Brian wrote:
Alun Palmer wrote in message . ..

Dave Heil wrote in
:


Alun Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:



You must be related to our friend Vipul! At least you think
alike.

- Mike KB3EIA -



Well, he's clearly Indian,

That isn't clear at all.


and I'm British, so it wouldn't surprise me if we share some views in
common and don't buy into the received wisdom of the US of A.

That wouldn't surprise me either but both of you seem to prefer feeding
at the American trough.

Dave K8MN


In this economy it's less of a trough and more of a small dish


There are alternatives. Just the other day my neighbor commented that
he was considering a move to Pakistan or India for the opportunity to
build a better life for himself and his family. ;^)

If he's a programmer, he may have to! Everyone (and I do mean everyone)
seems to be shipping all their programming to India. I got a new
computer a few days ago and needed to call tech service. Guess where it
was..... I did have a bit of trouble understanding the accents, but the
help *was* good.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Phil Kane wrote:
On 16 Jul 2003 03:06:13 GMT, Alun Palmer wrote:


Well, here's an idea. Should you find later that you need to learn about
something, have you ever heard of books? I find them very useful.


How long does one have to read the book to learn how to play the
piano?


Why should one be forced to learn to play the piano if what one REALLY
wants to do is to play one or more OTHER instruments?

Would there be ANY sense in a rule that said "You can't play any other
instrument, no matter how good you might be at it, unless you first
demonstrate
that you can play the piano proficiently." ???

I don't think so ...

Carl - wk3c

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Alun Palmer wrote:
"Phil Kane" wrote in
.net:


On 16 Jul 2003 14:28:18 GMT, Alun Palmer wrote:


I had to read it a few times. I think the reason for poor performance
in UK engineering has nothing to do with the quality of UK engineers
and everything to do with the culture of UK companies, in which the
engineers are not in charge, but instead the accountants are.

If you don't think that that is the case "over here" too, you have
not been paying attention to how Corporate America is being run.


And this is not
because we don't study business subjects (we do), or because we don't
do English or History or 'Western Civilisation' in college (the
accountants don't either).

In other words, your "professional education" is basically trade
school programs.



So what would you call a degree in a non-vocational subject?


What a waste.


As I understand it (and I freely admit there are gaps in my knowledge
of your system), you can get a 4-year degree over here with 120 (?)
semester- hours of credit, and maybe only half of it has to be in
your major (?). When I sat down and tried to calculate it (from old
timetables, since there are no hours on my transcript, only grades)
my 3-year UK degree included about 150 semester-hours of classroom
time, of which about 120 semester hours was in engineering subjects,
the rest being things like economics, finance, mathematics, etc.

IIRC my BEE degree was more like 180 hours (4 years of 20-credit
semesters plus one summer of Surveying -- did you take that by any
chance? It came in real handy when I built my first house and when
I studied Real Estate Law in law school and when I discuss or plot
radio path and contour calculations or directional antenna patterns
with clients or even map-reading and "orienteering" with
non-technical hiking friends and relatives.

No chemistry in an engineering program? This is not the same as a
Literature or Cultural Humasnitiers course. This is basic science.

In an EE program we took a year of chemistry (class and lab), two
years of physics, one year of advanced math, and assorted courses in
non-EE engineering subjects such as thermodynamics, mechanics of
materials, atomic physics, and surveying, plus our rigorous EE power
and electronics courses.

That was 50 years ago. Now they require a lot more of "non-EE"
stuff such as environmental engineering and medical engineering
The school has acquired a reputation for application research in
those fields.

Otherwise one is not a rell-educated engineer - one is a geek with a
degree.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane


So what's so wrong eith being a geek?

Well, nothing, I guess. Too bad tho' - there is a much bigger
world
out there.



Sure, but anyone can read up on any subject they like. Nothing stops me
from pursuing whatever interests I want, regardless of not having done
western civilisation in college, or whatever.

(Brian) wrote in
m:

Alun Palmer wrote in message
. ..
Dave Heil wrote in
:

Alun Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

You must be related to our friend Vipul! At least you think
alike.

- Mike KB3EIA -



Well, he's clearly Indian,

That isn't clear at all.

and I'm British, so it wouldn't surprise me if we share some views
in common and don't buy into the received wisdom of the US of A.

That wouldn't surprise me either but both of you seem to prefer
feeding at the American trough.

Dave K8MN


In this economy it's less of a trough and more of a small dish

There are alternatives. Just the other day my neighbor commented that
he was considering a move to Pakistan or India for the opportunity to
build a better life for himself and his family. ;^)


In my field I keep seeing ads for jobs in Japan

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Brian wrote:
Alun Palmer wrote in message
. ..

Dave Heil wrote in
:


Alun Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:



You must be related to our friend Vipul! At least you think
alike.

- Mike KB3EIA -



Well, he's clearly Indian,

That isn't clear at all.


and I'm British, so it wouldn't surprise me if we share some views
in common and don't buy into the received wisdom of the US of A.

That wouldn't surprise me either but both of you seem to prefer
feeding at the American trough.

Dave K8MN


In this economy it's less of a trough and more of a small dish


There are alternatives. Just the other day my neighbor commented that
he was considering a move to Pakistan or India for the opportunity to
build a better life for himself and his family. ;^)

If he's a programmer, he may have to! Everyone (and I do mean
everyone)
seems to be shipping all their programming to India. I got a new
computer a few days ago and needed to call tech service. Guess where it
was..... I did have a bit of trouble understanding the accents, but the
help *was* good.

- Mike KB3EIA -



You might even work more DX as a VU2

Alun Palmer wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in
:

Alun Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

You must be related to our friend Vipul! At least you think
alike.

- Mike KB3EIA -



Well, he's clearly Indian,

That isn't clear at all.

and I'm British, so it wouldn't surprise me if we share some views in
common and don't buy into the received wisdom of the US of A.

That wouldn't surprise me either but both of you seem to prefer feeding
at the American trough.

In this economy it's less of a trough and more of a small dish

You must prefer it to the even smaller dish in your home country.
You've got gripes about the "received wisdom of the US of A" but both
of you stick around to reap the benefits of life here.

Enjoy your sniping. It's on us.

Dave K8MN

Dave K8MN

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...
Phil Kane wrote:
On 16 Jul 2003 03:06:13 GMT, Alun Palmer wrote:


Well, here's an idea. Should you find later that you need to learn
about
something, have you ever heard of books? I find them very useful.


How long does one have to read the book to learn how to play the
piano?


Why should one be forced to learn to play the piano if what one REALLY
wants to do is to play one or more OTHER instruments?

Would there be ANY sense in a rule that said "You can't play any other
instrument, no matter how good you might be at it, unless you first
demonstrate
that you can play the piano proficiently." ???

I don't think so ...

Carl - wk3c


You have to learn to play the piano to get a degree in music whether you
plan to be a teacher or performer on some other instrument. Even if you
will never have a need to play the piano, you still must learn it to get
that music degree.

However they don't have to become proficient on the piano just like hams
don't have to become proficient at Morse. In either case, they only have to
learn the basics.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Brian wrote:

Dick Carroll wrote in message ...
Brian wrote:

To be honest, I don't think there is any answer that will satisfy you.

Brian

At least not a truthful one.

Well then, that's it. Jim isn't satisfied with truthful answers. No
wonder he keeps asking.

You haven't even provided truthful responses now. You've been asked.
You have declined. You've provided reasons such as, "The questions are
just too hard". Jim and I have continued to ask because you've
continued to be evasive.

Dave K8MN

N2EY wrote:

Complex compared to what? More complex than a PC? Or was there too
much talk and too little action?

Maybe it was a solution in search of a problem.

Looks like another job for Brute Force Cybernetics, the company which
creates a need, then fills it.

Dave K8MN

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message ...
Phil Kane wrote:
On 16 Jul 2003 03:06:13 GMT, Alun Palmer wrote:

Well, here's an idea. Should you find later that you need to learn about
something, have you ever heard of books? I find them very useful.

How long does one have to read the book to learn how to play the
piano?

Why should one be forced to learn to play the piano if what one REALLY
wants to do is to play one or more OTHER instruments?

Nobody is "forced". Those who want a music degree from a particular
institution may have piano as a requirement for the degree, but they
are not "forced" to learn it unless they are also "forced" to attend
the institution and "forced" to get the degree. The requirements are
set by those who run the institutions, who probably know more about
music than the students.

OTOH, millions of young children today are "forced" to learn how to do
basic arithmetic even though inexpensive calculators have been around
for decades. Even though most professional/commercial/military
arithemtic is done by computers and calculators far faster and with
less error than any human.

Would there be ANY sense in a rule that said "You can't play any other
instrument, no matter how good you might be at it, unless you first
demonstrate that you can play the piano proficiently." ???

All depends on who defines "proficiently". The amateur radio code test
we have now is roughly equivalent to being able to pound out a few
bars of "Chopsticks" with two fingers on the piano. Even the old code
tests didn't get much beyond the "Heart and Soul" level, compared to
what was considered proficient by knowledgeable folks.

Would you have a problem with a "Chopsticks" requirement? Because
that's about what we have now.

For comparison, consider the old US Navy Radioman "A" level test, as
given in 1958. Required the copy of 5 symbol coded groups at 24 wpm.
On a standard Navy mill (manual typewriter). For a solid hour, with no
more than 3 errors.

I don't think so ...

Do you play any musical instruments?

--

But hey, we're missing the point here. Why should any musical
performance skill be needed to get a music degree, unless a person
wants to be a performer? This is the 21st century, and we've got
synthesizers out the wazoo that cost far less than, say, a Martin
guitar or a Steinway piano. And which are much easier to learn how to
use. Why focus so much time and effort on learning a "manual motor
skill" to play one instrument - any instrument - when there are
machines which will do the job with much less effort and error-free?

This isn't far-fetched. The new contract for musicians who play on
Broadway has reduced the size of the orchestra required for a Broadway
musical performance, and allows for the use of recorded and
synthesized music. (Musicians are a major cost item in Broadway stage
prodcutions - or so the producers tell us). Why not go one better and
simply use recorded/synthesized music in all long-running shows? The
movies have done it for years, although once they used live music.
Heck, some folks are even beginning to use synthesized voices rather
than singers, as was done in some of the music for the 1997
blockbuster "Titanic". (Celine Dion is a real human, however).

Don't shoot me, I'm not the piano player.

73 de Jim, N2EY