Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/23/03 4:44 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 12/23/03 12:29 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

The age is 71, not 70.

Too bad you'll never make that age...

Hopefully you won't make it PAST it.

Steve, K4YZ

Not nice.

If you want "nice", spend more time in a "Victoria's Secret" catolog,
Brain.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Why You Don't Like The ARRL
From: (Brian)
Date: 12/23/03 4:51 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

My only "humbling" before Lennie would be to not further embarass him
with
his own foolishness.

Hey, its Christmas.

Yes, it is...and Lennie keeps providing us with more and more
netertainment...And also proves that "stupid" and "foolish" are not
age-specific acts.

Steve, K4YZ

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

As a single "authoritative voice," a New England membership
group DEFINES everything in amateurism for all amateurs. No
bickering, no dissension, no arguing. All do as They say.
No problems. Everyone happy in Nirvana.

Which group and which magazine? ham radio and 73 magazines were New
England based, but they're both defunct.

Your description of a membership organization that does not tolerate
dissent sounds exactly like NoCode International. Right in their bylaws it

says that any member who publicly disagrees with their stated position on
code testing is subject to expulsion. They also require that all members
agree to their prime directive goal as a condition of membership. No one
who disagrees with their core policy can be a member of NoCode
International.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just stating facts.

And now some puzzle pieces fit together. I can now reconcile Carl's
vision of how leaders are supposed to lead and his organization. Strong
leadership, independent from member opinion, and if you don't like it,
you're out.

Jimmie isn't stating any "facts."

"Of whom are you speaking, old man?"

Right in NCI's bylaws it says that any member who publicly disagrees with their
stated position on code testing is subject to expulsion.

Fact or fiction?

They also require that all members agree to their prime directive goal as a
condition of membership.

Fact or fiction?

No one who disagrees with their core policy can be a member of NoCode
International.

Fact or fiction?

He is simply manufacturing an
argument for the sake of something to argue about. SOP for Jimmie.

"I tell it like it is. You are just another arrogant control-freak wanting
others to be subservient to your viewpoints. You can't accept a damn thing if
it isn't in line with your holy opinions."


[he seems to need something, anything, to argue about every day]

"Reality points to the fact that you CANNOT accept any opinions contrary to
your own with grace or gentle manner...you constantly, belligerently go after
any person who can stand up to you and show where your ideas aren't valid."

No Code International is most of all a political special interest group.
It asks for no dues, does not demand a license of any kind in order
to belong.

But it does require absolute allegiance to its prime directive of eliminating
all code testing. No disagreement or dissent allowed, under penalty of
expulsion.

Unlike the ARRL...which IS a dues-asking, amateur license required,
membership organization and political special interest group and a
publishing business, NCI does not pretend to represent "all" amateurs.

NCI says that it knows what is best for the future of amateur radio.

ARRL pretends to "represent all amateurs"

Where does it claim that? Show us an exact quote.

yet they still haven't
gotten close to a majority of all licensed U.S. amateurs to belong
to them. They've not been able to do that for years past.

The exact size of either organization is unknown, but from all davailable data
it is clear that ARRL, despite dues and annual renewals, is at least 30 times
the size of NCI.

ARRL accepts for membership those who disagree with and want to change their
policies. NCI does not.

There has been an amateur license available in the USA without any code test
for almost 13 years now. ARRL membership voting rights are the same regardless
of license class.

ARRL refuses to take a stand on code testing in the USA yet the
International Amateur Radio Union long ago came out for eliminating
the code test internationally.

"Strange words. According to the FCC, not to mention a couple of Acts of
Congress (one in 1934, another in 1996), only the FCC created the class of the
(no-code-test) Technician license. Not the US Congress. Not the ITU."

Once that happens, NCI has stated
that it will dissolve, cease to exist as a special interest entity.

Perhaps it will, perhaps it won't.

It seems you want ARRL to dissolve, cease to exist. You accept the organization
that does not allow dissent, and reject the organization that accepts and
allows dissent. Why?

NCI is a very small group,

What is its exact membership?

has no law firm on retainer in DC,

"Oh, my, were you admitted to a bar this afternoon and thought you had become a
legal beagle? Arf, arf?"

nor
does it have another group on retainer to lobby the FCC.

Why would that be needed for a single issue?

ARRL does.
NCI directors get out and personally lobby for action on elimination
of code testing, including all the way to Geneva and WRC-03...and
not on a multi-million annual budget available to the ARRL.

WK3C was at Geneva for reasons other than S25.5. His way was paid for by his
employer. He has stated that right here in this newsgroup. He did not go on his
own nickel, or NCI's.

"I'd like to see YOU address the FCC in the same manner as you address others."


"When I see "cogent debate" from yourself, sans the snarly sarcasm...from
yourself, I'll be more than happy to do REAL debate with you.....

You can't do it. Have never done it."

You get one guess who wrote the wors in quotes.

N2EY wrote:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:


In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:


In article ,



(Len Over 21) writes:

As a single "authoritative voice," a New England membership
group DEFINES everything in amateurism for all amateurs. No
bickering, no dissension, no arguing. All do as They say.
No problems. Everyone happy in Nirvana.

Which group and which magazine? ham radio and 73 magazines were New
England based, but they're both defunct.

Your description of a membership organization that does not tolerate
dissent sounds exactly like NoCode International. Right in their bylaws it


says that any member who publicly disagrees with their stated position on
code testing is subject to expulsion. They also require that all members
agree to their prime directive goal as a condition of membership. No one
who disagrees with their core policy can be a member of NoCode
International.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just stating facts.

And now some puzzle pieces fit together. I can now reconcile Carl's
vision of how leaders are supposed to lead and his organization. Strong
leadership, independent from member opinion, and if you don't like it,
you're out.

Jimmie isn't stating any "facts."


"Of whom are you speaking, old man?"

Right in NCI's bylaws it says that any member who publicly disagrees with their
stated position on code testing is subject to expulsion.

Fact or fiction?

They also require that all members agree to their prime directive goal as a
condition of membership.

Fact or fiction?

No one who disagrees with their core policy can be a member of NoCode
International.

Fact or fiction?

And yet....... while expulsion can be obtained so easily in one matter,
there is an extreme amount of slack granted for "unofficial" positions
on other matters regarding amateur radio! Why doesn't NCI have a
position on anything else?


He is simply manufacturing an
argument for the sake of something to argue about. SOP for Jimmie.


"I tell it like it is. You are just another arrogant control-freak wanting
others to be subservient to your viewpoints. You can't accept a damn thing if
it isn't in line with your holy opinions."



[he seems to need something, anything, to argue about every day]


"Reality points to the fact that you CANNOT accept any opinions contrary to
your own with grace or gentle manner...you constantly, belligerently go after
any person who can stand up to you and show where your ideas aren't valid."


No Code International is most of all a political special interest group.
It asks for no dues, does not demand a license of any kind in order
to belong.


But it does require absolute allegiance to its prime directive of eliminating
all code testing. No disagreement or dissent allowed, under penalty of
expulsion.

Unlike the ARRL...which IS a dues-asking, amateur license required,
membership organization and political special interest group and a
publishing business, NCI does not pretend to represent "all" amateurs.


NCI says that it knows what is best for the future of amateur radio.

ARRL pretends to "represent all amateurs"


Where does it claim that? Show us an exact quote.


yet they still haven't
gotten close to a majority of all licensed U.S. amateurs to belong
to them. They've not been able to do that for years past.


The exact size of either organization is unknown, but from all davailable data
it is clear that ARRL, despite dues and annual renewals, is at least 30 times
the size of NCI.

ARRL accepts for membership those who disagree with and want to change their
policies. NCI does not.

There has been an amateur license available in the USA without any code test
for almost 13 years now. ARRL membership voting rights are the same regardless
of license class.

ARRL refuses to take a stand on code testing in the USA yet the
International Amateur Radio Union long ago came out for eliminating
the code test internationally.


"Strange words. According to the FCC, not to mention a couple of Acts of
Congress (one in 1934, another in 1996), only the FCC created the class of the
(no-code-test) Technician license. Not the US Congress. Not the ITU."


Once that happens, NCI has stated
that it will dissolve, cease to exist as a special interest entity.


Perhaps it will, perhaps it won't.

Maybe this is the point for another poll, Jim?


It seems you want ARRL to dissolve, cease to exist. You accept the organization
that does not allow dissent, and reject the organization that accepts and
allows dissent. Why?

NCI is a very small group,


What is its exact membership?

Always growing!


has no law firm on retainer in DC,


"Oh, my, were you admitted to a bar this afternoon and thought you had become a
legal beagle? Arf, arf?"


nor
does it have another group on retainer to lobby the FCC.


Why would that be needed for a single issue?


ARRL does.
NCI directors get out and personally lobby for action on elimination
of code testing, including all the way to Geneva and WRC-03...and
not on a multi-million annual budget available to the ARRL.


WK3C was at Geneva for reasons other than S25.5. His way was paid for by his
employer. He has stated that right here in this newsgroup. He did not go on his
own nickel, or NCI's.

"I'd like to see YOU address the FCC in the same manner as you address others."

Snarf!!!! 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

And yet....... while expulsion can be obtained so easily in one matter,

there is an extreme amount of slack granted for "unofficial" positions
on other matters regarding amateur radio! Why doesn't NCI have a
position on anything else?

Because it's a one-purpose organization.

Some years back, there was a petition by a VHF group to change the rules
slightly. As you know, the lowest 100 kHz of 6 and 2 meters are CW only, and
the rest of amateur VHF/UHF allows all authorized modes everywhere.

Folks in that and other VHF/UHF groups are "weak signal" fans, and had noticed
increased QRM from local FM simplex folks. They'd be trying to work some SSB DX
on, say, 144.200 and would find themselves buried by local FM simplex ops who
had simply dropped down there from a repeater. Note that the typical ham FM
signal is maybe 5-6 times wider than an SSB signal and you'll begin to see the
problem.

So the VHF group proposed eliminating the CW-only 100 kHz, and instead setting
up the lowest 300 kHz of 6 and 2, plus about the same amount just above 432
MHz, as "narrow band preserves" - no modes wider than 3 kHz allowed.

NCI wrote a strongly worded opposition to that proposal. The rallying cry was
"no setasides for legacy modes!!" (SSB is a "legacy mode").

Now of course anyone can comment to FCC. And there can be an honest
disagreement about subbands-by-mode. But it was really odd - N0BK would say
surreal - to see such comments by a one-purpose group on a subject that had
absolutely nothing to do with code testing, and which involved bands completely
open to Technicians.

After having this discrepancy pointed out, NCI took more of a one-purpose
stance, and has not gotten involved in any issues other than "drop Element 1"

He is simply manufacturing an

Once that happens, NCI has stated
that it will dissolve, cease to exist as a special interest entity.


Perhaps it will, perhaps it won't.

Maybe this is the point for another poll, Jim?

To what purpose? ;-)

What is its exact membership?

Always growing!

Of course!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article ,
(Brian) writes:

Dave Heil wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , "Kim W5TIT"

writes:

Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/


pssssst, I think Len is superior at pulling Dave's strings...

Shhhh...don't tell anybody... :-) :-) :-)

Is this the part where you make me one of your playthings or have me
fall into one of your carefully laid snares, Len?

And he has arrived. Congratulations Dave.

...told ya. :-)

This one ranks right up there with one of those non-replies you've sent
out when there's been a snafu in the Anderson home comm center. You're
quite the diabolical mastermind.

Dave K8MN

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Brian wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message
...
Brian wrote:

(N2EY) wrote in message
.com...


Len, like any Americans who've shown an interest in the ARS, have a
disincentive. It is the Morse requirement for HF access.

Your claim might ring true if Len had bothered to obtain a code-free
ticket at some point. He hasn't.

Of whom are you speaking, old man?

Your name is Len, isn't it, grizzled older man?

I've had HF access several times in the last half century, all legal,
all involving actual communications. No amateur license was
required at any time. No morse skill needed whatsoever.

Your memory must be failing in your dotage. Amateur radio is the topic.

It is?!?!?

I thought it was all about vehicle codes under the subject heading
of "Is Michael Jackson Innocent."

Why would you comment about having had HF access several times in the
past half century to someone's post concerning Michael Jackson? That
wouldn't make sense.

I thought it was all about national economy, presidential politics,
the antics of State, and general subjects that must be dear to
hamhearts everywhere that do NOT touch on amateur radio in
all those other threads.

Why would you insert comments concerning having HF access several times
in the past half century to posts about the national economy,
presidential politics, the Department of State and such? That wouldn't
make sense.

Your HF access of the past isn't an issue this time around.

Neither is the HF access I had from a Ventura marina a few
months ago...again (for at least the 5th time) without requiring
any amateur radio license or knowing morse code.

See, you're oscillator is drifting again. Your HF operation from a
marina had nothing to do with amateur radio, did it? Why did you think
those here would be interested? You seem to have a one-track mind.

The discussion should be about the federal regulations for an amateur
radio license regulation, not the individual "motivations" of any
aspirant to an avocational radio activity.

Maybe you feel that's what it should be about....but it isn't.

It seems to be about ANYTHING EXCEPT amateur radio. It seems
to be all about Kolonel Klunk wanting retribution for some imaginary
wrongs done to his psyche in here.

It does? Do you mean those exchanges where you knew more about State
Department embassy communications operations, practices and objectives
than those who were actually employed to do the work? Do you mean your
antics regarding Key Officers Lists? You came off looking as silly in
those as you do in attempting to set the agenda for amateur radio ops.

You constantly insist on personalizing everything about those who do
not share your holy and illustrious viewpoints.

I neither do it constantly nor with all others. You personalize many
discussions here. How do you explain that away?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Yes, I copy down the screen name of the individual
I am replying to...call that "personalizing?" :-)

I call it an example of your dodging a question because a truthful
answer would have embarrassed you.

That is your problem
and you continually foul this newsgroup with arrogant remarks against
the person of those of opposite opinions. Not my problem but
certainly yours in attitude.

It doesn't seem to be a problem for me, Len. At the moment, judging
from your reply, it is one for you. Deal with it.

I did already. You got what you deserve. Be happy with that.

Amateur radio is supposed to be a recreation, a fun activity involving
radio, licensing required only because of physics of EM waves and
federal regulation.

It is all of that and more, old gent.

Yes, to you. To you, amateur radio is a wondrous experience where
you may have title, rank, privileges beyond your wildest dreams, of
doing things that mundane professionals could never do by constantly
recreating the past in the future and pioneering the HF airways. It is
your Lifestyle.

Yes, to me. That's because I am a licensed radio amateur. It is
obviously less than that to you. You aren't a licensed radio amateur.

Ho hum.

You can feign boredom. If amateur radio bores you, why do you persist
in haunting a newsgroup which discusses amateur radio?

Instead, you've turned it into a battleground of
your own, arrogantly demanding adherence to your personal view-
points.

No, I've not turned amateur radio into any battlegrounds nor did I note
your presence on any of the ham bands this past week.

Is it now a requirement to "have presence" on ham bands in order
to even speak of amateur radio?

You've spoken of amateur radio here but you are unable to participate in
amateur radio. you said I've turned amateur radio into a battleground.
I haven't. You know nothing of what I do, have done or am likely to do
in, for or about amateur radio except for what you can glean here or
from a number of web pages.

Is the FCC requiring all Wireless Bureau staffers to have amateur
radio licenses in order to regulate U.S. amateur radio?

That matters not at all. You aren't one of them.

You join several others in here in so doing, some past, some
present. That's counter to the original purpose of "the service," isn't
it? Or is it?

Are you confusing amateur radio with this newsgroup? Is it your opinion
that I'm required to quietly accept your guff?

If I have to "accept" your guff, then you have to accept mine.

That is pretty evident. I'll continue to point out that you have no
stake in amateur radio. You're a bystander.

YOU deal with it. [in your own quaint SS manner, of course]

Well, Foghorn Lenhorn, it pains me to no end that you've again resorted
to your usual tactics.

Perhaps you embody modern amateur radio, a constant striving for
leading the pack in competitive activity? A competition complete
with taunts and jibes and outright insults against those who
"challenge" your arrogant expertise? If so, there is no wonder that
amateur radio has not increased in number commensurate with
the growth in population.

Well, old chap, it looks as if you're wrong in your assumptions yet
again.

No, old chop, I don't "assume" anything. I tell it like it is.

You'd first have to *know* how it is. You plainly don't know.

You are
just another arrogant control-freak wanting others to be subservient
to your viewpoints. You can't accept a damn thing if it isn't in line
with your holy opinions.

The statement above is more likely to be true of:

1) one who has been a licensed radio amateur for four decades,
interested in the well-being of the service?

or

2) one who has never been a radio amateur but who claims that his ideas
for amateur radio licensing are the right way?

It is a cinch that you don't embody any of amateur radio--past,
present or future.

Absolutely TRUE. I've been a professional for over a half
century.

Spiffy! Be as professional as you like. You're still on the outside of
amateur radio.

Herr Robust must think that professionals are not required to have
any recreation. Is it that way in your SS?

Watch TV. Play Canasta. Listen to a scanner. Take a drive in the
countryside. You professionals need all the recreation you can get.

of which you accuse others. You are--what is it you call
it?..."beligerant" toward radio amateurs who tire of your tales of life
at ADA a half century ago.

So...if the U.S. Army hasn't been using OOK CW on HF for six
decades, that is "tiring?"

C-O-M-P-R-E-H-E-N-S-I-O-N. Noooooo, you tales of it are tiring. Your
belligerence toward radio amateurs is tiring.

You must not be tired. You must be in coma. You are not
conscious of anything that has happened in the last six decades.

Because I'm not up to date on what happened at ADA fifty years ago? I
can't quite remember the full six decades, Len. Then again, I'm not
quite 55.

Enjoy your little clique of morse code uber alles in amateur radio
where the "bands" are only on HF. Feel superior that you've met all
the criteria and standards established by long-gone amateurs of past
times. You are important, superior, vital, and that is all that
matters.

I enjoy morse code, SSB, FM, RTTY, Pactor and several other modes on MW,
HF, VHF and UHF. My "little clique" numbers hundreds of thousands in
this country alone. I haven't noted your presence.

You wouldn't note anything. All you can see is your own glorious,
glowing presence radiating back at you.

But I *have* noted it, Len. I've been a part of it. You haven't.

No problem. YOUR presence hasn't been noted in any professional
writings or periodicals.

Do you subscribe to all professional writings and periodicals?

You should be demanding that ALL test for high rates of morse in
order to become fully FDA licensed as a ham. Condemn all those
who cannot learn, will not learn, nor share your opinions.

Morse or no morse, consider yourself condemned.

"Condemned" only to calling an asshole an asshole.

Do you use a cellphone to communicate with your opposite end?

Not very holiday-like but it is true.

I don't see you a very "holiday-like" kind of guy, Len.

May Santa bring you an irrepairable intermittent in your favorite HF
transceiver along with a truckload of dusty, high-sulphur-content
coal in your stocking. Merry Christmas.

Do you really know of any irrepairable intermittents?

Yourself.

....and you think I'm an HF transceiver?

Dave K8MN

Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Brian wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:

...written by many of the beligerant...

"belligerent"

...as long as such beligerance remains rooted

"belligerence"

Dave K8MN

Dave, once again, takes the honors at the national spelling bee,
beating out 9 year old Mary Caldwell, who ran off-stage in tears.

Actually, I took top honors from seventy-year-old Leonard "Atila"
Anderson, a PROFESSIONAL writer.

You couldn't take "top honors" on a toy top.

It looks as if you lost the spelling bee, Leonard.

I've been a professional writer (accepting monetary compensation
for writing work performed) since 1968.

You'd likely receive a higher rate if you could spell.

The age is 71, not 70.

Cheer up. You could still have a little time as a radio amateur if you
could just overcome that intertia.

Too bad you'll never make that age...

Statistics say I'm likely to do so. Do you know more about me than you
do about amateur radio?

Dave K8MN