:How many of them are currently making rf amplifiers like the
:example..? How many, if any current rf amplifier manufactures use a
:specific sequence relay in their circuits..?
:
:The answer is close to if not zero... back ye heathen with
:thy dated technology. Chase ye not windmills in this here land.

: More than you think, Skippy. Any good designer of common-cathode
: tetrode/pentode amps will add a sequenced relay specifically to make
: sure the screen is last-on-first-off (when the screen supply is
: seperate from the plate supply).

I believe you were talking about make before break TR relays frankie...
Your post just above is nothing special... nor is it news. Possibly
an attempt to change the subject to power supply squence relays from TR
switching..?


: A relay "Sequencing" notation seems to be missing from the circuit
: diagram. You are again chasing windmills...
:
: And you are having a hard time with your reading comprehension: see
: above where I said, "Schematics don't usually indicate when a relay
: operates in this way". Regardless, sometimes the sequencing is done
: with two relays, and sometimes with one relay using different contact
: gaps. But you will be hard-pressed to find a schematic that makes any
: notation about the latter. Anyone that has ever done any amount of
: radio repairs knows exactly what I am talking about. It's obvious that
: you don't.
:
:Remember mr off topic.... the original amplifier circuit in question has
:one relay.

: I never said it wasn't, Skippy. I guess I have to rephrase this a
: third time so you can understand it: Adding extra gap to a pair of
: contacts in a relay (by slightly bending the amrature) has the same
: effect as using two sequenced relays.

Nice song and dance... but again IT'S NOT USED IN ANY CURRENT AMATEUR
OR COMMERCIAL AMPLIFIER CIRCUIT, nor was it common in past commercial or
amateur amplifiers.

:Other than you gassy cloud sequence story, can you provide any
:modern rf amplifier circuit using a sequence relay...

: I'm willing to bet that the amplifier in question does.

It doesn't...

: or any mention
:of bending relay armature contacts or using said type of relays in
:their respective parts/owners manual.

: You probably won't see such a notation in any owner's or service
: manuals since these relays are typically ordered from the manufacturer
: with the specified gap (or 'contact delay' -- same thing). All you get
: from a service manual is the replacement part number. Replacing one of
: these with a general-purpose relay -without- checking the contact gaps
: on the original can lead to some serious trouble (and I learned THAT
: one from experience).

Brand and model of said lesson device...?

:Why is it not widely mentioned in modern manuals and text books..?

: Sequential relay circuits ARE mentioned in many manuals and text
: books, even in the ARRL manuals. It's up to the designer to choose how
: best to implement the circuit.

Nice try at a side step dance... I was talking about your oh so popular
sequenced relay contacts... on the same frame. Don't try to blend it into
a sequenced relay layout. We were talking a single relay frame, not more
than one relay.


: Your bent armatures suggestion is bad news.
:
: Such "bad news" that the practice has been used by almost every
: manufacturer of transceivers since they were invented? Right. Uh-huh.
: Ok. Next you are probably going to proclaim that relays are "dated
: technology". Sure thing, Skippy. Whatever you say.
:
:The subject was a simple rf amplifier circuit... you just want to dance
:the night away on off topic poop again.

: Why are they "bad news", Skippy? And if they are "bad news", why have
: they been used for decades?

Where... and the bigger question is, why are they not popular now..?
Simple answer: "really dated technology".

Because they are not reliable, nor are they practical, nor are they cheap.

:In regards to transceivers... rather than the stupid practice of hosing
:relay contacts... Motorola, GE, RCA and EF Johnson (along with most
:other mfgrs) simply delayed the RF long enough for the antenna relay
:to transfer.
:
:If you ever had your face in any of their manuals, you'd see delayed
:A+ and A- functions doing the task. Hey, what a concept..! In
:specific, see "channel element ground" functions.

: Those are common practices with diode switching circuits. Sequential
: relays accomplish the same thing, and when a relay is going to be used
: in the circuit it's much easier to gap a pair of contacts than it is
: to construct a power line delay circuit (which usually won't provide
: for the disconnection of the RF final before it powers down, burning
: out the relay contacts before their time).

There is a reason few if any amplifier - radio mfgrs are (might use a)
using sequential relay(s). You'd better jump from this "Titanic Topic"
before you go down with the ship.

I guess all the keyed A+ and A- used by companies like Motorola (for
decades) prefer the harder route. Come on now frankie...

: To verify my statements, all you need to do is to find an old radio
: that uses a T/R relay, take off the cover and look at the gaps. If you
: don't have an example of your own, email me your address and I'll send
: you a whole box full of old T/R relays from a wide variety of radios
: that use gapped contacts. Some of them have bent armatures and some of
: them have armature spacers, but all of them were built with the same
: objective -- a sequential relay.

I believe the original subject was an Amplifier... was it not..? The
last radio with a t/r relay was made ...? .... years ago..? ... decades
ago..?

:Yeah, cranking on relay armatures is pretty bad news... especially
:since many of them are sealed reed relay types. But you knew that
:and obviously holding back to see if I'd mention it... yeah right.!
:
:Hard to crank on a reed relay when its sealed. Yeah baby..!

: Reed relays don't carry RF very well. And they certainly don't carry
: power because it tends to vaporize the Hg and destroy the relay. They
: are usually only used for low-voltage DC and audio switching. But you
: knew that, didn't you Skippy?

I'm laughing at you big time here frankie.. I guess decades of Motorola,
GE, EF Johnson, Aerotron rf amplifier and radio switching with reed relays
doesn't prove anything. I guess its time I went and threw out the large
box of reed T/R relays I have from salvaged high power Motorola Micor
Radio Equipment. I got some nice/neat pictures of their very common
yellow RF switching (reed) relay I could send if you'd like to view them
while eating your crow.

: And the real issue with the relay in that amp is the fact that there
: is only one for both the input and output. If there is one thing that
: Pride got right with their 100 is their use of seperate input and
: output relays.
:
: ZZZZZZZZZZZZzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... .....!
:
: Gee, another "I don't care" response.
:
:One wonders why your so hot to tell your stories to me... when you
:should be sharing another of your famous verbose analysis with
:the original author. I promise not to laugh too hard if you do.
:Just leave out the equalization networks...

: I have had several discussions with Brian on many of the issues he
: raised with this amp, including the use of a single relay. He was
: right on the money with everything he said and I don't think he should
: have stopped when he did. He has learned good information from those
: discussions, although I didn't think he ever would at the time. You
: should follow his example, Skippy.

I appreciate your concern frankie, but you have me confused with someone
who really cares about what you post.

Hopefully Brian did not go for your dated relay information. Arcing /
bending relay contacts for use in RF amplifiers is bad news. Wasn't
even great back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Bad habits die hard... you
prove that quite a bit in your posts.

skipp

In , Skipp would rather be back in Tahoe
wrote:

:How many of them are currently making rf amplifiers like the
:example..? How many, if any current rf amplifier manufactures use a
:specific sequence relay in their circuits..?
:
:The answer is close to if not zero... back ye heathen with
:thy dated technology. Chase ye not windmills in this here land.

: More than you think, Skippy. Any good designer of common-cathode
: tetrode/pentode amps will add a sequenced relay specifically to make
: sure the screen is last-on-first-off (when the screen supply is
: seperate from the plate supply).

I believe you were talking about make before break TR relays frankie...

No I wasn't. I know what I'm talking about, but you obviously don't. Notice I
said "last-on-first-off", not "make before break". And BTW, when talking about
relay and switch contacts, the proper terms are "shorting" and "non-shorting",
not "make before break" and "make after break" -- just a little tidbit of info
that will help you sound like a real tech even though you aren't.

Your post just above is nothing special... nor is it news. Possibly
an attempt to change the subject to power supply squence relays from TR
switching..?

You say that you have lots of experience with tube amps. If so, you should know
exactly what I am talking about. But you don't. You don't have anywhere's near
the experience with tube amps that you claim, or else you would know that when
you apply screen voltage without plate voltage in one of these big power tubes
you start melting grids! And you should also know that if you don't hold the
load on your output tank until -after- the final powers down then you are going
to blow your receiver's front end. Sequential relays are an essential part of
any power transmitter, whether it's tube or solid-state.

: A relay "Sequencing" notation seems to be missing from the circuit
: diagram. You are again chasing windmills...
:
: And you are having a hard time with your reading comprehension: see
: above where I said, "Schematics don't usually indicate when a relay
: operates in this way". Regardless, sometimes the sequencing is done
: with two relays, and sometimes with one relay using different contact
: gaps. But you will be hard-pressed to find a schematic that makes any
: notation about the latter. Anyone that has ever done any amount of
: radio repairs knows exactly what I am talking about. It's obvious that
: you don't.
:
:Remember mr off topic.... the original amplifier circuit in question has
:one relay.

: I never said it wasn't, Skippy. I guess I have to rephrase this a
: third time so you can understand it: Adding extra gap to a pair of
: contacts in a relay (by slightly bending the amrature) has the same
: effect as using two sequenced relays.

Nice song and dance... but again IT'S NOT USED IN ANY CURRENT AMATEUR
OR COMMERCIAL AMPLIFIER CIRCUIT, nor was it common in past commercial or
amateur amplifiers.

Single sequential relays were most certainly common in commercial equipment and
some amateur equipment of the past, and are still used in some current stuff.
Like I said, I have a box full of such relays. I'll send you some if you want,
but you pay postage.

:Other than you gassy cloud sequence story, can you provide any
:modern rf amplifier circuit using a sequence relay...

: I'm willing to bet that the amplifier in question does.

It doesn't...

Did you design it? Do you have one handy and mic'ed the contacts? Or are you
just psychic? But you may be right, since that amp isn't exactly the best
example of RF engineering anyway.

: or any mention
:of bending relay armature contacts or using said type of relays in
:their respective parts/owners manual.

: You probably won't see such a notation in any owner's or service
: manuals since these relays are typically ordered from the manufacturer
: with the specified gap (or 'contact delay' -- same thing). All you get
: from a service manual is the replacement part number. Replacing one of
: these with a general-purpose relay -without- checking the contact gaps
: on the original can lead to some serious trouble (and I learned THAT
: one from experience).

Brand and model of said lesson device...?

Believe it or not, I actually remember the model even though it was almost 25
years ago -- it was a 2-channel Motorola T51GGV. I remember it well because the
first time it came into the shop it needed a new T/R relay, which I replaced
without knowing about the contact gapping requirements. But that darn radio came
back to the shop several times afterwards because it kept blowing the final (a
single 6146). That's when I got the lesson (scolding) about contact gaps from
Stan (the shop owner).

:Why is it not widely mentioned in modern manuals and text books..?

: Sequential relay circuits ARE mentioned in many manuals and text
: books, even in the ARRL manuals. It's up to the designer to choose how
: best to implement the circuit.

Nice try at a side step dance... I was talking about your oh so popular
sequenced relay contacts... on the same frame. Don't try to blend it into
a sequenced relay layout. We were talking a single relay frame, not more
than one relay.

You can accomplish the same thing either way. With two relays (and a diode) it's
an unbelievably simple circuit:

http://www.aimcomm.net/sparky/sq_rly.gif

And in case you never noticed, that's a very common circuit, even in modern
radios with reed relays. But if you are using open-contact type relays it's much
easier and cheaper just to gap a pair of contacts wider than the others on the
same relay. Jeez, Skip, I can't believe that you don't know this stuff -- this
is like high-school level electronics!

: Your bent armatures suggestion is bad news.
:
: Such "bad news" that the practice has been used by almost every
: manufacturer of transceivers since they were invented? Right. Uh-huh.
: Ok. Next you are probably going to proclaim that relays are "dated
: technology". Sure thing, Skippy. Whatever you say.
:
:The subject was a simple rf amplifier circuit... you just want to dance
:the night away on off topic poop again.

: Why are they "bad news", Skippy? And if they are "bad news", why have
: they been used for decades?

Where... and the bigger question is, why are they not popular now..?
Simple answer: "really dated technology".

That didn't answer the question -- why are they "bad news"? Because they aren't
"popular"? Maybe you should take a closer look at some of these un-"popular"
amps from makers like Collins, Henry, Kenwood.... or hey, you could even check
your copy of the ARRL handbook! I have the 1978 edition and it shows a couple
examples of sequenced relays.

Oh, and speaking of the ARRL handbook, notice that in every single example of HV
power supplies where there are semiconductor rectifiers in series they use
resistors and caps. On p.113 (1978 ed.) it has an entire section about using
diodes in series, under the section on "Protection of Silicon Power Diodes".
That section basically states that because diodes do not turn off at the same
time (no matter how well matched they are), they are subject to transients that
exceed the PRV of the diode. So the ARRL recommends using resistors to divide
the reverse voltage equally, and capacitors to protect against unequal switching
times. So do you think that the ARRL handbook is wrong?

Because they are not reliable, nor are they practical, nor are they cheap.

One relay is more reliable AND less expensive than two relays and a diode,
don'cha think? And one relay uses less current, takes up less space, and is
easier to replace when it fails, so how are they not practical? And if they were
used by GE, Motorola, Uniden, and many major manufacturers for many, many years
(and are STILL used by other companies despite your unqualified claims to the
contrary), why are they "bad news", Skippy? They aren't. So shut your trap and
learn something instead of bragging about your ignorance.

:In regards to transceivers... rather than the stupid practice of hosing
:relay contacts... Motorola, GE, RCA and EF Johnson (along with most
:other mfgrs) simply delayed the RF long enough for the antenna relay
:to transfer.
:
:If you ever had your face in any of their manuals, you'd see delayed
:A+ and A- functions doing the task. Hey, what a concept..! In
:specific, see "channel element ground" functions.

: Those are common practices with diode switching circuits. Sequential
: relays accomplish the same thing, and when a relay is going to be used
: in the circuit it's much easier to gap a pair of contacts than it is
: to construct a power line delay circuit (which usually won't provide
: for the disconnection of the RF final before it powers down, burning
: out the relay contacts before their time).

There is a reason few if any amplifier - radio mfgrs are (might use a)
using sequential relay(s). You'd better jump from this "Titanic Topic"
before you go down with the ship.

No, YOU better start paying attention to how these things are actually designed
and built! The reason (and I said this before) is because they are being
replaced by reed relays in sequential circuits. But not every manufacturer uses
reed relays. Some still use open-contact relays, such as the amp that YOU used
for an example.

I guess all the keyed A+ and A- used by companies like Motorola (for
decades) prefer the harder route. Come on now frankie...

No. After the old tube monsters went extinct, Motorola took a different path and
built some radios that put the relay sequencing into the mic switch, which
wasn't too popular because the mics weren't interchangeable between radios. But
many shops tried anyway, resulting in a lot of bad radios, which is one reason
why their radios sucked for a long time. The Mocom line used a single sequenced
relay, which was made just before they began using sequenced reed relays (using
circuits similar to what I provided in the schematic).

But you should know all this already because you are a radio tech, right?

: To verify my statements, all you need to do is to find an old radio
: that uses a T/R relay, take off the cover and look at the gaps. If you
: don't have an example of your own, email me your address and I'll send
: you a whole box full of old T/R relays from a wide variety of radios
: that use gapped contacts. Some of them have bent armatures and some of
: them have armature spacers, but all of them were built with the same
: objective -- a sequential relay.

I believe the original subject was an Amplifier... was it not..? The
last radio with a t/r relay was made ...? .... years ago..? ... decades
ago..?

T/R relays are still used today -- did you forget about that amplifier we were
talking about?

:Yeah, cranking on relay armatures is pretty bad news... especially
:since many of them are sealed reed relay types. But you knew that
:and obviously holding back to see if I'd mention it... yeah right.!
:
:Hard to crank on a reed relay when its sealed. Yeah baby..!

: Reed relays don't carry RF very well. And they certainly don't carry
: power because it tends to vaporize the Hg and destroy the relay. They
: are usually only used for low-voltage DC and audio switching. But you
: knew that, didn't you Skippy?

I'm laughing at you big time here frankie.. I guess decades of Motorola,
GE, EF Johnson, Aerotron rf amplifier and radio switching with reed relays
doesn't prove anything.

By "power" I meant kilowatts, but I'll let you gloat for a while anyway because
I should have stated myself more clearly.

I guess its time I went and threw out the large
box of reed T/R relays I have from salvaged high power Motorola Micor
Radio Equipment.

Oh, hey, remember your question above? "The last radio with a t/r relay was made
....? .... years ago..? ... decades ago..?" I think you answered your own
question, Skippy.

I got some nice/neat pictures of their very common
yellow RF switching (reed) relay I could send if you'd like to view them
while eating your crow.

It's more fun to see how differently you react when you know for a fact that you
are right, as opposed to 99% of the time when you are shoveling technical voodoo
based on your misunderstanding of the fundamentals and your lack of education
and experience, or plagiarizing some ham that shares your ignorance. It's almost
like you jump out of your seat and lapse into convulsions when you can finally
nail me on something! I should put out some intentional misinformation just to
jerk your chain once in a while!

: And the real issue with the relay in that amp is the fact that there
: is only one for both the input and output. If there is one thing that
: Pride got right with their 100 is their use of seperate input and
: output relays.
:
: ZZZZZZZZZZZZzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... .....!
:
: Gee, another "I don't care" response.
:
:One wonders why your so hot to tell your stories to me... when you
:should be sharing another of your famous verbose analysis with
:the original author. I promise not to laugh too hard if you do.
:Just leave out the equalization networks...

: I have had several discussions with Brian on many of the issues he
: raised with this amp, including the use of a single relay. He was
: right on the money with everything he said and I don't think he should
: have stopped when he did. He has learned good information from those
: discussions, although I didn't think he ever would at the time. You
: should follow his example, Skippy.

I appreciate your concern frankie, but you have me confused with someone
who really cares about what you post.

....uh huh. That's why we are having this conversation, right?

Hopefully Brian did not go for your dated relay information. Arcing /
bending relay contacts for use in RF amplifiers is bad news.

Even though it's a method that has been used successfully for almost a century,
and still used even today, why is it "bad news", Skippy? Why can't you answer
that simple little question?

Wasn't
even great back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Bad habits die hard... you
prove that quite a bit in your posts.

I guess fire, gears, metallurgy, and the wheel are some of those 'bad habits'
that use "dated technology", huh? Of course let's not forget that the internal
combustion engine and the airplane have been around for a century, so they must
also be "dated technology", right? But wait.... radio is over a century old,
too... by golly, even RADIO is "dated technology"! So why the hell are you using
it, Skippy?





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