On 11/15/2011 10:20 PM, Bill Horne wrote:
Please pass along any URL's that show side-by-side comparisons of the
sound output of the various generators in the "5KW" class. I'd also like
to see a chart that compares sound levels with common sources: "quiet as
a church mouse" up to "Chain saw", and four or five steps in between.

For some reason, I get the impression that generators are either super
quiet or unbelievably noisy, with no middle ground. I'd like to see if
my perceptions match reality.

TIA.

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/Generators/

Check out the tools and resources sidebar.

Also, the infamous sales brochure. But still a good deal
of comparison information.

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/pdf/Brochures/generator_brochure.pdf

No, I don't work for Honda. Yes, I'm quite pleased with the
Honda stuff I own.

Jeff-1.0
wa6fwi

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

"Bill Horne" wrote in message
news:1321147426.4755.14.camel@Thinkpad...
This is, of course, a complicated calculation: natural gas is more
convenient, but limits the genset to one location. Diesel is (so I've
heard) less expensive than gas, but the genset will cost more
initially.

If you are reading this, and *YOU* have bought or used any of the
options I've listed, please make your opinion known.

You really don't want to go the diesel route unless you are prepared for a
significant amount of maintenance (both of the genset and the fuel). Stored
diesel fuel grows all sorts of stuff that will quickly plug fuel filters.
In cold weather starting is difficult unless you use auxiliary heaters to
keep the generator warm.

I've dealt with backup power for radio and television stations for forty
five years and standby diesel will absolutely not be reliable, unless you
maintain a rigid maintenance program and exercise the plant religiously.

For a home size plant, I opted for propane, since that is the only heating
fuel available to me, and reasonable run time comes from a 500 gallon
propane tank that would be in place in any event. No fuel stability issues,
reasonable maintenance required, and once I move up to a large enough unit
to deal with a 1-1/2 HP well pump, several pumps for the septic system,
furnace, the incremental cost to go to a 20KW units was very small.

I'm in the Mother Lode part of the Sierra Foothills, and, surprisingly, most
of our long outages come in the summer, when wildland fires cause
transmission shutdowns. The 20 KW unit manages the air conditioning as well
since the compressor is a low starting current scroll type.

Bill
KB0RF

In news:1321147426.4755.14.camel@Thinkpad Bill Horne
wrote:

Diesel is (so I've heard) less expensive than gas,

Not around here, it's not.

At the moment, regular unleaded gas is going for about $3.25/gal, while
diesel is about $4.00/gal.

The few times I've actually looked at the price of diesel, it's always
been more expensive than gasoline.

--
Bert Hyman W0RSB St. Paul, MN

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In Bert writes:

In news:1321147426.4755.14.camel@Thinkpad Bill Horne
wrote:

Diesel is (so I've heard) less expensive than gas,

Not around here, it's not.

At the moment, regular unleaded gas is going for about $3.25/gal, while
diesel is about $4.00/gal.

The few times I've actually looked at the price of diesel, it's always
been more expensive than gasoline.

--
Bert Hyman W0RSB St. Paul, MN

True, but what's important to look at is the overall cost relative to
the energy produced.

Diesel fuel has more energy per gallon than gasoline (145,000 BTU's
vs. 125,000):

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel3.htm

Diesel engines, which use the Carnot cycle, are more efficient,
recovering about 45% of the energy from diesel fuel, versus 30% of the
energy for a gasoline engine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine

So the increased energy content and the the increased energy efficiency
means that diesel engines will have an energy advantage over a gasoline
engine of about 1.75 to 1 per gallon of fuel. This more than
compensates for the greater cost ratio of about 1.25 to 1. Diesel
engines may have other drawbacks that were pointed out in this thread
(maintenance, heating, noise, pollution), but energy efficiency and cost
of fuel isn't one of them. That's why it's used in transportation that
requires a lot of energy and fuel (railroads, long-haul trucking,
container ships, etc.).

Conversely, E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) has less energy content:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

and engines that are designed to burn both gasoline and E85 are not
optimally efficient to burn E85 (requires higher compression).
Therefore, though E85 is much cheaper per gallon, it is only worthwhile
to use when the "price spread" is at least 15% or more. Seems that
there's a web site that surveys prices by region, and identifies when
and where this price spread makes it cost-advantaged to use E85
vs. gasoline:

http://www.e85prices.com/

Locally, this usually happens when the price of gasoline goes much over
$4/gallon.

- --
73, Paul W. Schleck, K3FU

http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/
Finger for PGP Public Key

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (SunOS)

iD8DBQFOxnUr6Pj0az779o4RAmj/AJ0bXITua/bdu98PqceXzoOlcCNdJwCeLeM0
gXzWUqbRYTXAjJlyy1ONKMQ=
=ymYN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 11/16/2011 04 20, Bill Horne wrote:

Please pass along any URL's that show side-by-side comparisons of the
sound output of the various generators in the "5KW" class. I'd also like
to see a chart that compares sound levels with common sources: "quiet as
a church mouse" up to "Chain saw", and four or five steps in between.

For some reason, I get the impression that generators are either super
quiet or unbelievably noisy, with no middle ground. I'd like to see if
my perceptions match reality.

Here's my unscientific response:

We've used N8NN's little 1 KW Honda for a number of Field Day
operations. At 100 feet away, it is difficult to hear at a half load.

The 3 KW generator I used to own had a Briggs and Stratton engine. It
was very, very loud.

My current generator is a 4 KW Craftsman/Generac. It is less than half
as loud as the Briggs.

73,

Dave Heil K8MN

On 11/18/2011 1:58 PM, Paul W. Schleck wrote:

True, but what's important to look at is the overall cost relative to
the energy produced. [snip]

So the increased energy content and the the increased energy efficiency
means that diesel engines will have an energy advantage over a gasoline
engine of about 1.75 to 1 per gallon of fuel. This more than
compensates for the greater cost ratio of about 1.25 to 1.

Paul,

Thanks for filling in the background on this. I'm reminded of the time
my sister rented a diesel-powered truck, and told me that she did it
because, although diesel was slightly higher than gas at the pump, the
truck would get over thirty miles per gallon.

Of course, the relative efficiency of the fuels is an important factor,
but I'm in need of advice from those who have operated BOTH gas and
diesel generators, because I need to know what the other costs a

1. Purchase price
2. Maintenance expenses
3. Fuel storage
4. Reliability

So, if you've owned or operated /both/ diesel and gas generators, please
chime in. Thanks!

Bill, W1AC

P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list)
about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like
restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about
other hams who have actually done it.


--
Bill Horne
(Remove QRM from my address to write to me directly)

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne
wrote:

P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list)
about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like
restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about
other hams who have actually done it.

Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like
French-fries!
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

In Phil Kane
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne
wrote:

P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my
list) about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like
restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND
about other hams who have actually done it.

Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like
French-fries!

Since this is for off-road use, investigate sources of diesel intended
for farm or other non-highway uses, which will not have the Federal tax
applied.

--
Bert Hyman W0RSB St. Paul, MN

On Sun, 2011-11-20 at 15:34 -0500, Phil Kane wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne
wrote:

P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my list)

about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like
restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND about

other hams who have actually done it.

Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like
French-fries!

Yes, but can a /generator/ run it? What are the upsides and downsides?

Bill
P.S. Jay Leno remarked that even though Willy Nelson converted his tour
bus to biodiesel, police sniffer dogs were still chasing it, so it
probably didn't smell like French fries.

(Filter QRM to email me directly)

On Sun, 2011-11-20 at 16:01 -0500, Bert wrote:
In Phil Kane
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:26:24 EST, Bill Horne
wrote:

P.S. I'm also curious (although, frankly, it's not that high on my
list) about whether a diesel engine could run alternative fuels like

restaurant grease or the other "green" substitutes for diesel AND
about other hams who have actually done it.

Biodiesel - all the buses here run that. Exhaust smells like
French-fries!

Since this is for off-road use, investigate sources of diesel intended
for farm or other non-highway uses, which will not have the Federal tax
applied.

Please pardon my ignorance, but I always thought that #2 fuel oil /is/
diesel fuel without the road tax. Am I wrong?

73,

Bill, W1AC

(Filter QRM to email me directly)