Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law, the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more. Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it. I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.
I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around. There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.

"JJ" wrote:

(snip) I have heard five year olds use words that
I would never dared to speak in front of an adult
when I was a youngster. (snip)


I've heard five year olds use words that I, as an adult, would not say in
front of other adults today. I'm certainly not a prude, but I just don't see
how vulgar language improves communications or one's impression of another.


I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by
a teacher at school no less, would like to see
one try that now), for saying much less.


My mother preferred dishwashing liquid (claimed it was safer than some
hand or body soaps). Once was enough for me, but my brother went on a foul
language spree one summer and "got the treatment" probably five or six
times. My sister got it when she was about sixteen or seventeen.


(snip) It isn't uncommon for me to step into an
elevator with my wife and hear others using very
vulgar language with no regards to who is
listening and may be offended by such language.
(snip)


There was a guy and his wife (girlfriend or whatever) in line behind us at
Office Max the other day. I've never heard so much foul language in such a
short amount of time (seemed like every second or third word out of his
mouth). And I'm talking nasty stuff - women's body parts, his wife's body
parts, body parts in general, negative words for men and women, and so on. I
finally asked him to keep his voice down. When that didn't work, I asked him
not to use such language. When I finally got the register, he started it
again. In anger (and since there was nobody else in line), I had the casher
go with me to search for printer ink behind another counter and made sure we
had a nice little conversation. We even talked about his language. When he
finally went to another line, we returned to the register to complete my
purchase. Less than ten seconds later, the guy rushed towards the register
to get behind us again. However, the casher saw him coming and put the
register closed sign up before he got there. As he walked away, and I was
picking up my bag to leave, she smiled real big and told us to have a nice
day. This was one of the few times I truly believed a casher meant those
words when said.


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)


I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to dress
up for a ham fest.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"JJ" wrote in message
...
Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law,
the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more.


I think we all care, JJ, it's just that we've lost our ability to "tolerate"
because it's become a very jealous world.


Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it. I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.
I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around.


JJ, leaving the children aside because I agree with you on that one...but,
let me assure that in the dairy land where I grew up--we women on the farms
were quite capable of being just as foul-mouthed as any man. Nope, we
didn't do it in front of the men--Heaven forbid they realize we weren't the
demure, dainty pieces they thought we were, but we did it.

And, in my opinion, words don't hurt anyone. It's actions that hurt. I
don't care to hear a little kid running around cursing; I don't even care to
hear it from a man or me. But I also believe that it is our *concept* of it
being so terrible that makes it so. I really mean that. It is the
expression being felt or communicated through a word that is the "bad"
thing. If I say, "I HATE YOU" in the same tone of voice as "I LOVE YOU" you
are going to perceive that you are getting a double message the you are
going to at least wonder if there is some negative emotion being expressed
as I am saying "I LOVE YOU." George Carlin's skit on words had precisely
that lesson in it. It isn't the word--it's the emotion behind it.


There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.


I agree. But, I hope you'll understand that there's a fine line between
having respect for others, and others then being able to "dictate" how I
should behave. For instance, I totally respect anyone's opinion that
cursing in public is offensive to them. So, I generally don't curse in
public. Out loud anyway :o But, when I am in my house, or in my "corner of
the world with friends of like mind," then I'm going to curse away if I'm so
inclined. Would you dictate that I am rolled up into your opinion with the
others you mention above--or am I being disrespectful to you for cursing at
any time?


Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.


Oh, now see. There's where you and I would definitely disagree. I really
don't care how someone is dressed--although I've found myself at times
having to get over an initial reaction, if you know what I mean. If I walk
into a business office and see someone with a t-shirt and jeans on--I am
initially taken off guard. But, I quickly get *myself* over that and
continue with whatever I walked in for. I hate, absolutely hate that I work
in a corporate environment with dark suits around me all day...gosh I hate
that. In other words, I've seen people in very sloppy dress with wonderful
mannerisms and respect for others...and I've seen some people in very fancy
and "respectful" garb that are completely without feelings for anything or
anyone around them.

By the way...you wouldn't be describing mostly youth, above, would you?

Kim W5TIT

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"JJ" wrote:

(snip) I have heard five year olds use words that
I would never dared to speak in front of an adult
when I was a youngster. (snip)

I've heard five year olds use words that I, as an adult, would not say
in
front of other adults today. I'm certainly not a prude, but I just don't
see
how vulgar language improves communications or one's impression of
another.

I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by
a teacher at school no less, would like to see
one try that now), for saying much less.

My mother preferred dishwashing liquid (claimed it was safer than some
hand or body soaps). Once was enough for me, but my brother went on a foul
language spree one summer and "got the treatment" probably five or six
times. My sister got it when she was about sixteen or seventeen.

(snip) It isn't uncommon for me to step into an
elevator with my wife and hear others using very
vulgar language with no regards to who is
listening and may be offended by such language.
(snip)

There was a guy and his wife (girlfriend or whatever) in line behind us
at
Office Max the other day. I've never heard so much foul language in such a
short amount of time (seemed like every second or third word out of his
mouth). And I'm talking nasty stuff - women's body parts, his wife's body
parts, body parts in general, negative words for men and women, and so on.
I
finally asked him to keep his voice down. When that didn't work, I asked
him
not to use such language. When I finally got the register, he started it
again. In anger (and since there was nobody else in line), I had the
casher
go with me to search for printer ink behind another counter and made sure
we
had a nice little conversation. We even talked about his language. When he
finally went to another line, we returned to the register to complete my
purchase. Less than ten seconds later, the guy rushed towards the register
to get behind us again. However, the casher saw him coming and put the
register closed sign up before he got there. As he walked away, and I was
picking up my bag to leave, she smiled real big and told us to have a nice
day. This was one of the few times I truly believed a casher meant those
words when said.


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)


I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to
dress
up for a ham fest.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/


I would have asked to visit with the Shift Manager and would have explained
the situation to him/her and asked what the store intended to do about it.
*If* the conversation had been loud enough for the clerk to make a decision
on your complaint, then it was loud enough for her to witness to the Shift
Manager. What would I expect as a consumer? I would expect the store to
ask the people to leave if they persist in offensive behavior in public.
There are laws against it. We probably have to take some form of personal
responsibility--and we may be too stupid or lazy to do so, I don't know--for
those laws to work but, failing that, my action would have been to place my
products down on the counter and walk out of the store.

*That* is what Jim means by shopping with our wallets. On a small, teeny,
tiny scale, I just had a meeting with that company's BoD. And, more people
need to start having that meeting with the BoD. You call it "local" or
whatever. But that BoD makes investment decisions for its shareholders.
And, whether I am a shareholder or not, if me, and you, and him, and her,
and them, and those people over there, and all of us combined start
affecting the bottom dollar of a company's stock price--then we've also have
a very effective meeting with the BoD.

And, the greatest thing is, you could choose to leave without ever saying a
word to anyone--either way you choose to act; *as long as you leave without
purchase* has the same affect.

Kim W5TIT

Dwight Stewart wrote:


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)



I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to dress
up for a ham fest.


Casual is OK, but there is a differenc between casual and sloppy.
Clothes that have obviously been worn for several days and smelly are
sloppy. I have seen a lot of that at ham fest. Seems that to some hams,
the acquiring of a license means they now only have to take a bath once
a month or less.

"JJ" wrote in message
...
Dwight Stewart wrote:


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)



I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other
casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places).
Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I
would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to
dress
up for a ham fest.


Casual is OK, but there is a differenc between casual and sloppy.
Clothes that have obviously been worn for several days and smelly are
sloppy. I have seen a lot of that at ham fest. Seems that to some hams,
the acquiring of a license means they now only have to take a bath once
a month or less.


snicker I don't think "hams" have cornered the market on stinking...

Kim W5TIT

In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:

Geee..... didn't Carlin cover this??? (i.e. George Carlin?)

His "seven words" bit is where the list originated. No such list existed in the
FCC rules.

Anyone know of this...my thoughts are on what will happen in amateur
radio now.

Nothing, I hope.

The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Nope. FCC has completely different rules for different services. The
fact that somebody gets away with something in the broadcast services
doesn't mean it's OK in the ARS.

Generally the terminology states soemething to the effect of "good amateur
practice." My ONLY PROBLEM with that is WHO gets to decide what the
benchmark is for good amateur practice...... If the FCC, who issues our
licenses are not going to do it, then who?

Here's one guide:

http://members.aol.com/berrymanp/alyrics/fword.html


As for specific words??? Dunno, is there a list?? :) Who makes the list
then? Are other things other than the known "7 dirty words" included? If
someone is of say, for instance a different faith than you, do you get to
determine anything they say religiously is offensive and should be banned
speech? I am sure there are other examples one could come up with......

Common sense and good taste used to be the guide. But I guess such concepts are
old-fashioned nowadays, from what some folks tell me when I oppose the use of
such language on the air and in newsgropups.....

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) I would have asked to visit with the Shift
Manager and would have explained the situation
to him/her and asked what the store intended to
do about it. *If* the conversation had been loud
enough for the clerk to make a decision on your
complaint, then it was loud enough for her to
witness to the Shift Manager. What would I
expect as a consumer? I would expect the store
to ask the people to leave if they persist in
offensive behavior in public. (snip)


With the possibility of lawsuits, I doubt many stores would be that overt
today. Many of the offensive language laws of the past have been struck down
as unconstitutional (enough that few stores would want to take much of a
chance pushing the issue)


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"JJ" wrote:

Casual is OK, but there is a differenc between
casual and sloppy. Clothes that have obviously
been worn for several days and smelly are
sloppy. I have seen a lot of that at ham fest.
Seems that to some hams, the acquiring of a
license means they now only have to take a
bath once a month or less.


I've seen it too, JJ. But, since it's pretty much a personal choice, there
isn't much that can be done except to set a higher standard for ourselves.
In our case (my wife and I), that's easy. We lived in Europe for ten years,
in a country where people tend to dress relatively well in public and keep
their homes and neighborhoods clean. We picked up that habit and now find it
uncomfortable to do anything less. When we first returned, my relatives
constantly complained we were overdressed. That surprised us since we were
wearing the cloths we wore daily in Germany (our nice cloths were still
packed). Many of our friends and family still think we're a little eccentric
(the actual word two of them used) for keeping our home so clean. We've
since started wearing more casual cloths, and are not so rigid on the house
cleaning, but not anywhere near what I see around us. My wife's brother
visited last summer and commented that our house looked like a museum. While
the house was cleaned for the visit, I certainly wouldn't go that far when
describing it.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote in message
...

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law,
the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

As long as you keep the froot-loops all
in one place then I see no problem.
For an example, the historically amusing ham
frequency of 14.313 MHz. is becoming alive again
with the sound of screwballs (..as opposed to the
sound of music) on the weekends like clockwork again.
You know it's gonna be there like Monday Night Football.
I have observed for 20+ yrs that as long as the screwballs, bootleggers
and kooks among our ranks KNOW where they
can go for their weekend dose of juvenile
amusement, they will gravitate to the same
and leave the rest of us *alone*. It's like the
red light district in town. Every medium city needs
one where the dregs of society can go to fulfill
their needs and perverse desires. 14.313 and one
or two freqs on 75 Meters do just that and act
as a steam poppet valve for the rest of the hobby.
Logical, ain't it?