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#21
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On Feb 29, 10:20 am, Klystron wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote on Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:36:39 EST: When a member noted that the ARS frequencies were there for use after the normal comms weren't working, he replied " Every thing we do is a matter of life and death, so we can use your frequencies any way we wish". It is not as simple as that. What constitutes an emergency? "Imminent danger of loss of life, serious injury, or damage/loss of property". Or verbiage something like that. If an ambulance crew is transporting a 90 year old heart attack victim, it is certainly a matter of life or death for that one patient. Agreed. But what if they are transporting several people - say, a young family that was in a serious auto accident? Or suppose they were transporting desperately-needed medicines, blood, etc., during an epidemic? However, if the ambulance breaks down, they can't commandeer your car. For a government agency to seize private property (a category that includes repeaters, transceivers, etc.) for their own use, they must have a declaration of emergency, declaration of martial law, or, in individual cases, a court order. I'm not sure what the ultimate legality is, in a case like that or the others I described. I suspect that government folks would not seize private property for emergency use unless they were desperate, because of the possible liability. OTOH, would you want to have it on your conscience that a person or a family died because you wouldn't let the ambulance folks use your car when it was desperately needed? The fire department employee who claimed that the FD could take over an amateur radio club's repeaters anytime that they wanted to do so was dead wrong. I don't think the FD person wanted the repeaters. He said they could use the frequencies, not the repeaters. And the frequencies are public property, after all. An amateur or club might own the repeater but they don't own the frequencies. Further complicating the situation is the fact that many if not most amateur radio repeaters aren't installed on the owner's property. For example, one of the repeaters I use is on top of a local hospital, where its antenna shares rooftop space with antennas for other radio services. (It's an excellent location and gives very good coverage). It's connected to the hospital's backup power system, too. The repeater club pays a nominal fee for the electric power and rent. Given that level of community support, don't the repeater owners have some responsibility to the community? Like the situation of the broken-down ambulance, would any radio amateur want it on his/her conscience that a building burned down, and/ or people died, because s/he wouldn't let the emergency service people use an amateur radio repeater in an emergency when it was desperately needed? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#22
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In article ,
Klystron wrote: AF6AY wrote: Michael Coslo wrote on Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:36:39 EST: When a member noted that the ARS frequencies were there for use after the normal comms weren't working, he replied " Every thing we do is a matter of life and death, so we can use your frequencies any way we wish". That was not only wrong, but scary that people that think in that manner are coming into the hobby with such an attitude. That person was more right than wrong. If one bothers to look, the small-number Parts of Title 47 C.F.R. state clearly that ANYONE can use ANY radio frequency to call for assistance if a situation is really life or death...licensed or not. True. Phil Kane could probably quote the Part and wording off the top of his head but, not being an attorney, I would have to search the Parts (all freely accessible). Besides, someone in here would want to start a whole steamy argument thread on that, arguing minutiae on the whichness of the what...:-) Memory says it is the Part on commercial radio licenses but undoubtedly someone in here will say 'I am wrong.' [sigh] It is not as simple as that. What constitutes an emergency? If an ambulance crew is transporting a 90 year old heart attack victim, it is certainly a matter of life or death for that one patient. However, if the ambulance breaks down, they can't commandeer your car. For a government agency to seize private property (a category that includes repeaters, transceivers, etc.) for their own use, they must have a declaration of emergency, declaration of martial law, or, in individual cases, a court order. The fire department employee who claimed that the FD could take over an amateur radio club's repeaters anytime that they wanted to do so was dead wrong. Well actually AF6AY, and Mike are reading more into those passages of Title 47 than they were, and are, intended, by the Commission. Phil, being an ex FCC Lawyer can expound on the intent, but when I was a Resident Field Agent, it was understood within the Commission, that Amateurs, operating within their Licenses, are NOT restricted to Frequencies, modes, or just about any other restriction, of operation, during Safety of Life situations, that are authorized by the PART 97, but this does NOT Allow them to use Frequencies NOT Authorized under than Part. The same is true for Licensees operating under other Parts like 90, 87, and 80, where that Specific Language is used in the Part. The fact of the matter is, that you only get in trouble, IF someone complains, or has a problem with your operation, and is willing to go on the Record with their objection with your operation, and Force an investigation, of the incident. Sometimes Common Sense does prevail, but sometimes it turns into a very BIG Deal. Case in Point, a few years back, there was an incident in California, where a young fellow used his Mod'ed HT to beak into the Local Sheriff's Frequency to report an injured Hiker. The Sheriff took offense to that intrusion, and there was a GIANT BrewHAHA, that as I recall, Phil was involved in. We had quite a discussion about the situation, between ourselves about the incident, and again, as I recall the issue was settled out of HQ by some of the BIG GUN Lawyers back there. -- Bruce in alaska add path after fast to reply |
#23
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AF6AY wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote on Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:36:39 EST: AF6AY wrote: Michael Coslo wrote on Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:00:40 EST: Do we HAVE to 'attract new blood?' Serious question. We do need new people to replace those who leave for one reason or the other. I want someone to talk to on the other end, and don't want the Amateur radio community to become closed and eventually die out. That seems a tad premature to me. At present there are 722K TOTAL licensees and the expiration rate is roughly 27K/year. If that keeps up without any newcomers, it would be 26.7 years before all were gone. [of course there will be newcomers...but how many depends on the attitude of the old-timers they come in contact with] ... We are NOT required to DO certain things in the hobby just because some old-timers say we MUST do those besides the regulations that all must obey. I'm fortunate that I never had that experience. Of course, if someone ever did tell me how I was supposed to use my time in the hobby, I think I would politely decline, and go do what I wanted to do. 8^) Well, from my experience (at work or at play) I've had some who INSISTED on telling me what I 'should' be doing. Some of those got rather antagonistic about it. "We don't DO that kind of thing in fill-in-the-blank" kind of comment. It was so prevalent among amateur radio licensees that I encountered that it turned me off of bothering to get a license for a long time. That's been my experience over the last half century and I spent that time working IN the electronics industry. I'll have to say that the above attitude was reflected in the older amateur-radio-interest newsgroups and was partly due to the creation of rec.radio.amateur.moderated. ... I don't know if you were watching the group a few weeks ago, but I related a story about an emergency comm person speaking at a club meeting. I was 'reading the mail' but didn't bother with it much. :-) When a member noted that the ARS frequencies were there for use after the normal comms weren't working, he replied " Every thing we do is a matter of life and death, so we can use your frequencies any way we wish". That was not only wrong, but scary that people that think in that manner are coming into the hobby with such an attitude. That person was more right than wrong. If one bothers to look, the small-number Parts of Title 47 C.F.R. state clearly that ANYONE can use ANY radio frequency to call for assistance if a situation is really life or death...licensed or not. True. It has to be life and death, and keep in mind that Law enforcement is happy to make that determination after the fact - and has in some cases. The thing that had people concerned in this case was the "anything" message. some snippage Radio amateur licensees are not bound JUST to what Part 97 says. The whole of Title 47 applies, even if 99+% has nothing directly to do with the amateur radio service. But, with REAL life-and-death situations, anyone can use any frequency at any time with or without any license. He (and some like him) come in to talk to the people who will be building and maintaining repeaters and infrastructure, and lay one like that on them? Let's take that IN context. Consider that the attending radio amateurs might ALSO have an 'attitude' going. Consider that lots of government infrastructure radio facilities are kept going 24/7 expressly FOR the purpose of life-and-death comms needs. Amateur radio repeaters aren't. Amateur repeaters are there primarily for the benefit of other amateurs. One of the issues that has come up in the post Katrina world is that a number of public service agencies have had their employees get Ham radio licenses. All well and good, and probably an end run around getting hobbyists to help, since the employee hams will already be on the job. Problem is, the new hams in many cases are just looking for another communication channel, and are not interested in radio as radio. Even this is okay. But.. The problem that arises is that there is an expectation the people who are interested in the hobby and its technical issues are going to keep everything up and running. Even then, many of us with that ability are willing to pitch in. But the big question is who becomes liable if that repeater fails? I think that in many ways, Ham radio emergency operations are tending to become employees who also have a ham license. And their interests are more in the line of what they do best - save lives, not put up repeaters. - 73 de Mike N3LI - |
#24
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In article ,
wrote: I don't think the FD person wanted the repeaters. He said they could use the frequencies, not the repeaters. And the frequencies are public property, after all. An amateur or club might own the repeater but they don't own the frequencies. I think there's a significant difference between a one-time emergency use (if regular comms go down), and regular use of the frequencies as a substitute for a properly-licensed/managed public service radio allocation. As I understand it, this issue came up in a big way some decades ago, after World War II. During the war, normal amateur-radio communications were all shut down (for security reasons). The whole RACES system was set up to allow specially-licensed stations (part of civil-defense organizations) to use the ham-radio frequencies for communication. Some years after that (after ham-radio communications were allowed again) some controversy arose over the use of the ham frequencies. From what I've heard, there were some public-safety organizations in small towns (police and fire) which started using the ham frequencies regularly... they got ham licenses and set themselves up as RACES stations and tried to justify their full-time tactical use of the ham band under the "RACES training and drill" rules. Hams complained. The FCC agreed with the complaints, deciding that this was not an appropriate use of the ham frequencies, and instituted new rules which strictly limit the frequency and duration of RACES training drills that any given RACES organization can undertake (basically, the equivalent of two long weekends per year). These rules still exist today, and I imagine that many of us here had to answer at least one question about this on one of our ham exams :-) The Rules in 47 CFR 97.113 specifically forbid "Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services" as well as communications for hire or in which the operator has a pecuniary interest. I think that the first of these prohibitions would probably be ruled to apply to a fire department which (as a matter of course or regular practice) makes use of the ham band or repeaters. The FCC would (I believe) certainly rule that there are other bands and radio services which are specifically intended for public-safety use, and that these are reasonably available to fire departments and etc. Real, short-term emergency use, when a regular fire-department or other radio service fails for some reason, is a different matter... but this isn't a "regular basis" of communications. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#25
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On Feb 29, 4:08 pm, (Dave Platt) wrote:
In article . com, N2EY wrote: I don't think the FD person wanted the repeaters. He said they could use the frequencies, not the repeaters. And the frequencies are public property, after all. An amateur or club might own the repeater but they don't own the frequencies. I think there's a significant difference between a one-time emergency use (if regular comms go down), and regular use of the frequencies as a substitute for a properly-licensed/managed public service radio allocation. Agreed. The discussion in question was about use of amateur frequencies in an emergency situation only. As I understand it, this issue came up in a big way some decades ago, after World War II. During the war, normal amateur-radio communications were all shut down (for security reasons). The whole RACES system was set up to allow specially-licensed stations (part of civil-defense organizations) to use the ham-radio frequencies for communication. During WW2, the system was called WERS (Wartime Emergency Radio Service). WERS used the prewar 112 and 224 MHz bands (2-1/2 and 1-1/4 meters) for local communications. Post-war, WERS evolved into RACES. Some years after that (after ham-radio communications were allowed again) some controversy arose over the use of the ham frequencies. From what I've heard, there were some public-safety organizations in small towns (police and fire) which started using the ham frequencies regularly... they got ham licenses and set themselves up as RACES stations and tried to justify their full-time tactical use of the ham band under the "RACES training and drill" rules. Sounds plausible. The difference in cost of amateur gear (which could be converted surplus or even homebrew) vs. commercial land-mobile VHF equipment was probably one reason for it. Hams complained. The FCC agreed with the complaints, deciding that this was not an appropriate use of the ham frequencies, and instituted new rules which strictly limit the frequency and duration of RACES training drills that any given RACES organization can undertake (basically, the equivalent of two long weekends per year). And the need for a declared emergency to activate RACES. Good points! 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#26
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#27
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#28
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On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:18:18 EST, "Dee Flint"
wrote: I don't think my path will be very useful to use as a tool. My second husband dragged me to a class with the comment "Let's do this together". My wife has been married before, and all three of her husbands (I am the last and longest) were hams. She never was interested in ham radio until a while back when she expressed an interest in being able to "slide into the seat" when I did emergency hospital communications. As an electrical power and instrumentation engineer of some 40 years' experience, theory was no problem for her. She started to take the three-session class offered by our radio club, using the ARRL's video tapes which in my view are insipid.. Halfway through the second tape she got up and left, declaiming "what the hell am I doing here" and strode out of the room. She never became interested again and I'm not about to press the issue. The moral of the story - good wishes have to be backed up by solid support. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
#29
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On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:20:00 EST, Klystron wrote:
It is not as simple as that. What constitutes an emergency? Gee, let's open that can of worms once again! It's a two-prong test - it has to be a situation involving immediate safety of life or property, AND no other means of communication are available. My job at the Commish' involved reviewing such cases before Violation Notices were sent out, and in the vast majority of cases, both prongs were not met. In fact, in one notable case, the radio tech of the law enforcement agency upon whose frequency the "wanna-be" came up took the transceiver that was used to the location and was able to bring up several repeaters with "9-1-1" autopatch capability. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
#30
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On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:12:10 EST, Bruce in alaska
wrote: The Sheriff took offense to that intrusion, and there was a GIANT BrewHAHA, that as I recall, Phil was involved in. The ham was a "wanna-be sheriff" and the department had had quite enough of his antics. That's the situation that I referred to in my earlier message this evening. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
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