"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) I would have asked to visit with the Shift
Manager and would have explained the situation
to him/her and asked what the store intended to
do about it. *If* the conversation had been loud
enough for the clerk to make a decision on your
complaint, then it was loud enough for her to
witness to the Shift Manager. What would I
expect as a consumer? I would expect the store
to ask the people to leave if they persist in
offensive behavior in public. (snip)


With the possibility of lawsuits, I doubt many stores would be that
overt
today. Many of the offensive language laws of the past have been struck
down
as unconstitutional (enough that few stores would want to take much of a
chance pushing the issue)


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)


You always seem to come up with some reason not to effect change, Dwight.
At the end of the post you have a little bit of above, I even stated that
you could put the items down and leave--without ever saying a thing to
anyone.

How do you feel about doing that? If you totally disagree with how the
people were behaving, say nothing to anyone, and just simply walk out of the
store; then you be sure that you enlighten others as to this way of doing
something in our litigious society today, what do you think the potential is
of making some true changes in our society and in the businesses that we do
business with?

Oh, I forgot...never mind...I'm lying...

Kim W5TIT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more. Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it. I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.
I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around. There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.


Zactly ...Our society has become the "bum society". It is now the vogue to
have baby showers in the school for the 15 yr old girl instead of her
whispered trip to her aunt Mary's in Ohio that resulted in Aunt Mary raising
a child the proper way. We proclaim liberty and freedom in the old USA
but fail miserably to protect the unborn to the tune of millions a year.
Then the people wonder where the respect for human life has gone. Our TV
has become a cess pool instead of a resource. Did you ever see the "new"
cartoons? Vulgarity begins to be accepted as norm at a young age let alone
the Springer type shows out there. Common manners are gone. Who would have
ever eaten at home or a restaurant with a baseball cap on? Language ....
the liberal use of Sponge Bob's "sentence enhancers" is every where and
accepted as norm. It is of no surprise that ham radio manifests the same in
on air activities and "cute" calls. I however can escape to a venue where
I do not find this happening ...call it what you may ...I call it CW.

OOPs got me again ...Pontification filter is on

God Bless 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) At the end of the post you have a little
bit of above, I even stated that you could put
the items down and leave--without ever saying
a thing to anyone.

(snip) How do you feel about doing that? (snip)


Don't be so defensive, Kim. Most would agree one could simply walk out of
the store. Because of that, there was really nothing much to add to that
part of the conversation. Instead, I added to what you said in another part
of your message, which obviously gave you an opportunity to address that.
After all, if you're going to approach the manager, that is going to be on
his mind.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"fharting lemhurs" wrote:

As long as you keep the froot-loops all
in one place (snip)


Fruit. ;-)


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) At the end of the post you have a little
bit of above, I even stated that you could put
the items down and leave--without ever saying
a thing to anyone.

(snip) How do you feel about doing that? (snip)


Don't be so defensive, Kim. Most would agree one could simply walk out
of
the store. Because of that, there was really nothing much to add to that
part of the conversation. Instead, I added to what you said in another
part
of your message, which obviously gave you an opportunity to address that.
After all, if you're going to approach the manager, that is going to be on
his mind.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)


Defensive? I don't know where you got that. While the Manager may be
thinking of legality and lawsuit issues, it would not come to a legal issue
by simply approaching a manager about the issue. What that does is give one
the opportunity to "field" what reactions will be at the idea of a consumer
complaining about behaviors of others in a store. If it's determined,
through experience, that we can't do things people-to-people because of fear
of retribution, then there's all opportunity in, as I said, simply lying
down the products you were going to purchase and walking out. One could
even follow-up with a letter or email (anonymous or not) to the corporate
headquarters of the company.

I think I was probably of the thought you were being dismissive of the
*whole* idea simply because of fear of reprimand. Fear of reprimand is some
of what has paralyzed people in this country from demanding the behaviors we
wish to see from others (personal or business). There are ways around fear
of reprimand.

Kim W5TIT

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:51:31 -0600, Kim W5TIT wrote:

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.

By the way...you wouldn't be describing mostly youth, above, would you?

In both suburban areas that I have lived in the last 35+ years, in
the sumnmer one could sit and see "dress" that makes the Victoria's
Secret showroom look demure by comparison.

Fortunately my daughter never bought into that sort of conduct
although she could have been a "spectacle" had she done so. She
has too much respect for herself for that.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

On 15 Nov 2003 20:16:48 GMT, N2EY wrote:

The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Nope. FCC has completely different rules for different services. The
fact that somebody gets away with something in the broadcast services
doesn't mean it's OK in the ARS.

Quite a while back, there was a case against an amateur operator in
Los Angeles, and the ALJ ruled that the standards of broadcast
indecency articulated in the _Pacifica_ case (the "Seven Dirty Words"
case) also applied to the ARS because ARS transmissions are readily
available to the general public (i.e. are not protected by privacy
or secrecy statutes).

Generally the terminology states soemething to the effect of "good amateur
practice." My ONLY PROBLEM with that is WHO gets to decide what the
benchmark is for good amateur practice...... If the FCC, who issues our
licenses are not going to do it, then who?

Amen, brother.

As for specific words??? Dunno, is there a list?? :)

No.

Who makes the list then?

George Carlin, at last count.

Common sense and good taste used to be the guide. But I guess such
concepts are old-fashioned nowadays, from what some folks tell me when
I oppose the use of such language on the air and in newsgropups.....

Agreed.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

In article , JJ
writes:


Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law, the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more.

JJ:

sigh Yes, isn't that the truth?

Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it.

Every time I run into one of those potty-mouthed kids, I feel like feeding them
the business end of a baseball bat -- after it had been accelerated to home-run
hitting velocity!

I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.

I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I remember one time I called one of my brothers a *******. I was too young
to even know what the word meant. My father overheard me -- he immediately
made me go to my room, say an Act of Contrition, and immediately go to
bed for the rest of the evening. Before slamming the door of my bedroom,
he asked if I knew what a "*******" was, and I said no. Now I do. To this
very day I wish I'd looked in the dictionary before using that word!

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around.

As a youth in my mid-teens, I used to hang around one of the local gas
stations myself, so I can certainly identify with the colorful language.
However, whenever a female customer came in, everyone was strictly
on their best behaviour. One day this past summer, I was at a local
gas/convenience store, and a lady walked in and said to the young girl
behind the counter, "How come that ____ing pump won't ____ing turn
on for me?" I immediately replied, "because it's probably turned off by
your foul language!" You can imagine how she responded, but it's not
printable here, even with a lot of blank spaces.

There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.

Indeed. I myself, partly due to my having been exposed to the common
element during my military service, used to occasionally allow my language
to ripen a bit. I am now extremely cautious about that, and try to present
myself in a very polite, considerate manner at all times.

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.

Yes. I myself like to dress comfortably; my off-duty "uniform" consists
almost exclusively of kakhis and a pullover shirt, and New Balance
trainers. But my clothes are always clean and in good order -- I wouldn't
want to be caught dead dressed in the sloppy, baggy, totally disorganized
manner young people seem to prefer these days. I wonder who they
think they're impressing. Anyone dressed like that coming to me for a job
is only going to get my standard warning about the door.

73 de Larry, K3LT

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

(snip) One day this past summer, I was at a local
gas/convenience store, and a lady walked in and
said to the young girl behind the counter, "How
come that ____ing pump won't ____ing turn on
for me?" I immediately replied, "because it's
probably turned off by your foul language!" You
can imagine how she responded, but it's not
printable here, even with a lot of blank spaces.


LOL. That is funny, Larry. I would have paid to have been there to see
that.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Phil Kane wrote:




Quite a while back, there was a case against an amateur operator in
Los Angeles, and the ALJ ruled that the standards of broadcast
indecency articulated in the _Pacifica_ case (the "Seven Dirty Words"
case) also applied to the ARS because ARS transmissions are readily
available to the general public (i.e. are not protected by privacy
or secrecy statutes).

Well, today I heard the f word and the s word on an FM broadcast station
WLIR at about 12:50PM.
In a song. And it's not a RAP station. Oddly enough civilization did
not end at 1PM.....




Who makes the list then?



George Carlin, at last count.


Is it an urban legend, or is there a reference to George Carlin's
published work
that contains that list in FCC "case law" or in an FCC rule? That way,
the FCC
doesn't have to mention directly the bad words, but just refers to a
reference?