Lazy Senior wrote:
Steve wrote:

How about offering these as kits? Maybe even offering them
with or without tubes? If you're able to keep the cost low I
think you have a shot.

Steve


I dunno, a company called Heathkit tried that and went belly up.

Lazy senior
No. They were very succussful until another company who's name starts
with a "Z" bought them out so that they could get a foothold in the home
computer business. They ("Z") left Heathkit to flounder without proper
finances until Heath closed. With proper finance and control a company
could succeed with out much trouble. There are several "kit" companies
out there that seem to be doing very well.

Dave WD9BDZ

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 02:34:40 GMT, Lazy Senior
wrote:

Steve wrote:
How about offering these as kits? Maybe even offering them
with or without tubes? If you're able to keep the cost low I
think you have a shot.

Steve


I dunno, a company called Heathkit tried that and went belly up.

While that's true (and several other companies have ceased selling
kits), it seems they never charged anywhere near what an "unassembled
Heathkit" sells for now (factoring in inflation), as they're more
properly called collector's items, rather than kits.
I've had the thought of having faceplates and chassis made,
assembling the parts and offering 'kits' of some of the more desirable
Heathkit models. Much of the work, the actual design and the writing
and debugging of the assembly manual, is already done for you. I'm
unlikely to actually do this myself, maybe some others can run with
it.
There may be some copyright problems with the manuals, as well as
possible legal problems with copying the design. Circa 1996 I called a
phone number for "the real Heathkit - the only place for legal Heath
manual copies, still covered by copyright" that I saw in some
magazine, asked about a couple manuals (transmission tube testor, $25
at hamfest, metal dector $5 at yard sale), and they were $30 each. I
went ahead and got the tube tester manual.
But I wonder if there would be some interest in having boatanchor
'kits' available of some specific models that might be popular. Such a
kit would likely cost more than a completed original can be bought
for, but I can imagine that some people would pay extra to be able to
build just one more "Heathkit."
At the prices they go for, true unassembled Heathkits are real
collector's items and are unlikely to be built, as that would destroy
their (dollar) value, at keast much more so than building a 'copy'
kit. This way, one could buy a 'kit' for its original purpose, to
build into a working product.
While selling such a kit may have legal hurdles with copyright and
copying the design, you can build your own for personal use with no
such problems.

The OP wrote:

based on schematics and design
principles that have gone into the public domain.

Hmm, would this include the older (1950's) Heathkits, or has what
remains of Heath Company renewed the copyrights?

Lazy senior

wrote in message
oups.com...
3) What I can think I can offer in gear

As a market test, or "proof of concept," how about building a prototype and
posting some photos, along with schematic & specs, for folks on this forum
to look at?

Building a prototype would be a necessary first step in any case. And you
might even get some useful suggestions from this crew, as cranky as they
might seem :-)

Regards,

Phil Nelson

Ben Bradley wrote:

While that's true (and several other companies have ceased selling
kits), it seems they never charged anywhere near what an "unassembled
Heathkit" sells for now (factoring in inflation), as they're more
properly called collector's items, rather than kits.
I've had the thought of having faceplates and chassis made,
assembling the parts and offering 'kits' of some of the more desirable
Heathkit models. Much of the work, the actual design and the writing
and debugging of the assembly manual, is already done for you. I'm
unlikely to actually do this myself, maybe some others can run with
it.
There may be some copyright problems with the manuals, as well as
possible legal problems with copying the design. Circa 1996 I called a
phone number for "the real Heathkit - the only place for legal Heath
manual copies, still covered by copyright" that I saw in some
magazine, asked about a couple manuals (transmission tube testor, $25
at hamfest, metal dector $5 at yard sale), and they were $30 each. I
went ahead and got the tube tester manual.
But I wonder if there would be some interest in having boatanchor
'kits' available of some specific models that might be popular. Such a
kit would likely cost more than a completed original can be bought
for, but I can imagine that some people would pay extra to be able to
build just one more "Heathkit."
At the prices they go for, true unassembled Heathkits are real
collector's items and are unlikely to be built, as that would destroy
their (dollar) value, at keast much more so than building a 'copy'
kit. This way, one could buy a 'kit' for its original purpose, to
build into a working product.
While selling such a kit may have legal hurdles with copyright and
copying the design, you can build your own for personal use with no
such problems.

The OP wrote:

based on schematics and design
principles that have gone into the public domain.

Hmm, would this include the older (1950's) Heathkits, or has what
remains of Heath Company renewed the copyrights?

Lazy senior


Why don't you ask them? They still sell educational materials, and at
least recently were still supping kits of parts to vocational
electronics schools.

http://www.heathkit.com/
--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"David G. Nagel" wrote:

No. They were very succussful until another company who's name starts
with a "Z" bought them out so that they could get a foothold in the home
computer business. They ("Z") left Heathkit to flounder without proper
finances until Heath closed. With proper finance and control a company
could succeed with out much trouble. There are several "kit" companies
out there that seem to be doing very well.

Dave WD9BDZ


According to trade journals at the time Zenith wanted to bid on a
large computer contract with the US government, but they were not
building computers yet. So, they bought Heathkit to get their existing
government business, and to get the contract.

I've scrapped some of the "XT clones" from that contract and they
were a joke. Both the regular and the "Tempest" hardware. I still have
some of their "Z DOS" manuals and the printed source code for the BIOS
used in the computers. Zenith put the non Tempest version in the
Heathkit stores, and a board was sold by a third party to let you run
MSDOS software on the system. The I/O ports were in different locations
from the standard "XT" design and some of the BIOS calls were different
so that the software written for regular "XT" computers wouldn't run on
their design.
--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" ) writes:
"David G. Nagel" wrote:

No. They were very succussful until another company who's name starts
with a "Z" bought them out so that they could get a foothold in the home
computer business. They ("Z") left Heathkit to flounder without proper
finances until Heath closed. With proper finance and control a company
could succeed with out much trouble. There are several "kit" companies
out there that seem to be doing very well.

Dave WD9BDZ


According to trade journals at the time Zenith wanted to bid on a
large computer contract with the US government, but they were not
building computers yet. So, they bought Heathkit to get their existing
government business, and to get the contract.

Whatever Zenith wanted to do with the company, I don't think it's that
simple.

Circa 1976, Heathkit had to recall a 2M transceiver (I think it was
a handheld) because it was generating spurs, I think in the aero band.
If I recall, it wasn't that it couldn't be a clean output, but that
it couldn't be clean with the equipment the average ham had. So they
called them in, and eventually came up with a new design.

As times went by the equipment became more complicated. And then
it became harder and harder to make them something that anyone could
build. If in the fifties they'd sell a shortwave receiver kit with
the coil slugs "pre-adjusted", a couple of decades later they'd be
selling a kit that had some crucial circuitry in a preassembled module.

Over that same period, they'd be selling tube gear that was well
oriented towards hand wiring (so it made little difference whether
it was wired in a factory or by the end user) to solid state devices
on circuit boards. The latter was more conducive to automated manufacturing,
and the moreso the more years that passed. So the cost of manufacturing
went down (I got my DVD player two years ago for fifty dollars, and that
is far more complicated a device than any Heathkit till at least the
mid-seventies if not later), while the overhead of making something a kit
stayed the same or more.

Remember, Heathkit did not cater to the hobbyist, even if they were
among the customers. Heathkits were intended to be built by anyone.
And they were seen as a way of getting something a bit cheaper if
you were willing to put some time into the project. As time went
on, the automated manufacturing and one assumes overseas manufacturing
lowered the cost of manufactured equipment. A color tv set was still
a relatively major purchase forty years ago, while today if someone
needs a tv set they just go out and buy it that day. There became
less interest in building the kit except by a relative handful of
the population. I would think the mass consumer items, the tv sets
and the Boonie Bikes and such, helped to subsidize the amateur radio
equipment. If Heath had to live off the profits from just the ham
equipment, they wouldn't have lasted so many decades.

But towards the end, they had really complicated equipment for
sale to hams, and likely the "kit building" of those required
less time by the builder than the old gear, and it was expensive.
Heath had become less of a common name, and it seemed like
the later catalogs were slimmer and less interesting than
a couple of decades before.

Combine all these, and the kit business as done by Heath couldn't
survive.

The kit companies that have come along since, they cater to a much
more limited market. They cater to a hobbyist crowd, and while
they may need handholding, one would hope not as much as someone
walking in off the street who's never soldered and wants to save
some money by building that color tv set. Heath spelled out everything
in their manuals, while I suspect many of the more recent kit companies
say things like "stuff the board, solder the components, and then
turn it on" (not so brief, but not nearly as specific as Heath). That
saves money. And if you sell products where the kit building is
as important as the end project, ie a regen receiver kit where someone
can have fun building it and can have fun playing with something new,
but who doesn't expect to use it as a main receiver, then you are
dealing with a different market than Heath, where they were selling
the end items and they had to have a transceiver that was competitive
with what everyone else was selling, be it the HW-100 in the late
sixties or the Yaesu or Kenwood lookalike that was sold towards
the end of the company's life.

Michael VE2BVW

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"David G. Nagel" wrote:

No. They were very succussful until another company who's name starts
with a "Z" bought them out so that they could get a foothold in the home
computer business. They ("Z") left Heathkit to flounder without proper
finances until Heath closed. With proper finance and control a company
could succeed with out much trouble. There are several "kit" companies
out there that seem to be doing very well.

Dave WD9BDZ



According to trade journals at the time Zenith wanted to bid on a
large computer contract with the US government, but they were not
building computers yet. So, they bought Heathkit to get their existing
government business, and to get the contract.

I've scrapped some of the "XT clones" from that contract and they
were a joke. Both the regular and the "Tempest" hardware. I still have
some of their "Z DOS" manuals and the printed source code for the BIOS
used in the computers. Zenith put the non Tempest version in the
Heathkit stores, and a board was sold by a third party to let you run
MSDOS software on the system. The I/O ports were in different locations
from the standard "XT" design and some of the BIOS calls were different
so that the software written for regular "XT" computers wouldn't run on
their design.

But it wasn't Zenith that killed Heathkit. Zenith liked the computer
business, and also liked selling TV's, both kit and non kit through the
Heath distribution system. For them, the kit division was like a stock
that pays dividends... money for no effort.

The death knell for Heath was sounded when Group Bull, a french conglomerate,
proffered a takeover bid for Zenith. Bull was interested in the highly
regarded Zenith laptop computers. Bull had absolutely no interest in the
kit company, so they stripped it of everything that wasn't bolted to the
floor, and sold it to itself, and mere shell without any solid assets...
Lots of IP, but no money, or stock, or supplies, or fixtures to use in
manufacturing.

Given that Heath was essentially gutted, fileted, and hung from a hook in
the meat locker, it is pretty amazing what they have done with themselves.
They still sell manuals for all of the gear that was sold before, and they
are making kits and educational trainers. Plus they have a fairly highly
regarded business in the home security and lighting industry. You can even
buy their products at Home Depot.... it takes more than a little bit of
"juice" to get shelf space in Home Depot.

-Chuck

Phil Nelson wrote:
wrote in message
roups.com...
3) What I can think I can offer in gear

As a market test, or "proof of concept," how about building a prototype and
posting some photos, along with schematic & specs, for folks on this forum
to look at?

I want a small standalone QRP SSB transmitter based around one of the newer
PLL chips. I want a row of five thumbwheel switches that I can set from
say 500 KHz to 30 MHz, a switch to select USB, LSB, or CW, and maybe a
watt or two out.

THEN, I'd like just the PLL section out of it, to use as a VFO on older
rigs.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I think a fully loaded multiband fresh
boatanchor should sell quite nicely for
$199.95 it if offers compareable features.

Wow, pie-in-the-sky pricing!

My guess is that if you wanted to replicate a mid-60's vintage Swan 350
from scratch (but using actually obtainable final tubes rather than
sweep tubes) you'd be looking at several tens of thousands of dollars
in up-front tooling and it'd cost about $2000 or $2500 for each one you
produce.

They listed for $420 (just for the rig, add on more than a hundred more
for VOX, speaker, power supply) in 1965. They had a good run, and a
decade later were being offered (with some updates) about a decade
later when they stopped selling them because at that price hardly
anyone was buying them. What makes you think that the sheet metal,
transformers, parts, etc. are going to be cheaper today?

Producing it in China might let you sell it at a less-than-$2000 price
point.

If you're looking to do a Collins-class rig, you'll never get the extra
$ for the effort because it's still "not a Collins", and even at
overinflated E-bay prices the Collins rigs will still be cheaper.

Tim.

On 28 Nov 2005 06:06:48 -0800, wrote:

I think a fully loaded multiband fresh
boatanchor should sell quite nicely for
$199.95 it if offers compareable features.

Wow, pie-in-the-sky pricing!

My guess is that if you wanted to replicate a mid-60's vintage Swan 350
from scratch (but using actually obtainable final tubes rather than
sweep tubes) you'd be looking at several tens of thousands of dollars
in up-front tooling and it'd cost about $2000 or $2500 for each one you
produce.

They listed for $420 (just for the rig, add on more than a hundred more
for VOX, speaker, power supply) in 1965. They had a good run, and a
decade later were being offered (with some updates) about a decade
later when they stopped selling them because at that price hardly
anyone was buying them. What makes you think that the sheet metal,
transformers, parts, etc. are going to be cheaper today?

Producing it in China might let you sell it at a less-than-$2000 price
point.

If you're looking to do a Collins-class rig, you'll never get the extra
$ for the effort because it's still "not a Collins", and even at
overinflated E-bay prices the Collins rigs will still be cheaper.

Tim.

I recall 3 or 4 years ago, some outfit or guy in Paris, Texas was
selling a newly manufactured Globe King 500 for about $7500 -- with
money paid in advance before building the rig. They ran a few ads in
QST, then I never saw anything of the rig again.

Bob
k5qwg