"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

If that is intended as some jibe, it failed.


Rich coming from you!

On 01/12/2015 00:17, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/30/2015 4:54 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
On 30/11/15 21:47, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/30/2015 4:19 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
On 30/11/15 20:06, turdey wrote:
Brian Reay Wrote in message:
On 30/11/15 12:50, Rambo wrote:


And when you can pick up a chinese dual band mobile radio for £65 the
writing is surely on the wall for the Japanese Companies.........


While the cheap Chinese radios are good value, their overall
package of
performance, facilities, quality, etc. are still a long way from the
offerings of the established manufacturers in the field.

For a parallel, think about what happened with Lada, the old Skodas,
etc. They didn't put the makers of quality more expensive cars out of
business.

There is a place for the 'cheap and cheerful' Chinese radios,
especially
the amazing cheap VHF/UHF handhelds as all but 'disposable' radios.
But
even the better ones don't really compare overall to, say, an FT60.
Even
those which set out to be apparent competitors (like the early Baofeng
vs the V?8*) were not that comparable in terms of quality and
ergonomics.

(I can't recall if it was the VX8 or the VR8.)

Those with a long association with the hobby will recall the Navico
radios, which were claimed to be a cheap alternative to the various
Japanese mobiles. However, the number sold was pitiful. The quality
was
good but the overall 'package' was, at best, disappointing- not
least as
the manufacturer (who has a good history in marine kit) failed to
recognise what the market saw as key facilities. There are other
examples, including the various Garex radios.

In fact the Navico example is a good example of someone trying to
break
into the amateur market but thinking they could offer the narrower
range
of facilities which were applicable to their core business. They
simply
offered what was, essentially, a PMR/Marine radio to a more demanding
customer who had better alternatives.








Surely this is what we said about the Japanese stuff not so long ago?


Not really. The Japanese are pretty good at providing what people want.
Look at radios like the FT101, a doddle to operate, reliable, cheap (as
things went), etc.

Actually, most Japanese stuff was considered pretty cheap and poor
quality back in the 60's, at least here in the U.S. There wasn't much
(if any) for ham gear at the time, but the did have portable transistor
radios, stereos and other electronic equipment.

The vast majority of the good ham gear used here was American made
(Drake, World Radio Labs, Heathkit, Collins, etc.).


Obviously that is why they are no longer in the market.

These were amongst the best radios around - especially Collins, which
was made to military specifications. But they couldn't compete with the
Japanese manufacturers with their low overhead.

Obviously, however, you have never owned any of these pieces of
equipment. While not having all of the features of newer gear, I would
still stack a Collins S-Line over anything manufactured today. Maybe
that's why they still run $2K US on the used market.

OTOH, I never saw anything worthwhile coming out of the UK. The only
decent radios from Europe were German.

spot on OM ...

--
Man at Oxfam
All things DIGITAL do not work
No spare wheel isn't progress
Class A radio hams do exist
A rubber cam belt is not acceptable
I never asked to join the Freemasons

yes KW went west because couldn't compete as it was run by one english
bloke called Rowley Spears not a patch on Mr Hagasawa or Mr Inoue .....

don't know about Ken Wood though ......

--
Man at Oxfam
All things DIGITAL do not work
No spare wheel isn't progress
Class A radio hams do exist
A rubber cam belt is not acceptable
I never asked to join the Freemasons

On 12/1/2015 1:47 AM, Brian Reay wrote:
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/30/2015 4:54 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
On 30/11/15 21:47, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 11/30/2015 4:19 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
On 30/11/15 20:06, turdey wrote:
Brian Reay Wrote in message:
On 30/11/15 12:50, Rambo wrote:


And when you can pick up a chinese dual band mobile radio for £65 the
writing is surely on the wall for the Japanese Companies.........


While the cheap Chinese radios are good value, their overall
package of
performance, facilities, quality, etc. are still a long way from the
offerings of the established manufacturers in the field.

For a parallel, think about what happened with Lada, the old Skodas,
etc. They didn't put the makers of quality more expensive cars out of
business.

There is a place for the 'cheap and cheerful' Chinese radios,
especially
the amazing cheap VHF/UHF handhelds as all but 'disposable' radios.
But
even the better ones don't really compare overall to, say, an FT60.
Even
those which set out to be apparent competitors (like the early Baofeng
vs the V?8*) were not that comparable in terms of quality and
ergonomics.

(I can't recall if it was the VX8 or the VR8.)

Those with a long association with the hobby will recall the Navico
radios, which were claimed to be a cheap alternative to the various
Japanese mobiles. However, the number sold was pitiful. The quality
was
good but the overall 'package' was, at best, disappointing- not
least as
the manufacturer (who has a good history in marine kit) failed to
recognise what the market saw as key facilities. There are other
examples, including the various Garex radios.

In fact the Navico example is a good example of someone trying to
break
into the amateur market but thinking they could offer the narrower
range
of facilities which were applicable to their core business. They
simply
offered what was, essentially, a PMR/Marine radio to a more demanding
customer who had better alternatives.








Surely this is what we said about the Japanese stuff not so long ago?


Not really. The Japanese are pretty good at providing what people want.
Look at radios like the FT101, a doddle to operate, reliable, cheap (as
things went), etc.

Actually, most Japanese stuff was considered pretty cheap and poor
quality back in the 60's, at least here in the U.S. There wasn't much
(if any) for ham gear at the time, but the did have portable transistor
radios, stereos and other electronic equipment.

The vast majority of the good ham gear used here was American made
(Drake, World Radio Labs, Heathkit, Collins, etc.).


Obviously that is why they are no longer in the market.

These were amongst the best radios around - especially Collins, which
was made to military specifications. But they couldn't compete with the
Japanese manufacturers with their low overhead.

Building to military specs for the commercial market is hardly good
business when you can obtain the same required performance for far less.


Then why does a Collins S-Line in good condition still sell for $2K
US, despite limited features? The fact is, they still outperform
anything on the market.



Obviously, however, you have never owned any of these pieces of
equipment. While not having all of the features of newer gear, I would
still stack a Collins S-Line over anything manufactured today. Maybe
that's why they still run $2K US on the used market.


There are many reasons people will pay such prices but performance isn't a
key factor.

That's where you are wrong.


OTOH, I never saw anything worthwhile coming out of the UK. The only
decent radios from Europe were German.


If that is intended as some jibe, it failed.



So what came out of the UK?

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 12/1/2015 3:03 AM, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 30/11/2015 23:57, Michael Black wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 11/30/2015 4:19 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
On 30/11/15 20:06, turdey wrote:
Brian Reay Wrote in message:
On 30/11/15 12:50, Rambo wrote:


And when you can pick up a chinese dual band mobile radio for £65
the
writing is surely on the wall for the Japanese Companies.........


While the cheap Chinese radios are good value, their overall
package of
performance, facilities, quality, etc. are still a long way from the
offerings of the established manufacturers in the field.

For a parallel, think about what happened with Lada, the old Skodas,
etc. They didn't put the makers of quality more expensive cars out of
business.

There is a place for the 'cheap and cheerful' Chinese radios,
especially
the amazing cheap VHF/UHF handhelds as all but 'disposable' radios.
But
even the better ones don't really compare overall to, say, an FT60.
Even
those which set out to be apparent competitors (like the early
Baofeng
vs the V?8*) were not that comparable in terms of quality and
ergonomics.

(I can't recall if it was the VX8 or the VR8.)

Those with a long association with the hobby will recall the Navico
radios, which were claimed to be a cheap alternative to the various
Japanese mobiles. However, the number sold was pitiful. The quality
was
good but the overall 'package' was, at best, disappointing- not
least as
the manufacturer (who has a good history in marine kit) failed to
recognise what the market saw as key facilities. There are other
examples, including the various Garex radios.

In fact the Navico example is a good example of someone trying to
break
into the amateur market but thinking they could offer the narrower
range
of facilities which were applicable to their core business. They
simply
offered what was, essentially, a PMR/Marine radio to a more demanding
customer who had better alternatives.








Surely this is what we said about the Japanese stuff not so long ago?


Not really. The Japanese are pretty good at providing what people want.
Look at radios like the FT101, a doddle to operate, reliable, cheap (as
things went), etc.

Actually, most Japanese stuff was considered pretty cheap and poor
quality back in the 60's, at least here in the U.S. There wasn't much
(if any) for ham gear at the time, but the did have portable transistor
radios, stereos and other electronic equipment.

The vast majority of the good ham gear used here was American made
(Drake, World Radio Labs, Heathkit, Collins, etc.).


There was a transition. Early on, for reason I've never seen, Japan was
seen as cheap knockoffs in the US. That had to exist, but they also had
legit stuff, though maybe we simply didn't see the Sony stuff until
later.

But Japan made inroads via relabelling. So Lafayette and Radio Shack
sold Japanese gear, except under their only labels. Some of it was bad,
but it was early transistor period, it didn't seem like anyone knew how
to make good solid state equipment. As the big names in the US faded,
they were buying Japanese. So my Hallicrafters S-120A, bought in the
summer of 1971, was Japanese, I assume less a case of Hallicrafters
going to Japan and asking for a design and mostly an existing design
that Hallicrafters put their name on it. Drake had the TR-22 in the
early seventies, a portable 2M FM rig that could be had under other
names. SOme of the best inraods was because of the rise of 2M FM, the
existing US base being tube rigs intended for cars and the relatively
expensive Motorola Handie Talkies. So the Japanese came in either as
rebadged or Inoue and Standard etc. There wasn't much made in the US,
at least not capable of making enough.

ANd the Japanese also came via distributors. SOme of the big name ham
distributors had HF rigs under their own name, it was only after that
success that we started to see Yaesu and Kenwood coming under their own
name.

Michael

you certainly know your radio history ...but I still want another Clegg
FM27B .......you will be about the only person who would know what that
is....

Man at Oxfam
All things DIGITAL do not work
No spare wheel isn't progress
Class A radio hams do exist
A rubber cam belt is not acceptable
I never asked to join the Freemasons

Ah, yes, the good old FM27B. Big for a 2M rig, but one of (if not the)
first rig you didn't need to buy a pair of crystals for every channel.
I never had one, but had a couple of friends with them.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 01/12/2015 12:55, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 12/1/2015 3:03 AM, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 30/11/2015 23:57, Michael Black wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 11/30/2015 4:19 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
On 30/11/15 20:06, turdey wrote:
Brian Reay Wrote in message:
On 30/11/15 12:50, Rambo wrote:


And when you can pick up a chinese dual band mobile radio for £65
the
writing is surely on the wall for the Japanese Companies.........


While the cheap Chinese radios are good value, their overall
package of
performance, facilities, quality, etc. are still a long way from the
offerings of the established manufacturers in the field.

For a parallel, think about what happened with Lada, the old Skodas,
etc. They didn't put the makers of quality more expensive cars out of
business.

There is a place for the 'cheap and cheerful' Chinese radios,
especially
the amazing cheap VHF/UHF handhelds as all but 'disposable' radios.
But
even the better ones don't really compare overall to, say, an FT60.
Even
those which set out to be apparent competitors (like the early
Baofeng
vs the V?8*) were not that comparable in terms of quality and
ergonomics.

(I can't recall if it was the VX8 or the VR8.)

Those with a long association with the hobby will recall the Navico
radios, which were claimed to be a cheap alternative to the various
Japanese mobiles. However, the number sold was pitiful. The quality
was
good but the overall 'package' was, at best, disappointing- not
least as
the manufacturer (who has a good history in marine kit) failed to
recognise what the market saw as key facilities. There are other
examples, including the various Garex radios.

In fact the Navico example is a good example of someone trying to
break
into the amateur market but thinking they could offer the narrower
range
of facilities which were applicable to their core business. They
simply
offered what was, essentially, a PMR/Marine radio to a more demanding
customer who had better alternatives.








Surely this is what we said about the Japanese stuff not so long ago?


Not really. The Japanese are pretty good at providing what people want.
Look at radios like the FT101, a doddle to operate, reliable, cheap (as
things went), etc.

Actually, most Japanese stuff was considered pretty cheap and poor
quality back in the 60's, at least here in the U.S. There wasn't much
(if any) for ham gear at the time, but the did have portable transistor
radios, stereos and other electronic equipment.

The vast majority of the good ham gear used here was American made
(Drake, World Radio Labs, Heathkit, Collins, etc.).


There was a transition. Early on, for reason I've never seen, Japan was
seen as cheap knockoffs in the US. That had to exist, but they also had
legit stuff, though maybe we simply didn't see the Sony stuff until
later.

But Japan made inroads via relabelling. So Lafayette and Radio Shack
sold Japanese gear, except under their only labels. Some of it was bad,
but it was early transistor period, it didn't seem like anyone knew how
to make good solid state equipment. As the big names in the US faded,
they were buying Japanese. So my Hallicrafters S-120A, bought in the
summer of 1971, was Japanese, I assume less a case of Hallicrafters
going to Japan and asking for a design and mostly an existing design
that Hallicrafters put their name on it. Drake had the TR-22 in the
early seventies, a portable 2M FM rig that could be had under other
names. SOme of the best inraods was because of the rise of 2M FM, the
existing US base being tube rigs intended for cars and the relatively
expensive Motorola Handie Talkies. So the Japanese came in either as
rebadged or Inoue and Standard etc. There wasn't much made in the US,
at least not capable of making enough.

ANd the Japanese also came via distributors. SOme of the big name ham
distributors had HF rigs under their own name, it was only after that
success that we started to see Yaesu and Kenwood coming under their own
name.

Michael

you certainly know your radio history ...but I still want another Clegg
FM27B .......you will be about the only person who would know what that
is....

Man at Oxfam
All things DIGITAL do not work
No spare wheel isn't progress
Class A radio hams do exist
A rubber cam belt is not acceptable
I never asked to join the Freemasons

Ah, yes, the good old FM27B. Big for a 2M rig, but one of (if not the)
first rig you didn't need to buy a pair of crystals for every channel.
I never had one, but had a couple of friends with them.

they were great...you had to net the tx to the rx such fun ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOz9wQq74Fk

--
Man at Oxfam
All things DIGITAL do not work
No spare wheel isn't progress
Class A radio hams do exist
A rubber cam belt is not acceptable
I never asked to join the Freemasons

On 12/1/2015 10:41 AM, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 01/12/2015 12:55, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 12/1/2015 3:03 AM, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 30/11/2015 23:57, Michael Black wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2015, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 11/30/2015 4:19 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
On 30/11/15 20:06, turdey wrote:
Brian Reay Wrote in message:
On 30/11/15 12:50, Rambo wrote:


And when you can pick up a chinese dual band mobile radio for £65
the
writing is surely on the wall for the Japanese Companies.........


While the cheap Chinese radios are good value, their overall
package of
performance, facilities, quality, etc. are still a long way from
the
offerings of the established manufacturers in the field.

For a parallel, think about what happened with Lada, the old
Skodas,
etc. They didn't put the makers of quality more expensive cars
out of
business.

There is a place for the 'cheap and cheerful' Chinese radios,
especially
the amazing cheap VHF/UHF handhelds as all but 'disposable' radios.
But
even the better ones don't really compare overall to, say, an FT60.
Even
those which set out to be apparent competitors (like the early
Baofeng
vs the V?8*) were not that comparable in terms of quality and
ergonomics.

(I can't recall if it was the VX8 or the VR8.)

Those with a long association with the hobby will recall the Navico
radios, which were claimed to be a cheap alternative to the various
Japanese mobiles. However, the number sold was pitiful. The quality
was
good but the overall 'package' was, at best, disappointing- not
least as
the manufacturer (who has a good history in marine kit) failed to
recognise what the market saw as key facilities. There are other
examples, including the various Garex radios.

In fact the Navico example is a good example of someone trying to
break
into the amateur market but thinking they could offer the narrower
range
of facilities which were applicable to their core business. They
simply
offered what was, essentially, a PMR/Marine radio to a more
demanding
customer who had better alternatives.








Surely this is what we said about the Japanese stuff not so long
ago?


Not really. The Japanese are pretty good at providing what people
want.
Look at radios like the FT101, a doddle to operate, reliable,
cheap (as
things went), etc.

Actually, most Japanese stuff was considered pretty cheap and poor
quality back in the 60's, at least here in the U.S. There wasn't much
(if any) for ham gear at the time, but the did have portable
transistor
radios, stereos and other electronic equipment.

The vast majority of the good ham gear used here was American made
(Drake, World Radio Labs, Heathkit, Collins, etc.).


There was a transition. Early on, for reason I've never seen, Japan
was
seen as cheap knockoffs in the US. That had to exist, but they also
had
legit stuff, though maybe we simply didn't see the Sony stuff until
later.

But Japan made inroads via relabelling. So Lafayette and Radio Shack
sold Japanese gear, except under their only labels. Some of it was
bad,
but it was early transistor period, it didn't seem like anyone knew how
to make good solid state equipment. As the big names in the US faded,
they were buying Japanese. So my Hallicrafters S-120A, bought in the
summer of 1971, was Japanese, I assume less a case of Hallicrafters
going to Japan and asking for a design and mostly an existing design
that Hallicrafters put their name on it. Drake had the TR-22 in the
early seventies, a portable 2M FM rig that could be had under other
names. SOme of the best inraods was because of the rise of 2M FM, the
existing US base being tube rigs intended for cars and the relatively
expensive Motorola Handie Talkies. So the Japanese came in either as
rebadged or Inoue and Standard etc. There wasn't much made in the US,
at least not capable of making enough.

ANd the Japanese also came via distributors. SOme of the big name ham
distributors had HF rigs under their own name, it was only after that
success that we started to see Yaesu and Kenwood coming under their own
name.

Michael

you certainly know your radio history ...but I still want another Clegg
FM27B .......you will be about the only person who would know what that
is....

Man at Oxfam
All things DIGITAL do not work
No spare wheel isn't progress
Class A radio hams do exist
A rubber cam belt is not acceptable
I never asked to join the Freemasons

Ah, yes, the good old FM27B. Big for a 2M rig, but one of (if not the)
first rig you didn't need to buy a pair of crystals for every channel.
I never had one, but had a couple of friends with them.

they were great...you had to net the tx to the rx such fun ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOz9wQq74Fk


Ah, yes. It brings back memories. And that was actually a rig you
could work on. It wasn't so compact you needed an electron microscope
to see the parts and so densely packed a microbe couldn't move around
But it was a good rig.

But if you look at it closely, it's receiving on what looks like 146.69,
which is not a valid channel in the U.S. It must be in another country
- I don't know what the channels are in Europe, for instance.

And it's transmitting on 146.67 (which is a repeater *output* in the
U.S.) or 146.68 (not valid). But that wouldn't be a good combination
for either simplex or a repeater.

Going back a little further - do you remember the Galaxy FM-210?

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 01/12/2015 16:09, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Galaxy FM-210
em no ...the clegg and the drake tr22 six channel xtal job is about as
far back as I go ....with 2m stuff anyway...a bit more modern was
playing with a weird tri-band drake uv3 in 1979 ....about as modern as I
went with merrycan gear ....

--
Man at Oxfam
All things DIGITAL do not work
No spare wheel isn't progress
Class A radio hams do exist
A rubber cam belt is not acceptable
I never asked to join the Freemasons

On 12/1/2015 11:20 AM, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 01/12/2015 16:09, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Galaxy FM-210
em no ...the clegg and the drake tr22 six channel xtal job is about as
far back as I go ....with 2m stuff anyway...a bit more modern was
playing with a weird tri-band drake uv3 in 1979 ....about as modern as I
went with merrycan gear ....


The FM-210 was the first solid state FM rig made for 2M ham bands, if
not the first 2M FM rig specifically for the ham bands. Before that
came out, we used converted tube-type Motorola "G" and "A" strips and GE
Prog lines.

Converting these from VHF high band (150-174Mhz) was pretty easy.
Change crystals, add a few pf to the receiver front end and transmitter
output circuit and it would tune right up. But most were single
channel; if you found a dual channel one you were in hog heaven.

And the current drain - most had vibrator power supplies, although a few
older ones had dynamotors. 10-25W, depending on the model, and would
pull 8-10 amps in receive and up to 20 amps keyed.

Those were the good old days, when you could actually work on stuff
(like you could cars).

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 01/12/2015 16:50, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 12/1/2015 11:20 AM, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 01/12/2015 16:09, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Galaxy FM-210
em no ...the clegg and the drake tr22 six channel xtal job is about as
far back as I go ....with 2m stuff anyway...a bit more modern was
playing with a weird tri-band drake uv3 in 1979 ....about as modern as I
went with merrycan gear ....


The FM-210 was the first solid state FM rig made for 2M ham bands, if
not the first 2M FM rig specifically for the ham bands. Before that
came out, we used converted tube-type Motorola "G" and "A" strips and GE
Prog lines.

Converting these from VHF high band (150-174Mhz) was pretty easy.
Change crystals, add a few pf to the receiver front end and transmitter
output circuit and it would tune right up. But most were single
channel; if you found a dual channel one you were in hog heaven.

And the current drain - most had vibrator power supplies, although a few
older ones had dynamotors. 10-25W, depending on the model, and would
pull 8-10 amps in receive and up to 20 amps keyed.

Those were the good old days, when you could actually work on stuff
(like you could cars).

yes but you can still work on cars if you are OBD2 equipped to figure
out what bit to replace...!

https://www.photobox.co.uk/my/album?album_id=3404690477

--
Man at Oxfam
All things DIGITAL do not work
No spare wheel isn't progress
Class A radio hams do exist
A rubber cam belt is not acceptable
I never asked to join the Freemasons