492-497 series are also excellent analyzers. Newer and much more
portable than the 141T series, but still easily maintainable (via parts
units and aftermarket suppliers, not through Tek). Quite a bit more
expensive in most cases. $2K - $7K depending on model and options.

HP 8560-series analyzers are also very nice; I have no personal
experience with these, though. Stay away from the cheaper (8557/8/9) HP
units. Tek's older 491 is probably also best avoided in favor of the
141T line (this is probably where the saying "HP for analyzers" came
from.)

Tek analyzers from the 2780 series should also be avoided by most users.
They are still extremely expensive ($7K and up), and like the older
490/2750 analyzers no parts or manuals can be ordered from Tek anymore.
However, unlike the 490/2750 units, they can be calibrated only with
special PC-based configurations connected to specific test sources via
GPIB and running obsolete software. Worse, Tek supported them only via
module exchange, never releasing any component-level schematics. These
are very powerful instruments, but keeping a 2782 or 2784 running
nowadays would be a serious, ongoing research project in itself. These
were symptomatic of the "bean-counter" generation at Tek, where customer
needs were considered secondary to high-priced, proprietary product
support and finite market lifetime.

-- jm

------------------------------------------------------
http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx
Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam
------------------------------------------------------


how about a 8569b ? some guy has one on ebay now for about
$3,000.00......i might pull the trigger on that one.....I would be
using it for hf work. I was considering a 141t from tucker . it cost
more but at least you know it works. i was going to get the 8552b and
8553b plugins with it. then you have to round up the connecting cables
and manuals for them. comments? oh by the way i have read good things
about the hp 8569b's. if they work.

My guess is that the 8569b would be a very passable unit. Its specs
seem competitive with an optioned-out Tek 492 in most respects, except
that it only goes down to 10 MHz (perhaps there's an underrange
capability that lets it see lower frequencies?) That might be a concern
if you're going to be using it mostly for HF work.

I see that there's some modern GPIB software for it at www.febo.com,
which is VERY good to have. (I've written my own for the Tek 49x
analyzers, but it's never been tested on the HP jobs.)

But since I've never actually played with an 8560-series model, I can't
speak with any authority. Maybe someone who owns one will pipe up.

The 141Ts at Tucker seem like a pretty good deal. I believe they all
come with new CRTs. I personally like to buy broken models on eBay and
fix them up. It's cheaper, you get really familiar with the gear inside
and out, and you always have spare parts on hand. But that strategy
isn't for everybody.

-- jm

------------------------------------------------------
http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx
Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam
------------------------------------------------------

"John Miles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
johnm wrote in message
...
what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
break the bank on this stuff? thanks.

SNIP

how about a 8569b ? some guy has one on ebay now for about
$3,000.00......i might pull the trigger on that one.....I would be
using it for hf work. I was considering a 141t from tucker . it cost
more but at least you know it works. i was going to get the 8552b and
8553b plugins with it. then you have to round up the connecting cables
and manuals for them. comments? oh by the way i have read good things
about the hp 8569b's. if they work.

My guess is that the 8569b would be a very passable unit. Its specs
seem competitive with an optioned-out Tek 492 in most respects, except
that it only goes down to 10 MHz (perhaps there's an underrange
capability that lets it see lower frequencies?) That might be a concern
if you're going to be using it mostly for HF work.

SNIP

The 141Ts at Tucker seem like a pretty good deal. I believe they all
come with new CRTs. I personally like to buy broken models on eBay and
fix them up. It's cheaper, you get really familiar with the gear inside
and out, and you always have spare parts on hand. But that strategy
isn't for everybody.

-- jm


As I have HP-141's, an HP-8569, an 8566B and an 8562A, let me drop a few
comments here.

The 141's are the best deal for a hobbyist. You can acquire the slightly
better 8552B IF section, and then get only the RF plug-in that suits your
needs (an 8556, with it's built-in tracking generator, for a few Hz to 300
kHz, or an 8555, for 10 MHz through umpteen GHz, assuming you also get the
external mixers). Unfortunately, by the time a hobbyist gets one of these,
it has been abused and neglected by its last commercial owner. CRT burns are
common, and the flood-gun analog memory may be very quirky. For an advanced
hobbyist, either get an associated Polaroid scope camera, or build your own
camera hood. You can capture a lot of transient things that way, and you can
scan the pixs to input into your computer. Also, HP made a line of
oscilloscope plug-ins that fit the 141 mainframe, so you can use the 141 as
a multi-channel analog memory oscilloscope too. 141's are a pain in two
ways; first, you have to externally store extra plug-ins, and secondly, the
hard side handles make carrying one a painful experience beyond about 50
feet. Also, you tend to injure your fingertips sliding those bulky plug-ins
in and out past the big metal front handles. The 141 may also be the last of
the hobbyist repairable analyzers; newer analyzers use proprietary chips and
are built too dense to let you get fingers and probes into them.

The 8562A is old (1987) but a superb analyzer, 1 kHz to 18 GHz, all digital
and synthesized. This will do everything you want, except drive a parallel
or RS-232 printer directly. If you're smart enough to talk to it by
IEEE-488, then you can do everything through the computer. Other 856x series
units have lesser capabilities, but are still great analyzers, and just
might be priced low enough for a very serious hobbyist. Also, the HP-859x
series are very good, although some have odd frequency, memory and IO
capabilities. All 856x & 859x series units are one-man portables, until your
knuckles turn white and numb.

The 8569 is, in my opinion, a transitional beast between the analog and
digital worlds. It's not as stable and simple as the 8562A, although it's a
leap above the 141. Since it's wide, it's also awkward to carry using it's
handle. I'm not much of a fan of the 8569.

The 8566B is HP's top-of-the-line analyzer. They threw down the benchmark
for everyone else to try to meet. Mine is customized a bit, covering 20 Hz
to 22 GHz, and with an external tracking pre-selector, optional detectors,
programmable attenuators, RF path switching and low-noise pre-amps. My
company has a number of somewhat more plain-vanilla 8566B's and 8566A's.
There isn't anything I need to do that these units fall short of (uhh, with
the help of some external IEEE-488 linked computers). OTOH, these are now
obsolete, non-supported by Agilent, and need two guys to carry one. Mine is
in a 60" tall dedicated rack. Typical used price is around $20k.

Most companies will be better served with one of Agilent's newer EPA or SPA
analyzers. Anritsu and Rohde & Schwartz are also making fine analyzers.
IIRC, Leader makes an analyzer that a hobbyist may aspire to affording.

I would say that a 141 is still the best hobbyist choice. A company needs to
be sure that they get a usable item for their money, so buying on eBay is a
gamble. A company should buy from some place like Tucker, where they get a
warranty backed by a reputable source. Yeah, it initially costs more. But
it's a lot safer than having to try to repair an analyzer when you need that
analyzer to do the real work of your company. A hobbyist can afford to spend
50 to 100 hours to get something going; in a business environment, where the
clock is always ticking, that's unacceptable.

Ed
wb6wsn