"DBT" == David B. Thomas wrote in message
...
DBT "TES" == The Eternal Squire writes:
DBT
DBT TES At this point in my life I would attempt to dissuade ANYONE
DBT TES from attempting to build a career from technology of any
DBT TES sort, unless it is totally in that person's blood. I am
DBT TES talking dedication far in excess one would normally give a
DBT TES spouse. [...]
DBT
DBT Rush Limbaugh is always talking about this kind of bitter advice.
DBT Young people who are interested in getting into the radio business
DBT often ask their more senior counterparts, only to be told, "you better
DBT not get into this business -- you'll get eaten alive". Sure, it's
DBT hard, but if you ask someone who hasn't been successful himself,
DBT that's the kind of answer you'll get. Rush encourages would-be radio
DBT personalities to follow their dreams.

I listen to Rush from time to time, and while I think he is halfway decent
in his reading of modern geopolitics, I find his liberal-bashing,
homophobia,
emotionalism, and and xenophobia downright nauseating... which is quite
something considering that I'm hetero, happily married, and have a baby
on the way.

DBT My philosophy on this type of thing is simple, and mirrors Rush's. If
DBT you do what you love, you'll be great at it. If you do what you don't
DBT love, you'll be mediocre. I had a girlfriend who was fascinated with
DBT psychology but took computer programming because she thought that was
DBT where the money would be. When she graduated she got a job she didn't
DBT like, and she didn't do very well, even as others did great in the
DBT same field.

While I do not consider Rush to be a proper role model for children and
polite company, what you are saying is true to a point.

But consider this: the 5 percent who enter the field for love wind up to be
the
people who clean up after the 95 percent who enter the field for money, and
those 5 percent would prefer to do something creative rather than clean up
the
team's garbage so the project actually functions. To make things worse,
the
lead is generally a professional manager with nearly non-existent skills in
the
people being supervised, which makes it extremely hard for the manager to
tell who is actually doing the work in a team and who isn't.

This type of nonsense is truer for engineering than for other fields, so
these
are the dues which a person contemplating entering this field should be
prepared to pay.

DBT To his credit, Mr. Squire did mention that someone who is passionate
DBT can do fine in his chosen field, even in hard times. I suppose if
DBT you've made up your mind in advance that you will be mediocre no
DBT matter what you do, then you might as well choose a field where
DBT mediocrity is punished the least, but I can't imagine living my life
DBT like that.

Wake up and smell the coffee! In the real business world, mediocrity is
indeed
punished the least, at least most places. After 15 years of working in tiny
startups
run by corrupt managers, dysfunctional corporate cultures, and co-workers
who
took pleasure in sandbagging the true believers, I snapped. I resigned
without
notice, filed bankruptcy, and in general stayed away from engineering for
about
18 months. I bounced around some shelters across the country, found work
making
sandwhiches and cappucinos, washed dishes, cashiered at Toys R US; and I
also took antidepressants and psychotherapy.

I was prepared to stay like that forever, because I had completely lost my
trust
in the engineering workplace. No matter how talented or passionate I was,
at
the start of that time away my hands started shaking at the mere thought of
writing or debugging another line of code. And people actually gave me far
more common courtesy as a barista and cashier, than I ever obtained as a
software designer up until that point in time.

After 16 months, life was starting to become comfortably routine, my
therapist
noticed this and advised that I take a gamble and shop my resume, just once,
to a headhunter. I did so, and I thought nothing of it for the next 2
weeks.
Imagine my astonishment when a Fortune 500 wanted to fly me down for an
interview,
complete with rent-a-car, an overnight stay at a Sheraton, and 5-star
dining! Their
mission statement placed integrity first above all other things (with, of
course,
a honest days work being consider part of integrity).

During my interview, I was very candid about my experiences without being
overly
negative about them. I basically told them that they got my attention,
that there was
quite I lot I could do for them, and I was ready to take a chance on them if
they were
ready to take a chance on me. Not only did I get the job, but I wound up
being paid
more than I ever did in my life for doing less than I ever did in my life.
I was actually
starting to get bored, so I wound up volunteering to write tools for people,
and I brought
to bear all my small-company experience to bear on this. I've been there
for a few years
now, being allowed to work with very loose supervision, in the process
generating results
equivalent to a small team and gaining a lot of respect in the process.
This has helped
all the other areas of my life: I've actually developed enough confidence
in my career
and in myself to date, marry and start a family.

Moral of the story: Passion for your work is only effective when
reciprocated with
respect and empathy from your work. Following your dream can otherwise
wind up
becoming following through a nightmare.

DBT Not to slam those countries or the accomplished professionals in them,
DBT but some types of work are more easily outsourced than others. Some
DBT of the most exciting work in technology fields is not exported.

Untrue. Untrue. Untrue. These countries have us beat regarding education
of thier
elites, who with world-class MS and Ph.D. degrees based on European
standards
are more than capable of performing technically challenging and original
work.
These people don't need passion, they're satisfied to do as much as the most
passionate person in our country, for a living wage in thier country. And
they're
willing to take the abuse of the workplace because compared to their
cultures,
our expectations of personal fulfillment through work are, quite frankly,
infantile.


TES 2. There is rampant age discrimination in the field, and
TES companies make it extremely expensive to prove such. Your
TES chances of getting and keeping an engineering, software, or
TES electronics job diminish greatly upon reaching the age of
TES about 35. Your chances of such upon the age of 40 are such
TES that a great amount of luck is called for.

DBT This type of bitter (though generally true) remark reminds me of the
DBT lament of many single people. Sure, the vast majority of people you
DBT could possibly date won't work out, but you only need to find a few
DBT good fits in your entire life. Why be content to have an ordinary
DBT job, or an ordinary mate? The median age where I work is around 40,
DBT and our most cutting edge research is being done by people in their
DBT 50s and 60s. I'm 37 and I think I'm currently the youngest in our
DBT department.

Congratulations on finding yet another workers' paradise, but don't forget
to
look over your shoulder from time to time.


TES 3. Engineers and other "techies" have now become such a
TES commodity that at many large companies treat them with a fair
TES degree of contempt. Basically, Dilbert is more true to life
TES than you might think.

True enough. Drunk, drooling men in bars are a commodity, too,
receiving a good deal of contempt. When I set out to meet a woman, I
make sure I'm not drunk and drooling (or even in a bar!). Likewise,
when I apply for a job, I emphasize my unique abilities.

Sorry, the comparison doesn't wash. You can be a great, dapper, neat,
sociable, and well dressed engineer, and still be treated with a great
deal of contempt for not having the cojones to go into management, sales,
marketing, or legal. Engineering has actually become an entry level job
in the average organization regardless of size. Anyone who stays in
engineering after a few years is considered to lack ambition and therefore,
after that time, becomes layoff bait.


TES 4. Craftsmanship is no longer a guarantee of immortality.
TES Whatever dedication you place into your work will largely
TES wind up in a landfill eventually.

Our landfills are full of successful products which have made fortunes
for their creators, but I assume you're talking about projects being
scrapped instead of completed. Again, my outlook is far more
positive. If you can make machines bend to your will, your skills
will always be in demand.

Again, I ask, where's the immortality? Lawyers make laws. Doctors
prolong life. Soldiers get monuments. Owners make endowments and
fund chairs.

I have decided that I would rather seek immortality through my children
than attempt further to seek immortality in my chosen field. While the
work is great right now, and my passion for my work is back at the
level it used to be, I have learned my lesson: passion has to be tempered
with an awareness of the real world.

DBT
DBT TES Yes, this all sounds bleak. But this is life.
DBT
DBT TES In your point in life, I would recommend working your way
DBT TES through an accelerated liberal arts degree at a community
DBT TES college where you could possibly obtain some credits for life
DBT TES experience. Take practical courses: accounting, computer
DBT TES programming, 4 units of a foreign language, and how to teach
DBT TES English as a second language. Take some arts: pottery is
DBT TES generaly easy. Take math up to integral calculus. Then fill
DBT TES your mind with civics, western history, and culture.
DBT
DBT TES At that point you should be prepared to teach English in the
DBT TES Peoples' Republic of China.
DBT
DBT Wow, this sounds bitter. The original poster expressed enthusiasm and
DBT an interest in a specific field, and now you'd have him put his time
DBT and energy into just about everything else! Every one of the jobs you
DBT mentioned has a dreary place for its mediocre practitioners:
DBT accounting sweatshops, computer code grinders, etc. And for goodness
DBT sake why take up an art just because it's "generally easy"? I'm
DBT starting to wonder if Mr. Squire has ever felt like doing something
DBT and then done it and enjoyed it and felt good about it.

Read again what the poster is saying: he's tired of dead end jobs, and he
wants
to do something, anything, that is different, but doesn't exactly know what
that
is. My advice is designed to shake up his life in ways no one, not even
he, can predict... that's what's part of the fun. Consider:

1) A liberal arts college program is the very best way to begin gaining the
perspective needed to decide one's life's ambition. I emphasize some
courses
for the sake of later survival, but these should not dominate the real work
of the
curriculum, which is to develop an understanding of the greater reality of
the
world beyond work.

2) Even dead end jobs can be compensated for through the development of the
pleasures involved in living the life of the mind. These jobs can even be
a good
break from studying and pondering and questioning.

The orignal poster may or may not be able to find a better job after
finishing
a completely technical program of study, but if the technical market is dry
or
his chances of psychological survival are not significantly increased.
However,
a liberal education mixed with a sprinkling of additional survival skills
will make
him far more adaptable to stagnation or even outright adversity.

3) I forgot to mention the other side of finding one or more arts or
activities
which are generally easy to learn... these things are also generally easy
to teach!

Being able to teach a few skills which are easy to master tends to open more
doors
than you might think: it endears one to the vulnerable and gains respect
from
those who care for them.

4) I'm not being cynical regarding teaching English in the Peoples'
Republic. I have
been given the same advice from a dear friend of mine, long since passed
away, who
did this and wound up teaching far more than just English in a classroom.

You're teaching not just about what you speak, but also about your entire
life.
This is an experience which forces one to re-examine one's entire life from
every
angle, while at the same time developing confidence in all the smaller
things about
life by sharing them with other people who consider them exotic and
entertaining.




To the original poster of this thread, I'd say, examine your reasons
for pursuing electronics. If it's because you think you'll enjoy it
and really dig in, then do that. If it's just because you heard
that's where the money is these days, take a lesson from my old
girlfriend (and me, and Rush Limbaugh) and do something you're
passionate about.

David

Our friend, however, has nothing to lose by doing the completely unexpected.
My presciption for him is that he undertake a genuine adventure, with
adequate
preparation up front for all the surprises he will certainly encounter along
the way.

I was on the verge of doing this myself until I took the coward's way out
and gave
engineering one last chance. But I'm happy and reconciled with who I am, I
have
love and family, and in general I am more content even thought I did not
dare take
the road less traveled.


The Eternal Squire