Language Rules from FCC
 

A neighbor tells me that the FCC has recently ruled that broadcast radio
stations are now "legally" able to "say the F word" on the air, as long as
it isn't sexual. Yeah, I know, go figure.

But, when I did a quick search on the FCC website, I found nothing of it.
Anyone know of this...my thoughts are on what will happen in amateur radio
now. The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Kim W5TIT

"Kim" wrote in message ...
A neighbor tells me that the FCC has recently ruled that broadcast radio
stations are now "legally" able to "say the F word" on the air, as long as
it isn't sexual. Yeah, I know, go figure.

I think it was in response to some rock star accepting an award and
saying it was "[expletive deleted]ing wonderful" or some such. FCC
said it wasn't a violation in that case. But if he'd said he was so
happy he wanted to [expletive deleted] the presenter, it would be a
violation.

Yeah, go figure.

But, when I did a quick search on the FCC website, I found nothing of it.

Of course not. They're not gonna advertise it because then everybody
would be saying it.

Anyone know of this...my thoughts are on what will happen in amateur radio
now.

Nothing, I hope.

The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Nope. FCC has completely different rules for different services. The
fact that somebody gets away with something in the broadcast services
doesn't mean it's OK in the ARS.

FCC regulates all electronic communications, not just radio waves.
Cable TV as well as broadcast TV, for example. Yet there are things
the cable folks can show that the broadcat folks can't. The thinking
is that people sign up for cable only if they want it, and it's a
private system, not the public airways. Broadcast TV is public
property. So it's like the difference between what's allowed in a
strip club and what's allowed on the street.

Between broadcasting and amatuer radio is the question of scheduling
and predictability. All broadcasters publish advance schedules, with
content warnings. So you can know what you're likely to see and hear
*before* tuning in to Howard Stern or the Victoria's Secret Fashion
Special. Not the case in amateur radio.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Kim W5TIT wrote:

A neighbor tells me that the FCC has recently ruled that broadcast radio
stations are now "legally" able to "say the F word" on the air, as long as
it isn't sexual. Yeah, I know, go figure.

But, when I did a quick search on the FCC website, I found nothing of it.
Anyone know of this...my thoughts are on what will happen in amateur radio
now. The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?



Dispite what the f ing FCC says, I'm not going to say the f ing f word
on f ing ham radio! ;-)

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 04:21:05 -0600, Kim W5TIT wrote:

A neighbor tells me that the FCC has recently ruled that broadcast radio
stations are now "legally" able to "say the F word" on the air, as long as
it isn't sexual. Yeah, I know, go figure.

But, when I did a quick search on the FCC website, I found nothing of it.
Anyone know of this...my thoughts are on what will happen in amateur radio
now. The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

The Commish, in its infinite wisdom, decidied to take no action on
the situation (i.e. they just hid from their responsibilities once
again).

This is vastly different from saying that it's OK to use that
language. This also does not create any precedent that anyone can
rely on.

The next sitution may result in full-fledged prosecution - who is to
say it won't? Nowadays one can't predict what they will do.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

In article , "Kim W5TIT"
writes:

A neighbor tells me that the FCC has recently ruled that broadcast radio
stations are now "legally" able to "say the F word" on the air, as long as
it isn't sexual. Yeah, I know, go figure.

But, when I did a quick search on the FCC website, I found nothing of it.
Anyone know of this...my thoughts are on what will happen in amateur radio
now. The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Kim, you are welcome to look IN DETAIL all throughout Title 47 C.F.R.
and you are NOT going to find those "words." [it's a 5-volume set on
paper from the G.P.O.]

There is NO such "word list."

All that you can find are some generalized statements about obscenity
and so forth in the rules, ALL rules and regulations.

The only "words" in broadcasting are at the NAB, the National
Association of Broadcasters...and the individual Standards
groups at individual broadcasting networks.

LHA

But, when I did a quick search on the FCC website, I found nothing of
it.

Of course not. They're not gonna advertise it because then everybody
would be saying it.

Geee..... didn't Carlin cover this??? (i.e. George Carlin?)


Anyone know of this...my thoughts are on what will happen in amateur
radio
now.

Nothing, I hope.

The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Nope. FCC has completely different rules for different services. The
fact that somebody gets away with something in the broadcast services
doesn't mean it's OK in the ARS.

Generally the terminology states soemething to the effect of "good amateur
practice." My ONLY PROBLEM with that is WHO gets to decide what the
benchmark is for good amateur practice...... If the FCC, who issues our
licenses are not going to do it, then who?


As for specific words??? Dunno, is there a list?? :) Who makes the list
then? Are other things other than the known "7 dirty words" included? If
someone is of say, for instance a different faith than you, do you get to
determine anything they say religiously is offensive and should be banned
speech? I am sure there are other examples one could come up with......



--
Ryan KC8PMX

"Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you
still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs."

Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:

Geee..... didn't Carlin cover this??? (i.e. George Carlin?)




As for specific words??? Dunno, is there a list?? :) Who makes the list
then? Are other things other than the known "7 dirty words" included? If
someone is of say, for instance a different faith than you, do you get to
determine anything they say religiously is offensive and should be banned
speech? I am sure there are other examples one could come up with......



Heard (possible urban legend) that the FCC in "case law" refers to
George Carlin's list
but doesn't actually list the words. George Carlin's recorded comedy
bit is a "published
work", like that of a book, and thus can be referred to in another
document. I'm no
lawyer, so the above could be BS.....

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message ...
But, when I did a quick search on the FCC website, I found nothing of
it.

Of course not. They're not gonna advertise it because then everybody
would be saying it.

Geee..... didn't Carlin cover this??? (i.e. George Carlin?)

Yep, 1970's. George and Buddy got rich off of being nasty.

In article ,
(N2EY) writes:

Between broadcasting and amatuer radio is the question of scheduling
and predictability. All broadcasters publish advance schedules, with
content warnings. So you can know what you're likely to see and hear
*before* tuning in to Howard Stern or the Victoria's Secret Fashion
Special. Not the case in amateur radio.

Jim:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law, the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

In article , "Kim W5TIT"
writes:

A neighbor tells me that the FCC has recently ruled that broadcast radio
stations are now "legally" able to "say the F word" on the air, as long as
it isn't sexual. Yeah, I know, go figure.

But, when I did a quick search on the FCC website, I found nothing of it.
Anyone know of this...my thoughts are on what will happen in amateur radio
now. The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Kim W5TIT

Kim:

You apparently couldn't care less about whether or not sexually-suggestive,
objectionable language used in the context of poor individual judgment is
used on-the-air. If you did, you would have taken Mr. Hollingsworth's
admonishment to heart, and changed your call sign. However, if it makes
you feel better, in recent weeks I've heard the words "****" and "****" used
on prime-time TV programs. The effect that had on me was to make me
pick up my infrared transmitting device and QSY to The History Channel.

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law, the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more. Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it. I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.
I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around. There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.

"JJ" wrote:

(snip) I have heard five year olds use words that
I would never dared to speak in front of an adult
when I was a youngster. (snip)


I've heard five year olds use words that I, as an adult, would not say in
front of other adults today. I'm certainly not a prude, but I just don't see
how vulgar language improves communications or one's impression of another.


I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by
a teacher at school no less, would like to see
one try that now), for saying much less.


My mother preferred dishwashing liquid (claimed it was safer than some
hand or body soaps). Once was enough for me, but my brother went on a foul
language spree one summer and "got the treatment" probably five or six
times. My sister got it when she was about sixteen or seventeen.


(snip) It isn't uncommon for me to step into an
elevator with my wife and hear others using very
vulgar language with no regards to who is
listening and may be offended by such language.
(snip)


There was a guy and his wife (girlfriend or whatever) in line behind us at
Office Max the other day. I've never heard so much foul language in such a
short amount of time (seemed like every second or third word out of his
mouth). And I'm talking nasty stuff - women's body parts, his wife's body
parts, body parts in general, negative words for men and women, and so on. I
finally asked him to keep his voice down. When that didn't work, I asked him
not to use such language. When I finally got the register, he started it
again. In anger (and since there was nobody else in line), I had the casher
go with me to search for printer ink behind another counter and made sure we
had a nice little conversation. We even talked about his language. When he
finally went to another line, we returned to the register to complete my
purchase. Less than ten seconds later, the guy rushed towards the register
to get behind us again. However, the casher saw him coming and put the
register closed sign up before he got there. As he walked away, and I was
picking up my bag to leave, she smiled real big and told us to have a nice
day. This was one of the few times I truly believed a casher meant those
words when said.


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)


I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to dress
up for a ham fest.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"JJ" wrote in message
...
Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law,
the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more.


I think we all care, JJ, it's just that we've lost our ability to "tolerate"
because it's become a very jealous world.


Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it. I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.
I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around.


JJ, leaving the children aside because I agree with you on that one...but,
let me assure that in the dairy land where I grew up--we women on the farms
were quite capable of being just as foul-mouthed as any man. Nope, we
didn't do it in front of the men--Heaven forbid they realize we weren't the
demure, dainty pieces they thought we were, but we did it.

And, in my opinion, words don't hurt anyone. It's actions that hurt. I
don't care to hear a little kid running around cursing; I don't even care to
hear it from a man or me. But I also believe that it is our *concept* of it
being so terrible that makes it so. I really mean that. It is the
expression being felt or communicated through a word that is the "bad"
thing. If I say, "I HATE YOU" in the same tone of voice as "I LOVE YOU" you
are going to perceive that you are getting a double message the you are
going to at least wonder if there is some negative emotion being expressed
as I am saying "I LOVE YOU." George Carlin's skit on words had precisely
that lesson in it. It isn't the word--it's the emotion behind it.


There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.


I agree. But, I hope you'll understand that there's a fine line between
having respect for others, and others then being able to "dictate" how I
should behave. For instance, I totally respect anyone's opinion that
cursing in public is offensive to them. So, I generally don't curse in
public. Out loud anyway :o But, when I am in my house, or in my "corner of
the world with friends of like mind," then I'm going to curse away if I'm so
inclined. Would you dictate that I am rolled up into your opinion with the
others you mention above--or am I being disrespectful to you for cursing at
any time?


Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.


Oh, now see. There's where you and I would definitely disagree. I really
don't care how someone is dressed--although I've found myself at times
having to get over an initial reaction, if you know what I mean. If I walk
into a business office and see someone with a t-shirt and jeans on--I am
initially taken off guard. But, I quickly get *myself* over that and
continue with whatever I walked in for. I hate, absolutely hate that I work
in a corporate environment with dark suits around me all day...gosh I hate
that. In other words, I've seen people in very sloppy dress with wonderful
mannerisms and respect for others...and I've seen some people in very fancy
and "respectful" garb that are completely without feelings for anything or
anyone around them.

By the way...you wouldn't be describing mostly youth, above, would you?

Kim W5TIT

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"JJ" wrote:

(snip) I have heard five year olds use words that
I would never dared to speak in front of an adult
when I was a youngster. (snip)

I've heard five year olds use words that I, as an adult, would not say
in
front of other adults today. I'm certainly not a prude, but I just don't
see
how vulgar language improves communications or one's impression of
another.

I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by
a teacher at school no less, would like to see
one try that now), for saying much less.

My mother preferred dishwashing liquid (claimed it was safer than some
hand or body soaps). Once was enough for me, but my brother went on a foul
language spree one summer and "got the treatment" probably five or six
times. My sister got it when she was about sixteen or seventeen.

(snip) It isn't uncommon for me to step into an
elevator with my wife and hear others using very
vulgar language with no regards to who is
listening and may be offended by such language.
(snip)

There was a guy and his wife (girlfriend or whatever) in line behind us
at
Office Max the other day. I've never heard so much foul language in such a
short amount of time (seemed like every second or third word out of his
mouth). And I'm talking nasty stuff - women's body parts, his wife's body
parts, body parts in general, negative words for men and women, and so on.
I
finally asked him to keep his voice down. When that didn't work, I asked
him
not to use such language. When I finally got the register, he started it
again. In anger (and since there was nobody else in line), I had the
casher
go with me to search for printer ink behind another counter and made sure
we
had a nice little conversation. We even talked about his language. When he
finally went to another line, we returned to the register to complete my
purchase. Less than ten seconds later, the guy rushed towards the register
to get behind us again. However, the casher saw him coming and put the
register closed sign up before he got there. As he walked away, and I was
picking up my bag to leave, she smiled real big and told us to have a nice
day. This was one of the few times I truly believed a casher meant those
words when said.


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)


I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to
dress
up for a ham fest.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/


I would have asked to visit with the Shift Manager and would have explained
the situation to him/her and asked what the store intended to do about it.
*If* the conversation had been loud enough for the clerk to make a decision
on your complaint, then it was loud enough for her to witness to the Shift
Manager. What would I expect as a consumer? I would expect the store to
ask the people to leave if they persist in offensive behavior in public.
There are laws against it. We probably have to take some form of personal
responsibility--and we may be too stupid or lazy to do so, I don't know--for
those laws to work but, failing that, my action would have been to place my
products down on the counter and walk out of the store.

*That* is what Jim means by shopping with our wallets. On a small, teeny,
tiny scale, I just had a meeting with that company's BoD. And, more people
need to start having that meeting with the BoD. You call it "local" or
whatever. But that BoD makes investment decisions for its shareholders.
And, whether I am a shareholder or not, if me, and you, and him, and her,
and them, and those people over there, and all of us combined start
affecting the bottom dollar of a company's stock price--then we've also have
a very effective meeting with the BoD.

And, the greatest thing is, you could choose to leave without ever saying a
word to anyone--either way you choose to act; *as long as you leave without
purchase* has the same affect.

Kim W5TIT

Dwight Stewart wrote:


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)



I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to dress
up for a ham fest.


Casual is OK, but there is a differenc between casual and sloppy.
Clothes that have obviously been worn for several days and smelly are
sloppy. I have seen a lot of that at ham fest. Seems that to some hams,
the acquiring of a license means they now only have to take a bath once
a month or less.

"JJ" wrote in message
...
Dwight Stewart wrote:


And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)



I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other
casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places).
Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I
would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to
dress
up for a ham fest.


Casual is OK, but there is a differenc between casual and sloppy.
Clothes that have obviously been worn for several days and smelly are
sloppy. I have seen a lot of that at ham fest. Seems that to some hams,
the acquiring of a license means they now only have to take a bath once
a month or less.


snicker I don't think "hams" have cornered the market on stinking...

Kim W5TIT

In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:

Geee..... didn't Carlin cover this??? (i.e. George Carlin?)

His "seven words" bit is where the list originated. No such list existed in the
FCC rules.

Anyone know of this...my thoughts are on what will happen in amateur
radio now.

Nothing, I hope.

The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Nope. FCC has completely different rules for different services. The
fact that somebody gets away with something in the broadcast services
doesn't mean it's OK in the ARS.

Generally the terminology states soemething to the effect of "good amateur
practice." My ONLY PROBLEM with that is WHO gets to decide what the
benchmark is for good amateur practice...... If the FCC, who issues our
licenses are not going to do it, then who?

Here's one guide:

http://members.aol.com/berrymanp/alyrics/fword.html


As for specific words??? Dunno, is there a list?? :) Who makes the list
then? Are other things other than the known "7 dirty words" included? If
someone is of say, for instance a different faith than you, do you get to
determine anything they say religiously is offensive and should be banned
speech? I am sure there are other examples one could come up with......

Common sense and good taste used to be the guide. But I guess such concepts are
old-fashioned nowadays, from what some folks tell me when I oppose the use of
such language on the air and in newsgropups.....

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) I would have asked to visit with the Shift
Manager and would have explained the situation
to him/her and asked what the store intended to
do about it. *If* the conversation had been loud
enough for the clerk to make a decision on your
complaint, then it was loud enough for her to
witness to the Shift Manager. What would I
expect as a consumer? I would expect the store
to ask the people to leave if they persist in
offensive behavior in public. (snip)


With the possibility of lawsuits, I doubt many stores would be that overt
today. Many of the offensive language laws of the past have been struck down
as unconstitutional (enough that few stores would want to take much of a
chance pushing the issue)


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"JJ" wrote:

Casual is OK, but there is a differenc between
casual and sloppy. Clothes that have obviously
been worn for several days and smelly are
sloppy. I have seen a lot of that at ham fest.
Seems that to some hams, the acquiring of a
license means they now only have to take a
bath once a month or less.


I've seen it too, JJ. But, since it's pretty much a personal choice, there
isn't much that can be done except to set a higher standard for ourselves.
In our case (my wife and I), that's easy. We lived in Europe for ten years,
in a country where people tend to dress relatively well in public and keep
their homes and neighborhoods clean. We picked up that habit and now find it
uncomfortable to do anything less. When we first returned, my relatives
constantly complained we were overdressed. That surprised us since we were
wearing the cloths we wore daily in Germany (our nice cloths were still
packed). Many of our friends and family still think we're a little eccentric
(the actual word two of them used) for keeping our home so clean. We've
since started wearing more casual cloths, and are not so rigid on the house
cleaning, but not anywhere near what I see around us. My wife's brother
visited last summer and commented that our house looked like a museum. While
the house was cleaned for the visit, I certainly wouldn't go that far when
describing it.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote in message
...

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law,
the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

As long as you keep the froot-loops all
in one place then I see no problem.
For an example, the historically amusing ham
frequency of 14.313 MHz. is becoming alive again
with the sound of screwballs (..as opposed to the
sound of music) on the weekends like clockwork again.
You know it's gonna be there like Monday Night Football.
I have observed for 20+ yrs that as long as the screwballs, bootleggers
and kooks among our ranks KNOW where they
can go for their weekend dose of juvenile
amusement, they will gravitate to the same
and leave the rest of us *alone*. It's like the
red light district in town. Every medium city needs
one where the dregs of society can go to fulfill
their needs and perverse desires. 14.313 and one
or two freqs on 75 Meters do just that and act
as a steam poppet valve for the rest of the hobby.
Logical, ain't it?

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) I would have asked to visit with the Shift
Manager and would have explained the situation
to him/her and asked what the store intended to
do about it. *If* the conversation had been loud
enough for the clerk to make a decision on your
complaint, then it was loud enough for her to
witness to the Shift Manager. What would I
expect as a consumer? I would expect the store
to ask the people to leave if they persist in
offensive behavior in public. (snip)


With the possibility of lawsuits, I doubt many stores would be that
overt
today. Many of the offensive language laws of the past have been struck
down
as unconstitutional (enough that few stores would want to take much of a
chance pushing the issue)


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)


You always seem to come up with some reason not to effect change, Dwight.
At the end of the post you have a little bit of above, I even stated that
you could put the items down and leave--without ever saying a thing to
anyone.

How do you feel about doing that? If you totally disagree with how the
people were behaving, say nothing to anyone, and just simply walk out of the
store; then you be sure that you enlighten others as to this way of doing
something in our litigious society today, what do you think the potential is
of making some true changes in our society and in the businesses that we do
business with?

Oh, I forgot...never mind...I'm lying...

Kim W5TIT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more. Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it. I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.
I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around. There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.


Zactly ...Our society has become the "bum society". It is now the vogue to
have baby showers in the school for the 15 yr old girl instead of her
whispered trip to her aunt Mary's in Ohio that resulted in Aunt Mary raising
a child the proper way. We proclaim liberty and freedom in the old USA
but fail miserably to protect the unborn to the tune of millions a year.
Then the people wonder where the respect for human life has gone. Our TV
has become a cess pool instead of a resource. Did you ever see the "new"
cartoons? Vulgarity begins to be accepted as norm at a young age let alone
the Springer type shows out there. Common manners are gone. Who would have
ever eaten at home or a restaurant with a baseball cap on? Language ....
the liberal use of Sponge Bob's "sentence enhancers" is every where and
accepted as norm. It is of no surprise that ham radio manifests the same in
on air activities and "cute" calls. I however can escape to a venue where
I do not find this happening ...call it what you may ...I call it CW.

OOPs got me again ...Pontification filter is on

God Bless 73 KI3R Tom Popovic Belle Vernon Pa

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) At the end of the post you have a little
bit of above, I even stated that you could put
the items down and leave--without ever saying
a thing to anyone.

(snip) How do you feel about doing that? (snip)


Don't be so defensive, Kim. Most would agree one could simply walk out of
the store. Because of that, there was really nothing much to add to that
part of the conversation. Instead, I added to what you said in another part
of your message, which obviously gave you an opportunity to address that.
After all, if you're going to approach the manager, that is going to be on
his mind.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"fharting lemhurs" wrote:

As long as you keep the froot-loops all
in one place (snip)


Fruit. ;-)


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) At the end of the post you have a little
bit of above, I even stated that you could put
the items down and leave--without ever saying
a thing to anyone.

(snip) How do you feel about doing that? (snip)


Don't be so defensive, Kim. Most would agree one could simply walk out
of
the store. Because of that, there was really nothing much to add to that
part of the conversation. Instead, I added to what you said in another
part
of your message, which obviously gave you an opportunity to address that.
After all, if you're going to approach the manager, that is going to be on
his mind.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)


Defensive? I don't know where you got that. While the Manager may be
thinking of legality and lawsuit issues, it would not come to a legal issue
by simply approaching a manager about the issue. What that does is give one
the opportunity to "field" what reactions will be at the idea of a consumer
complaining about behaviors of others in a store. If it's determined,
through experience, that we can't do things people-to-people because of fear
of retribution, then there's all opportunity in, as I said, simply lying
down the products you were going to purchase and walking out. One could
even follow-up with a letter or email (anonymous or not) to the corporate
headquarters of the company.

I think I was probably of the thought you were being dismissive of the
*whole* idea simply because of fear of reprimand. Fear of reprimand is some
of what has paralyzed people in this country from demanding the behaviors we
wish to see from others (personal or business). There are ways around fear
of reprimand.

Kim W5TIT

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:51:31 -0600, Kim W5TIT wrote:

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.

By the way...you wouldn't be describing mostly youth, above, would you?

In both suburban areas that I have lived in the last 35+ years, in
the sumnmer one could sit and see "dress" that makes the Victoria's
Secret showroom look demure by comparison.

Fortunately my daughter never bought into that sort of conduct
although she could have been a "spectacle" had she done so. She
has too much respect for herself for that.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

On 15 Nov 2003 20:16:48 GMT, N2EY wrote:

The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Nope. FCC has completely different rules for different services. The
fact that somebody gets away with something in the broadcast services
doesn't mean it's OK in the ARS.

Quite a while back, there was a case against an amateur operator in
Los Angeles, and the ALJ ruled that the standards of broadcast
indecency articulated in the _Pacifica_ case (the "Seven Dirty Words"
case) also applied to the ARS because ARS transmissions are readily
available to the general public (i.e. are not protected by privacy
or secrecy statutes).

Generally the terminology states soemething to the effect of "good amateur
practice." My ONLY PROBLEM with that is WHO gets to decide what the
benchmark is for good amateur practice...... If the FCC, who issues our
licenses are not going to do it, then who?

Amen, brother.

As for specific words??? Dunno, is there a list?? :)

No.

Who makes the list then?

George Carlin, at last count.

Common sense and good taste used to be the guide. But I guess such
concepts are old-fashioned nowadays, from what some folks tell me when
I oppose the use of such language on the air and in newsgropups.....

Agreed.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

In article , JJ
writes:


Larry Roll K3LT wrote:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law, the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

Larry, our society has pretty much come to the point that people don't
care what others think of them any more.

JJ:

sigh Yes, isn't that the truth?

Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it.

Every time I run into one of those potty-mouthed kids, I feel like feeding them
the business end of a baseball bat -- after it had been accelerated to home-run
hitting velocity!

I have heard five year olds use words that I
would never dared to speak in front of an adult when I was a youngster.

I have had my mouth washed out with soap (by a teacher at school no
less, would like to see one try that now), for saying much less.

I remember one time I called one of my brothers a *******. I was too young
to even know what the word meant. My father overheard me -- he immediately
made me go to my room, say an Act of Contrition, and immediately go to
bed for the rest of the evening. Before slamming the door of my bedroom,
he asked if I knew what a "*******" was, and I said no. Now I do. To this
very day I wish I'd looked in the dictionary before using that word!

I grew up in a farming community and when around the men, sure a few
cuss words would fly occasionally, especially when the wrench slipped
and a busted knuckle was the result, or over at the local shop where the
farmers gathered as their trucks and tractors were being serviced, a
hell or damn was pretty common, but never in a public place where women
and children were around.

As a youth in my mid-teens, I used to hang around one of the local gas
stations myself, so I can certainly identify with the colorful language.
However, whenever a female customer came in, everyone was strictly
on their best behaviour. One day this past summer, I was at a local
gas/convenience store, and a lady walked in and said to the young girl
behind the counter, "How come that ____ing pump won't ____ing turn
on for me?" I immediately replied, "because it's probably turned off by
your foul language!" You can imagine how she responded, but it's not
printable here, even with a lot of blank spaces.

There was respect for others then. It isn't
uncommon for me to step into an elevator with my wife and hear others
using very vulgar language with no regards to who is listening and may
be offended by such language. The sad part is, they think it is just
accepted that everyone has lowered themselves to such a common level.

Indeed. I myself, partly due to my having been exposed to the common
element during my military service, used to occasionally allow my language
to ripen a bit. I am now extremely cautious about that, and try to present
myself in a very polite, considerate manner at all times.

Ever set at the mall and just watch the people pass by? Look at the
sloppy dress, some look like they stepped out of a cartoon. Few have
pride in themselves anymore. And if you really want to see some
sloppyness, go to a ham fest. It is a sad commentary on our society today.

Yes. I myself like to dress comfortably; my off-duty "uniform" consists
almost exclusively of kakhis and a pullover shirt, and New Balance
trainers. But my clothes are always clean and in good order -- I wouldn't
want to be caught dead dressed in the sloppy, baggy, totally disorganized
manner young people seem to prefer these days. I wonder who they
think they're impressing. Anyone dressed like that coming to me for a job
is only going to get my standard warning about the door.

73 de Larry, K3LT

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote:

(snip) One day this past summer, I was at a local
gas/convenience store, and a lady walked in and
said to the young girl behind the counter, "How
come that ____ing pump won't ____ing turn on
for me?" I immediately replied, "because it's
probably turned off by your foul language!" You
can imagine how she responded, but it's not
printable here, even with a lot of blank spaces.


LOL. That is funny, Larry. I would have paid to have been there to see
that.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

Phil Kane wrote:




Quite a while back, there was a case against an amateur operator in
Los Angeles, and the ALJ ruled that the standards of broadcast
indecency articulated in the _Pacifica_ case (the "Seven Dirty Words"
case) also applied to the ARS because ARS transmissions are readily
available to the general public (i.e. are not protected by privacy
or secrecy statutes).

Well, today I heard the f word and the s word on an FM broadcast station
WLIR at about 12:50PM.
In a song. And it's not a RAP station. Oddly enough civilization did
not end at 1PM.....




Who makes the list then?



George Carlin, at last count.


Is it an urban legend, or is there a reference to George Carlin's
published work
that contains that list in FCC "case law" or in an FCC rule? That way,
the FCC
doesn't have to mention directly the bad words, but just refers to a
reference?

Foul, vulgar language is used
so much now that it is spoken in homes as if it were accepted language
and the kids pick up on it.



Every time I run into one of those potty-mouthed kids, I feel like feeding them
the business end of a baseball bat -- after it had been accelerated to home-run
hitting velocity!


Way back in the late 60's when I was in Catholic high school, and away
from adults
with direct authority over us (parents or teachers or cops) we sometimes
had
contests to who could out-vulgar each other. Like yelling dirty
comments from the
school bus as we passed our arch rival (football league) school.
Probably as
"venting steam" when away from the excessive discipline they used to do
in Catholic
schools back then (each nun was issued 15 inch rulers...). What they
call "child
abuse" nowadays. If "fear-loathing-hatred" = "respect", then we "respected"
authority. It didn't help things any when the entire class got punished for
something, whether or not if you individually were guilty of whatever it
was.

/rant

Anyway, the kids are likely just blowing off steam, purposly being
annoying to adults as a kind of payback for their teachers and parents
annoying them. You see it say when high school kids walk in the street
partially blocking traffic in areas where sidewalks are avaliable.
And kids using bad language in the Mall, "what are they gonna do
to us?".

Most young adults grow out of this by the time they get real jobs
(not McJobs) and ham licenses.

The George Carlin thing was meant more of a jab at humor rather than fact...
:)


--
Ryan KC8PMX

"Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you
still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs."

"Robert Casey" wrote in message
...
Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:

Geee..... didn't Carlin cover this??? (i.e. George Carlin?)




As for specific words??? Dunno, is there a list?? :) Who makes the list
then? Are other things other than the known "7 dirty words" included? If
someone is of say, for instance a different faith than you, do you get to
determine anything they say religiously is offensive and should be banned
speech? I am sure there are other examples one could come up with......



Heard (possible urban legend) that the FCC in "case law" refers to
George Carlin's list
but doesn't actually list the words. George Carlin's recorded comedy
bit is a "published
work", like that of a book, and thus can be referred to in another
document. I'm no
lawyer, so the above could be BS.....

Alrighty then.... I am sick and tired and feel it is patently offensive to
hear about old fart's bowel conditions, regardless if they cuss when
discussing those..... let's make that banned speech! After all it's good
amateur practice!


--
Ryan KC8PMX

"Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you
still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs."

Jim:

Precisely. On amateur radio, one never knows when one will encounter
something which may make someone think twice about our hobby being
a wholesome and proper activity for a young person. When that happens,
whether or not what was said was "legal" within the letter of the law, the
potential exists for the effect to bring the ARS "...one step closer to
extinction."

73 de Larry, K3LT

My guess is that some moron years ago decided that these damned hamfest MUST
occur at like 8am and that the guys going to them figured, " to hell with a
shower! I will be back in a while"

I am sorry if this offends, but I shower twice a day, use
deodorant/antiperspirant and wear clean, laundered clothing even if it is a
t-shirt and shorts or jeans. Not saying having to dress in the sunday best
but.......

I have seen better dressed homeless people in some cases!


--
Ryan KC8PMX

"Why is it one careless match can start a forest fire, but
it takes a whole box to start a barbecue?"

And if you really want to see some sloppyness,
go to a ham fest. (snip)


I can accept a certain level of sloppyness at a ham fest or other casual
event (as opposed to the mall, restaurant, work, or other such places). Or
perhaps I should say that I dress more sloppily at a ham fest than I would
at work or so forth. I just don't really see an overwhelming reason to
dress
up for a ham fest.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message
...
A neighbor tells me that the FCC has recently ruled that broadcast radio
stations are now "legally" able to "say the F word" on the air, as long as
it isn't sexual. Yeah, I know, go figure.

But, when I did a quick search on the FCC website, I found nothing of it.
Anyone know of this...my thoughts are on what will happen in amateur radio
now. The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Kim W5TIT

What about language rules attached to callsigns?

Dan Finn wrote


What about language rules attached to callsigns?


Oh crap, here we go again!

With all kind wishes,
de Hans, K0HB

--
"The dust will not settle in our time. And when it does some great roaring
machine will come and whirl it all sky-high again."
--Samuel Beckett

In article , "Phil Kane"
writes:

On 15 Nov 2003 20:16:48 GMT, N2EY wrote:

The broadcast arena has always been the barometer of what people are
allowed to say on the air, hasn't it?

Nope. FCC has completely different rules for different services. The
fact that somebody gets away with something in the broadcast services
doesn't mean it's OK in the ARS.

Quite a while back, there was a case against an amateur operator in
Los Angeles, and the ALJ ruled that the standards of broadcast
indecency articulated in the _Pacifica_ case (the "Seven Dirty Words"
case) also applied to the ARS because ARS transmissions are readily
available to the general public (i.e. are not protected by privacy
or secrecy statutes).

Sure - but as I read that, (insert standard "layman, not a lawyer" disclaimer
here) that means the ARS cannot go beyond what the BC services can do. IOW the
ARS "lower bound of decency" cannot be lower than that of the BC services.

Generally the terminology states soemething to the effect of "good amateur
practice." My ONLY PROBLEM with that is WHO gets to decide what the
benchmark is for good amateur practice...... If the FCC, who issues our
licenses are not going to do it, then who?

Amen, brother.

Yea, verily.

As for specific words??? Dunno, is there a list?? :)

No.

Who makes the list then?

George Carlin, at last count.

More like nobody. How did we all get to hear that routine?

Common sense and good taste used to be the guide. But I guess such
concepts are old-fashioned nowadays, from what some folks tell me when
I oppose the use of such language on the air and in newsgropups.....

Agreed.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:

Jim.... of all the people here I thought for sure you would see where I was
going with that.......

Of course.

it goes well beyond the "dirty words" and could
extend to any speech undesireable by others that could be deemed offensive
and therefor punishable.

I still believe in common sense and good taste, old-fashioned as that may seem.
Discussing one's gastrointestinal problems in detail on the air may be legal
but that doesn't make it acceptable....

I never hear that sort of stuff in CW ragchews, btw.

Heck, we have organizations in the US already
trying that..... not a small step to extend to ham radio!

You mean like folks who say the press is "liberally biased" or "beholden to big
business" when it reports things they don't like?

Like I said.... look beyond the cuss words, and there is a ton of things
that some radical freaks could oppose.

Sure. But limiting what can be said on the amateur bands is not an incursion
into free speech, because the amateur bands are public property.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you
still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs."

As for specific words??? Dunno, is there a list?? :) Who makes the list
then? Are other things other than the known "7 dirty words" included? If
someone is of say, for instance a different faith than you, do you get to
determine anything they say religiously is offensive and should be banned
speech? I am sure there are other examples one could come up with......

Common sense and good taste used to be the guide. But I guess such
concepts are
old-fashioned nowadays, from what some folks tell me when I oppose the use
of
such language on the air and in newsgropups.....

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article . net, "KØHB"
writes:

Dan Finn wrote


What about language rules attached to callsigns?


Oh

[expletive deleted]

here we go again!

That sort of talk will tale rrap "one step closer...."

You know the rest.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 05:36:11 -0500, Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:

Alrighty then.... I am sick and tired and feel it is patently offensive to
hear about old fart's bowel conditions, regardless if they cuss when
discussing those..... let's make that banned speech! After all it's good
amateur practice!

It's indecency only when it raises purient interest. Does
someone's bowel surgery raise purient interest in you ?? ggg

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane