Hi,

Anybody have a library of transistor databooks
from the early 60's? I'm trying to find technical
info on the following devices:

Power Transistors:
Motorola 48S23 in TO3 Steel case

Signal Transistors:

Motorola 48S45 (624 date code or other marking)
Motorola MA900 (Sort of crossed to NTE 102A or ECG 102)
Mototola SM1824 (612 date code or other marking)
(one schematic I have shows this to be a
PNP type)

2N1192 (Schematic shows as PNP type - one hit shows as
Germanium)
Motorola SM2140 (Schematic shows as PNP type)
GA987 (980425 date code or other marking)

I'm unsure about the manufacturer of the last device. All the other have
the Motorola circle M logo clearly marked, but it is not on that device.
The system these devices are in was manufactured in the fall of 1963
so it is likely that the deisgn is from the 1960 to 1962. I'd like to
browse
through a 1960 to 1963 Motorola data book. I'm suspecting all of these
to be PNP type Germanium devices, but that is just a guess.

Any help appreciated.

Ronnie, N5CSE

In article , "Ronnie"
wrote:

Anybody have a library of transistor databooks
from the early 60's? I'm trying to find technical
info on the following devices:

Ronnie-

With the exception of the 2N1192, most of your numbers don't sound like
Motorola numbers.

It may be that Motorola manufactured standard parts for a company, and
marked them with that company's proprietary numbers instead. Under their
agreements, Motorola is unlikely to provide any cross-reference
information, requiring you to purchase replacements from the other
company. Even other divisions of Motorola did this!

There may be some cross-reference information, but it would help to know
the manufacturer of the equipment the Motorola parts were used in.

Have you tried a Google search for each of the numbers?

73, Fred, K4DII

"Fred McKenzie" wrote in message
...
In article , "Ronnie"
wrote:

Anybody have a library of transistor databooks
from the early 60's? I'm trying to find technical
info on the following devices:

Ronnie-

With the exception of the 2N1192, most of your numbers don't sound like
Motorola numbers.

It may be that Motorola manufactured standard parts for a company, and
marked them with that company's proprietary numbers instead. Under their
agreements, Motorola is unlikely to provide any cross-reference
information, requiring you to purchase replacements from the other
company. Even other divisions of Motorola did this!

There may be some cross-reference information, but it would help to know
the manufacturer of the equipment the Motorola parts were used in.

Have you tried a Google search for each of the numbers?
73, Fred, K4DII


Ronnie,
I concurr. Those (non 2N numbers) are not "public" numbers, but
"in-house" numbers belonging to the original equipment's manufacturer. I
have some old references, but there IS stuff on the web.
AllDataSheet gives some specs on the 2N1192:
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datashe...TC/2N1192.html

Alloy Junction Germanium Transistor
PNP 200mw.
40 V Vcb
25 V Vce (R) whatever that means
hfe 74 typ
2 MHz Ft
TO-5 case

73, Steve, K9DCI

As Fred and Steve noted, you have a bunch of "house-numbered"
transistors, and one that's relatively easy. Actually, the MA900 seems
to be from a series of germanium parts. I have numbers on both sides
of it, but not that particular one, in my book. I do have a full
Motorola data sheet on the 2N1192, in my 1969 Motorola "Semiconductor
Data Book." Since I'm about to scan something else, I scanned it into
a PDF (as images, not text). It's not great, but it's legible. Email
me if you'd like a copy.

Cheers,
Tom

Thanks Fred, Steve, Tom:

I think you guys are correct about these being house
numbered devices. They are from an old Piper autopilot
that was manufactured for Piper by Mitchell Industries
of Mineral Wells, TX (now Century Flight Systems).
I noticed that 2 of the 12 power transistors had
been replaced at some point in time and are marked
with "Mitchell Industries MN92". Since this was an
avionics application, it is likely that these were marked
specifically for Mitchell, initially with the 48S23 device
number and then later with Mitchell's name and MN92
marking.

I've made an attempt to see what information Centrury
Flight Systems is able and/or willing to provide, but so
far they have not been too responsive. I'm also looking
for a spare amplifier from the aircraft salvage yards and
avionics shops.

My main interest in all of this was to generate a schematic
of the amplifier and do a bit of reverse engineering in order
to better understand the overall design of the system. The
service manual for the autopilot system did not include a
schematic or any details of the amplifier.

Thanks again for the help.

Ronnie


"K7ITM" wrote in message
oups.com...
As Fred and Steve noted, you have a bunch of "house-numbered"
transistors, and one that's relatively easy. Actually, the MA900 seems
to be from a series of germanium parts. I have numbers on both sides
of it, but not that particular one, in my book. I do have a full
Motorola data sheet on the 2N1192, in my 1969 Motorola "Semiconductor
Data Book." Since I'm about to scan something else, I scanned it into
a PDF (as images, not text). It's not great, but it's legible. Email
me if you'd like a copy.

Cheers,
Tom

From that era, and from what you know so far (that they are apparently
pretty much all germanium parts), it shouldn't be too difficult to
deduce how it worked. It's unlikely any of the active parts are
particularly esoteric. Usually you can figure out the polarity of the
parts from the schematic, and assuming about 0.3V for forward junction
bias and current gains typical of the power and signal transistors then
in use should get you close to what you need. I suppose nothing in an
autopilot needs to be very fast, so it's very unlikely any are RF
transistors. It's possible that the circuit requires close tolerance
on some feature (like gain), but that's poor circuit design and I'd
hope for better of them. Once you have a circuit diagram, maybe you
could try "spicing" it, if you're not comfortable with a simple paper
analysis.

Good luck with it.

Cheers,
Tom

Tome,

I agree with all you've said. In general the autopliot
amp is a DC circuit and has a slow response time.

However, this system does generate RF signals which
are used to sense the pitch and roll attitude and the postion
of the servos.

This autopilot system uses variable inductors to sense pitch
and bank information from the attitude gyro. Each one consists
of an iron and aluminum metal vane attached to the corresponding
axis of the atitude gyro which moves in front of a iron core coil as a
pick up. I found a test box designed for the system that includes a
jack that provides a dummy AI gyro allowing the substituion of its
inductors in place of the actual gyro for bench testing. It contains
standard looking RF coils with tunable slugs.

The service manual states an operating frequency of 10 MHz, but that is
stated only as an exmaple. I'm not sure it that is the actual freq or not.
The resonant frequency is determined by the inductance in the AI gyro,
air variable caps in the servos and some variable air caps used for trim
and centering adjustments. The circuirt is arranged so that as the airplane
changes pitch or bank, the changes in reactance cause the circuit to change
frequency. A discriminator in the amp detects the frequency change,
produces
a DC voltage which is amplified to drive the servo motor in the appropriate
direction to bring the circuit back into resonnance via the feedback caps
that sense servo postion. This or course moves the control surfaces and
brings the airplane back to level flight attitude.

The components are connected together with specific lengths of low
capacitance cable. The cable and connectors appear to be very similar
to that used in GM automobiles in the 1960s. At least my 1966 Pontiac
had a similar cable and connector from the antenna to the radio. It is a
hollow plastic tube with a very small center conductor that is loosely
coiled
inside the plastic tube. There is a braided shield over the outside of the
plastic
tube, and a outer jacket over that. Some people have pointed out it is very
similar to RG-62, 93 ohm coax without the spirial wound center insulator /
spacer. I measured about 10.5 pF per foot on a 28" piece of this cable with
connectors installed on each end.

This has been quite a project. I basically have seen all the components
work
in the airplane at various times, but the system as a whole is intermittent.
Most time the wing leveler funciton works correctly but once in a while it
wants to turn right. The pitch circuit has been working but is now acting
up. The altitude hold was badly out of adjustment, but I was able to get
that setup properly and working, but the climb and descent airspeeds are
not right yet. I'm not sure if I've got bad connections, intermittent
components
in the amplifier or both. I'm planning to pull the cable assemblies out
along
with the amplifier and get it on the bench for testing.

Therefore, it would sure help to have a basic understadning of the amp
circuit
during that process. Therefore, I thought learning about the transistors
charateristics
and the inductance values would be helpful. I've already measured all the
cap
values and ranges. Next step is to generate a schematic for the amp and
learn how it is supposed to work.

It might also be fun to design and built a replacement for the amplifier
using modern components.

Thanks again for your help.

Ronnie


"K7ITM" wrote in message
oups.com...
From that era, and from what you know so far (that they are apparently
pretty much all germanium parts), it shouldn't be too difficult to
deduce how it worked. It's unlikely any of the active parts are
particularly esoteric. Usually you can figure out the polarity of the
parts from the schematic, and assuming about 0.3V for forward junction
bias and current gains typical of the power and signal transistors then
in use should get you close to what you need. I suppose nothing in an
autopilot needs to be very fast, so it's very unlikely any are RF
transistors. It's possible that the circuit requires close tolerance
on some feature (like gain), but that's poor circuit design and I'd
hope for better of them. Once you have a circuit diagram, maybe you
could try "spicing" it, if you're not comfortable with a simple paper
analysis.

Good luck with it.

Cheers,
Tom

Hi Ronnie,

As others have already pointed out to you, most of the numbers that
you've posted are manufacturer's parts numbers, and not Motorola type
numbers. (Unregisted Motorola devices type generally begin with the
letter "M" except for some diodes.)

Checking in my 1966 Motorola Semiconductor Device Manual, the MA900 is
a high-voltage switch that is usually employed for driving neon
readouts, relays etc. The family is Germanium, PNP. The MA900 is not
specifically listed, but two other later member's of the MA 900 family
are. IIRC, the deviced listed in the book are the MA909 and MA910,
which likely have improved parameters over the original MA900.
Essentially a 75Volt devices with a current capacity of up to 200-Ma
capable of 150-mw.

The 2N1192 is also listed (2N192-2N1194) as PNP germanium transistors
for high-gain audio amplifier and switching use.

The book contains data sheets on both the above devices, which I would
be happy to scan and email to you if you want them. Can't be of any
help on the other devices.

Just let me know. My email address is , not the
address shown on the post which is intentionally obsolete to discourage
spammers.

73s, Harry C.

Ronnie, just as a suggestion, (although you've likely already tried),
try and obtain a technical or service manual for the system. Many of
these will included a cross-reference from the manufacturer's part ID
to a and industry standard.

Even a Sams folder would help you here, if one was ever published. Nice
thing about Sams folders is that they almost never go away once
published, only become a bit brown with age! :-)

Harry C.

Thanks Harry.

I do have a service manual for the system published
by Piper, however it has no details of the electronic
compoents, only the electro-mechanical stuff. It does
have enough overall theory of operation information
to help get me started with the electronics. I'm also
trying to find out what help the orginal manufacture
can be. They are still in business, although operating
under a different name. So far, all I'm getting is their
hold message, but if I can ever get someone on the phone
I might get some help there.

Concerning your follow-up post, another gentleman has
already emailed me a scanned datasheet for the 2N1192
and the general info you provided on the MA900 like
devices should get me going there.

Thanks again for the help.
Ronnie

wrote in message
oups.com...
Ronnie, just as a suggestion, (although you've likely already tried),
try and obtain a technical or service manual for the system. Many of
these will included a cross-reference from the manufacturer's part ID
to a and industry standard.

Even a Sams folder would help you here, if one was ever published. Nice
thing about Sams folders is that they almost never go away once
published, only become a bit brown with age! :-)

Harry C.