Why not just do it right to start with? My gas appliances (furnace, stove,
hot water) are fueled with propane in an underground tank. Yes, propane is
expensive. When I moved to this house my first major purchase was a 10kw
Guardian standby generator hooked to the propane tank. Within 5 days after
the thing was installed, the power went out.... The generator has been a
Godsend out here.

Howard N7SO
upstate NY

Howard Lester wrote:
Why not just do it right to start with? My gas appliances (furnace, stove,
hot water) are fueled with propane in an underground tank. Yes, propane is
expensive. When I moved to this house my first major purchase was a 10kw
Guardian standby generator hooked to the propane tank. Within 5 days after
the thing was installed, the power went out.... The generator has been a
Godsend out here.

You should be able to run heating and a diesel generator from the same tank
if you choose a boiler which runs on diesel grade rather than kerosene..

g4jci

On 11/11/2011 20 04, Phil Kane wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:12:31 EST, Jeffrey
wrote:

Both propane, gasoline and diesel require electrical service
to run the pumps. And tanks that need to be refilled.

And good luck getting a permit for any decent-sized tank for those
fuels in any residential area. I'm talking about 96-hour capacity,
not a five-gallon Jerry can.

If one is lucky enough to live in an area which is served by natural
gas, a generator powered by that fuel would be an economical alternative
without the necessity of have a fuel dump as part of the yard.

The outfit found at the url below can show you how to inexpensively
convert a gasoline generator to natural gas or, if you aren't in an area
where that fuel is available, to propane.

http://www.propane-generators.com/

73,

Dave Heil K8MN

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:51:26 EST, Dave Heil
wrote:

If one is lucky enough to live in an area which is served by natural
gas, a generator powered by that fuel would be an economical alternative
without the necessity of have a fuel dump as part of the yard.

Not only that, natural gas is lighter-than-air so if there is a leak,
there's less of a problem than LPG which is heavier than air and would
accumulate until it finds a source of ignition and blooie! A friend
of mine learned that the hard way when a leaky BBQ bottle caused a
fire that burned down half his house including a library of special
books and writings that he had inherited from his scholar father.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 23:44 -0500, wrote:
Howard Lester wrote:
Why not just do it right to start with? My gas appliances (furnace, sto
ve,
hot water) are fueled with propane in an underground tank. Yes, propane
is
expensive. When I moved to this house my first major purchase was a 10k
w
Guardian standby generator hooked to the propane tank. Within 5 days af
ter
the thing was installed, the power went out.... The generator has been
a
Godsend out here.

You should be able to run heating and a diesel generator from the same ta
nk
if you choose a boiler which runs on diesel grade rather than kerosene..

Since my furnace and hot water heater both use natural gas, I'm
interested in using *that* to fuel a generator, but (as I wrote before),
I'm looking for cost figures that will help me to make an informed
decision about the most cost-effective fuel.

This is, of course, a complicated calculation: natural gas is more
convenient, but limits the genset to one location. Diesel is (so I've
heard) less expensive than gas, but the genset will cost more
initially.

If you are reading this, and *YOU* have bought or used any of the
options I've listed, please make your opinion known.

Tnx es 73,

Bill W1AC

On 11/12/2011 7:23 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
Since my furnace and hot water heater both use natural gas, I'm
interested in using*that* to fuel a generator, but (as I wrote before),
I'm looking for cost figures that will help me to make an informed
decision about the most cost-effective fuel.

This is, of course, a complicated calculation: natural gas is more
convenient, but limits the genset to one location. Diesel is (so I've
heard) less expensive than gas, but the genset will cost more
initially.

If you are reading this, and*YOU* have bought or used any of the
options I've listed, please make your opinion known.

I converted a 1967 Dodge 1/2 ton pick up truck with a slant
6 cylinder engine to run dual fuel. Propane and Gasoline. It
came in quite handy while dealing with the manufactured gas
crisis. "No gasoline? No problem, I'll fill it with propane."

I currently own a Honda 4500 watt genset. That's my "portable".
I'll keep it running on gasoline as designed. It runs for
about 4 hours with a full tank and an 80% load. For the record,
I run premium grade gasoline and add Stabil to it.

The Empire 12 KW genset with the Wisconsin VF4D engine runs on
gas, but I've decided to convert it to natural gas as the
standby set for the house. (Looks like the conversion setup for
that will cost $277.) But it will run continuously and I don't
have to deal with fuel storage.

At my previous location, fuel storage was an issue, I had to
maintain about 10 each 5 gallon cans. Which included dumping
them into the car periodically and refilling them with fresh
gasoline.

My question would be "In the event of a widespread failure,
what is going to go away first? Gasoline supplies, piped
natural gas or trucked Propane." And decide which fuel to
use based on that.

For what it's worth, the AT&T sites I used to go to (Which
were sold to American Tower) used diesel generator sets.

And one other tidbit. I refuse to use Arco Gasoline. It tends
to dissolve rubber bits and gaskets in generator engines.

Jeff-1.0
wa6fwi

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

"Bill Horne" wrote

This is, of course, a complicated calculation: natural gas is more
convenient, but limits the genset to one location. Diesel is (so I've
heard) less expensive than gas, but the genset will cost more
initially.

If you are reading this, and *YOU* have bought or used any of the
options I've listed, please make your opinion known.

Bill, in my case I am forced to use propane because there are no natural-gas
lines where I live. Supposedly natural gas is far cheaper, but as Jeff said,
its supply to your house can be cut off in a disaster. For the record, my
10kw Guardian generator and transfer box cost $4.1K installed. This was done
2 years ago. It connects to the line of the existing 500 gallon underground
propane tank. When the electricity goes out, the generator comes on
automatically in about 20 seconds. No flashlights are required, and you
don't have to get out of a warm bed to find any switches or matches.

Howard N7SO

On 11/11/2011 10:12 AM, Jeffrey Angus wrote:

The biggest problem is the exhaust. If you can get a larger
muffler in addition to the one that it comes with, that's a
step in the right direction. The next problem is mechanical
noise. Most open frame generators sound like a blender full
of rocks.


With the Honda "I" series generators (Like the ef3000i) you are correct
that the largest noise is exhaust.

With many "Contractor" type generators, like the 300 dollar 3500 watt
job down at pep boys, it's mechanical noise plus exhaust.

I saw a demo of a Yahama EU-2400i one day (This is a true 2,000 watt
inverter generator 2000 continous and 2400 peak) This was at a rally so
there was rather a lot of crowd noise to deal with but.

Though I could hear the thing at idle... the salesman could not (The
1200-i I could not hear at idle) as you might safely assume, Many Ham
radio operators are used to "listening through noise" add to that 25
years on the police dispatch desk.

At half load we did not have to raise our voices

At full load, With one foot literally on top of the generator, it got
loud enough that we had to speak up.

Think about this "noise" level.. And recall we were close enough to
FEEL the exhaust.. I've not done this kind of test with the HONDA but
the spec sheet puts them ONE DB louder.... Just one.


--
Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business.

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On 11/11/2011 3:04 PM, Phil Kane wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:12:31 EST, Jeffrey
wrote:

Both propane, gasoline and diesel require electrical service
to run the pumps. And tanks that need to be refilled.

And good luck getting a permit for any decent-sized tank for those
fuels in any residential area. I'm talking about 96-hour capacity,
not a five-gallon Jerry can.

My class A holds 70 gallons of gasoline, Some Diesel Pushers hold 2 or 3
hundred gallons. In both cases a 5,000 watt generator burns less than 1
per hour at normal loads.

Plus, unless the roads are blocked, if you have smaller containers (I
don't recommend jerry cans but Eagle Gas cans are good) you can travel
to where the pumps pump.. The first time I went out for a Generator and
fuel that was only about a one hour drive at freeway speeds (60 miles)
That was blackout 2003 as I recall.

I would love to get that generator back too.. It grew legs amd walked
off on me. If anyone sees a GENRAC 1000 (1KW fully enclosed
traditional generator,, by the way this one compares both in weight,
size, fuel consumption and sound with the Honda EF-2000i) with my call
on it.... Let me (And the Redford Michigan Police) know please.

--
Nothing adds Excitement like something that is none of your business.

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Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4614 - Release Date: 11/13/11

On 11/14/2011 1:27 AM, John Davis wrote:

I saw a demo of a Yahama EU-2400i one day (This is a true 2,000 watt
inverter generator 2000 continous and 2400 peak) This was at a rally so
there was rather a lot of crowd noise to deal with but.

Though I could hear the thing at idle... the salesman could not (The
1200-i I could not hear at idle) as you might safely assume, Many Ham
radio operators are used to "listening through noise" add to that 25
years on the police dispatch desk.

At half load we did not have to raise our voices

At full load, With one foot literally on top of the generator, it got
loud enough that we had to speak up.

Think about this "noise" level.. And recall we were close enough to FEEL
the exhaust.. I've not done this kind of test with the HONDA but the
spec sheet puts them ONE DB louder.... Just one.

Please pass along any URL's that show side-by-side comparisons of the
sound output of the various generators in the "5KW" class. I'd also like
to see a chart that compares sound levels with common sources: "quiet as
a church mouse" up to "Chain saw", and four or five steps in between.

For some reason, I get the impression that generators are either super
quiet or unbelievably noisy, with no middle ground. I'd like to see if
my perceptions match reality.

TIA.

Bill, W1AC

--
Bill Horne
(Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly)