Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 2:15 PM:
On 06/08/2017 18:52, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 1:37 PM:
On 06/08/2017 17:18, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 5:26 AM:
On 05/08/2017 23:25, rickman wrote:
You seem to be completely misunderstanding the operation of the Shortt
clock. The slave pendulum has no need for correction of circular error.

I'm sorry, but you totally misunderstood what I was saying, which was
that because all pendulums exhibit circular error, when the hit occurs
in the hit and miss synchroniser and foreshortens the swing, then, for
that half-cycle, and only that half cycle, the frequency is
changed, as it must be.

Just as in the electronic PLL, instantaneous changes of phase have
instantaneous changes of frequency, no matter how short lived,
associated with them.

What you say about frequency vs. phase is true and how the Shortt clock
adjusts phase, but it has nothing to do with circular error of the
pendulum. The correction of the phase is from the added spring resistance
shortening the time as well as the travel of the pendulum. The fact that
the swing is shorter and the second order circular error will create a
tiny error in the timing is pretty much irrelevant. The real change is
from the added spring constant changing the first order effect in the
pendulum equation. The coefficient of the gravitational constant is
effectively changed by the spring.

Is that more clear?


You continue to misunderstand. Any pendulum swinging with circular error
speeds up for shorter amplitude; speeding up means increased frequency.
Therefore, for the half cycle inwhich there is a hit, a shorter amplitude
and hence instantaneous higher frequency exists.

I understand perfectly and explained it for you in excruciating detail.
The change in phase of the Shortt clock slave pendulum is due to the FIRST
ORDER change in the effective gravitational constant in the pendulum
equation by engaging the leaf spring. While the reduced amplitude of the
swing *will* cause a SECOND ORDER effect in the motion of the pendulum, it
will be MUCH SMALLER than the FIRST ORDER effect.

What part of this do you not understand or not agree with?


It's not that I do not understand nor disagree with you, it's that
you're off on a complete tangent to what I was suggesting, and
do not realise it.

Sorry, I was talking about how the Shortt clock adjusts the timing of the
slave pendulum. What are you talking about?

--

Rick C

On 06/08/2017 22:15, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 2:15 PM:
On 06/08/2017 18:52, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 1:37 PM:
On 06/08/2017 17:18, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 5:26 AM:
On 05/08/2017 23:25, rickman wrote:
You seem to be completely misunderstanding the operation of the
Shortt
clock. The slave pendulum has no need for correction of circular
error.

I'm sorry, but you totally misunderstood what I was saying, which was
that because all pendulums exhibit circular error, when the hit
occurs
in the hit and miss synchroniser and foreshortens the swing, then,
for
that half-cycle, and only that half cycle, the frequency is
changed, as it must be.

Just as in the electronic PLL, instantaneous changes of phase have
instantaneous changes of frequency, no matter how short lived,
associated with them.

What you say about frequency vs. phase is true and how the Shortt
clock
adjusts phase, but it has nothing to do with circular error of the
pendulum. The correction of the phase is from the added spring
resistance
shortening the time as well as the travel of the pendulum. The
fact that
the swing is shorter and the second order circular error will create a
tiny error in the timing is pretty much irrelevant. The real
change is
from the added spring constant changing the first order effect in the
pendulum equation. The coefficient of the gravitational constant is
effectively changed by the spring.

Is that more clear?


You continue to misunderstand. Any pendulum swinging with circular
error
speeds up for shorter amplitude; speeding up means increased frequency.
Therefore, for the half cycle inwhich there is a hit, a shorter
amplitude
and hence instantaneous higher frequency exists.

I understand perfectly and explained it for you in excruciating detail.
The change in phase of the Shortt clock slave pendulum is due to the
FIRST
ORDER change in the effective gravitational constant in the pendulum
equation by engaging the leaf spring. While the reduced amplitude of
the
swing *will* cause a SECOND ORDER effect in the motion of the
pendulum, it
will be MUCH SMALLER than the FIRST ORDER effect.

What part of this do you not understand or not agree with?


It's not that I do not understand nor disagree with you, it's that
you're off on a complete tangent to what I was suggesting, and
do not realise it.

Sorry, I was talking about how the Shortt clock adjusts the timing of
the slave pendulum. What are you talking about?


This is one of Evans' usual tactics Rick, he is out of his depth so he
is trying to muddy the water. Before long he will be hurling abuse in
earnest.

On 06/08/2017 22:15, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 2:15 PM:
On 06/08/2017 18:52, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 1:37 PM:
On 06/08/2017 17:18, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 5:26 AM:
On 05/08/2017 23:25, rickman wrote:
You seem to be completely misunderstanding the operation of the
Shortt
clock. The slave pendulum has no need for correction of circular
error.

I'm sorry, but you totally misunderstood what I was saying, which was
that because all pendulums exhibit circular error, when the hit
occurs
in the hit and miss synchroniser and foreshortens the swing, then,
for
that half-cycle, and only that half cycle, the frequency is
changed, as it must be.

Just as in the electronic PLL, instantaneous changes of phase have
instantaneous changes of frequency, no matter how short lived,
associated with them.

What you say about frequency vs. phase is true and how the Shortt
clock
adjusts phase, but it has nothing to do with circular error of the
pendulum. The correction of the phase is from the added spring
resistance
shortening the time as well as the travel of the pendulum. The
fact that
the swing is shorter and the second order circular error will create a
tiny error in the timing is pretty much irrelevant. The real
change is
from the added spring constant changing the first order effect in the
pendulum equation. The coefficient of the gravitational constant is
effectively changed by the spring.

Is that more clear?


You continue to misunderstand. Any pendulum swinging with circular
error
speeds up for shorter amplitude; speeding up means increased frequency.
Therefore, for the half cycle inwhich there is a hit, a shorter
amplitude
and hence instantaneous higher frequency exists.

I understand perfectly and explained it for you in excruciating detail.
The change in phase of the Shortt clock slave pendulum is due to the
FIRST
ORDER change in the effective gravitational constant in the pendulum
equation by engaging the leaf spring. While the reduced amplitude of
the
swing *will* cause a SECOND ORDER effect in the motion of the
pendulum, it
will be MUCH SMALLER than the FIRST ORDER effect.

What part of this do you not understand or not agree with?


It's not that I do not understand nor disagree with you, it's that
you're off on a complete tangent to what I was suggesting, and
do not realise it.

Sorry, I was talking about how the Shortt clock adjusts the timing of
the slave pendulum. What are you talking about?


I ... explained it for you in excruciating detail.

Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 6:10 PM:
On 06/08/2017 22:15, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 2:15 PM:
On 06/08/2017 18:52, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 1:37 PM:
On 06/08/2017 17:18, rickman wrote:
Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote on 8/6/2017 5:26 AM:
On 05/08/2017 23:25, rickman wrote:
You seem to be completely misunderstanding the operation of the Shortt
clock. The slave pendulum has no need for correction of circular
error.

I'm sorry, but you totally misunderstood what I was saying, which was
that because all pendulums exhibit circular error, when the hit occurs
in the hit and miss synchroniser and foreshortens the swing, then, for
that half-cycle, and only that half cycle, the frequency is
changed, as it must be.

Just as in the electronic PLL, instantaneous changes of phase have
instantaneous changes of frequency, no matter how short lived,
associated with them.

What you say about frequency vs. phase is true and how the Shortt clock
adjusts phase, but it has nothing to do with circular error of the
pendulum. The correction of the phase is from the added spring
resistance
shortening the time as well as the travel of the pendulum. The fact that
the swing is shorter and the second order circular error will create a
tiny error in the timing is pretty much irrelevant. The real change is
from the added spring constant changing the first order effect in the
pendulum equation. The coefficient of the gravitational constant is
effectively changed by the spring.

Is that more clear?


You continue to misunderstand. Any pendulum swinging with circular error
speeds up for shorter amplitude; speeding up means increased frequency.
Therefore, for the half cycle inwhich there is a hit, a shorter amplitude
and hence instantaneous higher frequency exists.

I understand perfectly and explained it for you in excruciating detail.
The change in phase of the Shortt clock slave pendulum is due to the FIRST
ORDER change in the effective gravitational constant in the pendulum
equation by engaging the leaf spring. While the reduced amplitude of the
swing *will* cause a SECOND ORDER effect in the motion of the pendulum, it
will be MUCH SMALLER than the FIRST ORDER effect.

What part of this do you not understand or not agree with?


It's not that I do not understand nor disagree with you, it's that
you're off on a complete tangent to what I was suggesting, and
do not realise it.

Sorry, I was talking about how the Shortt clock adjusts the timing of the
slave pendulum. What are you talking about?


I ... explained it for you in excruciating detail.

No, you simply state that the circular error exists for pendulum clocks and
that the swing of the Shortt clock slave pendulum is shortened a small
amount. You imply the shorter swing of the pendulum invokes the circular
error factor to change the speed of the pendulum changing the phase.

None of that is wrong. But the circular arc error a very small effect. As
I have clearly explained to you the leaf spring also causes the first order
effect of changing the constant in the pendulum equation. This is a *much*
larger effect than the small circular error effect.

You say you understand what I am saying, but it directly shows what you are
describing is at best, a second order effect. If you don't disagree with
that how can it be tangential to what you are saying? Or is that a play on
words with the circular error???

--

Rick C