"Robert Casey" wrote in message
...


Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a
desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get
it.

Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work
requested. You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the
car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the
edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities.
The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably
doesn't
care to do but does it anyway to get the reward.

SOme kids and others may decide that the reward is not worth the trouble
and time needed to do the required chore. If it's an option, vs having
to take some stupid class in HS or college because some curriculum
committee decided that it was necessary. Not graduating is not
a desirable option. I had to take 3 years of Spanish class in HS, but
as I don't own a landscaping company, it was a waste of time. :-)
Japanese would have been a better choice, but they didn't have it.
Some kids may feel that they are saddled with non-optional requirements
may decide to edit out of their lives any optional requirements and
forgo the ham license or similar.


If the resulting "reward" isn't worth the effort, then the person doesn't
really want it bad enough and won't be much of an asset anyway. Shear
numbers really don't help in any activity.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Robert Casey
writes:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected
from
applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to
operate on 14.167 vs 14.344?

More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in
large
part because it's easy to enforce.

Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a
desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it.

Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work
requested. You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the
car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the
edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities.

Actually, there is a relationship - or connection might be a better word.


Connection would be the better term I think since the activities are
unrelated in what they are.

You're right that driving a car doesn't require lawn-mowing skills or
accomplishments.

But in the case cited above, Kid is part of the family. In order to use
the
family's resources (the car, which Parents bought and paid for) Kid has to
contribute something - in the cited case, the lawn care. The relationship
between the car use and the lawn care is one of responsibility and being
part
of a group.


Excellent. We can apply that similar logic to amateur radio requirements.
The spectrum is a public resource. The prospective ham needs to demonstrate
that he has the potential to be a contributor. This is accomplished by the
testing process. The connection is then similar: demonstrating the
potential for responsibility and being part of a larger group. Notice that
I tag it as potential since there will always be a few who are willing to
put in the effort but then end up being problems.

Have you ever seen a family where the kids are given everything they want
but
not required to contribute anything? Ever see what sort of adults those
kids
become?

73 de Jim, N2EY



The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably
doesn't
care to do but does it anyway to get the reward.


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

In article , Len Over 21 wrote:

AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse
operators" for any national need. The nation does NOT need morse
operators, haven't for a long time.

That's an intresting point. 9/11 showed the need still exists for
experienced radio operators who can communicate under pressure.
Morde code is no longer necessary, but a clear voice, understanding
a phonetic alphabet, etc is.

Having a pool of responsable well trained and practiced radio operators
is still needed. They get that training on VHF/UHF repeaters, not operating
morse on HF or contests, etc.

Skills leared from contests are helpful, such as being able to dig a specific
signal out of the QRM and noise, etc, but the majority of operators don't
need it.

Just face the reality of the matter. Morsemen got their little CW
playground and should be happy. Professional communicators they
ain't, even if they want, desperately, to be oh, so very pro.

That's about it. If they want to keep morse active, they should encourage it,
not discourage it. How many hams are on the air that say that they learned
morse code for the license and haven't used it since?

I never thought I'd say that about myself, but unfortuntely it is true.
I've tried to get my speed back up to something reasonable and expect
that it would take an hour a day for at least a month.

Peopl who work 9-5 5 days a week may actualy be able to do it. I don't
(more like noon (or eariler) to 3am).

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, C.T.O. GW&T Ltd., Jerusalem Israel

IL Voice: 972-544-608-069 IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: "Henry Code Pro"
Date: 7/15/2004 7:39 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


"Hans K0HB" wrote in message
. com...

1) The operator will not (consciously or unconsciously) attempt to
anticipate the word being sent, thus will not get 'flummoxed' when the
expected word is incorrect (for example hearing 't h e s' he might
expect the word to be "these" and transcribe it that way, only to have
it turn out to be "thespian", causing him to drop out of his "zone" to
fix the error, perhaps missing the following word.

2) If the operator is not trying to 'understand' the message being
copied, the mechanics of copying become more 'automatic' with (as one
old telegrapher described to me) a mode in which "the message follows
a short circuit between the eardrum and the fingertips without passing
through the brain". From this mode come the (true) tales of operators
who could seemingly "multi-task" copying Morse at a subcounscious
level, and carry on other activitives like carry on a conversation,
retune the receiver, or read a book at the same time.

73, de Hans, K0HB

BULL****!

A nickle says Lennie the Lame found yet another anonymous server to hide
behind.

If not, it's someone he's slept with.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Geoffrey S. Mendelson)
Date: 7/15/2004 10:16 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article , Len Over 21 wrote:

AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse
operators" for any national need. The nation does NOT need morse
operators, haven't for a long time.

That's an intresting point. 9/11 showed the need still exists for
experienced radio operators who can communicate under pressure.
Morde code is no longer necessary, but a clear voice, understanding
a phonetic alphabet, etc is.

Geoffrey, you'll notice Lennie interjected "morse" operators, although he
does take great liberties with trying to discredit Amatueur Radio at any
opportunity.

Additionally he was in error that stating that "Amateur radio long ago
ceased to be a "pool of experienced morse operators" for any national need."

Indeed Amateur Radio is the ONLY pool of Morse capable radio operators
remaining, the very small contingent of military and SIGINT operators not
withstanding.

Having a pool of responsable well trained and practiced radio operators
is still needed. They get that training on VHF/UHF repeaters, not operating
morse on HF or contests, etc.

That's why they are spending tons of bucks on the Emergency Communicators
course. Also, here in Tennessee, funds were allocated to equip EVERY hospital
in Tennessee with at least one VHF/UHF and one HF transceiver, along with funds
to get folks qualified to use them. I don't know if that program is a TN-only
program or not.

Skills leared from contests are helpful, such as being able to dig a specific
signal out of the QRM and noise, etc, but the majority of operators don't
need it.

And as much as being able to pull "the weak ones" out is a plus, ACCURACY
is more important...That's why contests ding you if you miscopy an exchange.
Those skills are collateral benefits to emergency communications...Lennie's
uninformed opinion and ranting to the contrary.

Just face the reality of the matter. Morsemen got their little CW
playground and should be happy. Professional communicators they
ain't, even if they want, desperately, to be oh, so very pro.

That's about it. If they want to keep morse active, they should encourage it,
not discourage it. How many hams are on the air that say that they learned
morse code for the license and haven't used it since?

If what Lennie is is being "pro", then I dare say we should take some
EXTRA pride in NOT being "pro" ! ! ! !

Len Anderson has absolutely ZERO experience in emergency communications,
save for what he cuts-and-pastes about CA's ACS system and MARS. No experience
as an Amateur operator, none in any capacity with any civil or federal program.
He is not a licensed Amateur, nor is he in any other program affilitated with
emergency communications, MARS included.

I never thought I'd say that about myself, but unfortuntely it is true.
I've tried to get my speed back up to something reasonable and expect
that it would take an hour a day for at least a month.

In regards to emergency uses, Geoffrey, it's irrelevent. It's nice to
have, especially for health and welfare trafficing, but otherwise not
necessary.

People who work 9-5 5 days a week may actually be able to do it. I don't
(more like noon (or eariler) to 3am).

Sure you can! Just one or two QSO's a day will get your speed up in no
time, regadless of when you work! I work 7P to 7A three to five days a week,
and I am able to KEEP my speed above 20WPM with little effort.

73

Steve, K4YZ

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article , Robert Casey
writes:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from
applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to
operate on 14.167 vs 14.344?

More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large
part
because it's easy to enforce.

Nonsense for the new millennium.

That's what you're giving us, Len!

The separate, elite morsemen-only portions of the ham bands were
put there by old morsemen who were able to influence League
lobbying.

Len, what are "morsemen"?

And if you're talking about how the bands got carved up into Extra-only,
Advanced-and-Extra-only, and General-and-above subbands, that wasn't an ARRL
idea at all. It came from elsewhere.

What is this "easy to enforce" nonsense?

It's not nonsense at all, Len.

The FCC reads morse
easier than it can voice? [I don't think so] Can the FCC DF on
OOK-CW signals "easier" than voice signals? [I don't think so]

The easy to enforce *fact* is that it's simple to check the frequency of a
signal against the license class. It's not nearly so easy to verify things like
power level.

All of the morsemen's propaganda is just spin to keep their little
morse playground. No more, no less.

What are you talking about, Len?

The only Morse-code-only segments of US amateur radio are the lowest 100 kHz of
6 and 2 meters. Open to all hams except Novices.

You will be angry and disturbed at such direct language, but, like
Ernestine's creator put it..."plbthththt...and that's the absolute
truth." :-)

And it's as true as what Ernestine says. IOW, what you wrote is absolute
nonsense, Len, and the historical records prove it.

Besides, why do you want to live in the past so much? Since 1990 it has been
possible to get any class of US ham license with just a 5 wpm code test and a
medical waiver. Since 2000, the only Morse code test left has been the 5 wpm
test.

Here's a challenge for ya, Len:

Tell us, in brief and clear terms, without your usual level of insults, exactly
what *you* think the US amateur license requirements and privileges should be.
We already know you don't like the code test so that issue is clear.

But what about the rest? How many license classes? Subbands by mode, license
class, power? What sort of written exams? Other requirements?

Let's see what *you* would enact if you could.

Or are you only interested in nonsense?

You're right that driving a car doesn't require lawn-mowing skills or
accomplishments.

But in the case cited above, Kid is part of the family. In order to use the
family's resources (the car, which Parents bought and paid for) Kid has to
contribute something - in the cited case, the lawn care. The relationship
between the car use and the lawn care is one of responsibility and being part
of a group.


I suspect that many kids see a disparity between their education
(like Physics class, algebra class, and such) and the kind of
paying minimum wage jobs they can get (flipping burgers, stocking
supermarket shelves) and may conclude that school work doesn't
really apply to anything in the real working world. And see no
real reason to graduate other than a vague argument that school
is "good for you". I've told kids to stick it out, and that
you will get your payoff later on (in the form of better paying jobs).
And that stuff like English class is actually valuable (you need to
be able to write well so your boss understands what you are doing
so he thinks that you should get a raise and/or not get laid off).
The subject matter in English class may be stupid, but it's just
what the English teacher knows about (Shakespeare plays and such).
History class is not that important; I got thru life without
knowing about King Louie the VII. Get the C and be done with it.

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: "Kelley James"
Date: 7/15/2004 1:02 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


"Steve Robeson K4CAP" wrote in message
...


Indeed Amateur Radio is the ONLY pool of Morse capable radio
operators
remaining, the very small contingent of military and SIGINT operators not
withstanding.



Tell me more about military and SIGINT operators.

What's to tell?

The Army still trains AD personnel from all services in Morse Code in
Arizona. This can be verified via independent sources so I will leave you to
it.

Of course Lennie willl jump in and tell us "IT"S FOR RECEIVE ONLY ! ! ! !"

Uh huh.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 7/15/2004 11:44 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

Nonsense for the new millennium.

That's what you're giving us, Len!

Of course it is.

Without any practical experience in Amatuer Radio, how could he render an
INFORMED opinon on ANYthing having to do with Amateur Radio...???

The separate, elite morsemen-only portions of the ham bands were
put there by old morsemen who were able to influence League
lobbying.

Len, what are "morsemen"?

Anything and everything he's not.

Reminds me of the TV evangilist who was always hollering about the
immorality of the flesh, then got caught renting it!

And if you're talking about how the bands got carved up into Extra-only,
Advanced-and-Extra-only, and General-and-above subbands, that wasn't an ARRL
idea at all. It came from elsewhere.

Don't confuse him with the truth, Jim.

What is this "easy to enforce" nonsense?

It's not nonsense at all, Len.

The FCC reads morse
easier than it can voice? [I don't think so] Can the FCC DF on
OOK-CW signals "easier" than voice signals? [I don't think so]

The easy to enforce *fact* is that it's simple to check the frequency of a
signal against the license class. It's not nearly so easy to verify things
like
power level.

All of the morsemen's propaganda is just spin to keep their little
morse playground. No more, no less.

What are you talking about, Len?

The propaganda is coming from the Loser on Lanark.

The only Morse-code-only segments of US amateur radio are the lowest 100 kHz
of
6 and 2 meters. Open to all hams except Novices.

More facts to choke on, Jim.

You will be angry and disturbed at such direct language, but, like
Ernestine's creator put it..."plbthththt...and that's the absolute
truth." :-)

And it's as true as what Ernestine says. IOW, what you wrote is absolute
nonsense, Len, and the historical records prove it.

As always.

Besides, why do you want to live in the past so much? Since 1990 it has been
possible to get any class of US ham license with just a 5 wpm code test and a
medical waiver. Since 2000, the only Morse code test left has been the 5 wpm
test.

I don't think Lennie's diagnosis of ACRI (*) counts for Amateur testing
waiver purposes, Jim.

Here's a challenge for ya, Len:

Tell us, in brief and clear terms, without your usual level of insults,
exactly
what *you* think the US amateur license requirements and privileges should
be.
We already know you don't like the code test so that issue is clear.

But what about the rest? How many license classes? Subbands by mode, license
class, power? What sort of written exams? Other requirements?

Yeah...let's get another dose of that age limit thing, and please include
some FCC statistics on age-vs-infraction occurences...Better yet, let's see
some of your credentials on child rearing and development that support your
assertion for the need of an age limit.

Let's see what *you* would enact if you could.

He'd just take an eraser to the whole thing.

Or are you only interested in nonsense?

My bet's on the nonsense. That's all he's produced here.

73

Steve, K4YZ

(*) Acute Cranial Rectal Inversion

On 15 Jul 2004 16:09:57 GMT, Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:

That's why they are spending tons of bucks on the Emergency
Communicators course. Also, here in Tennessee, funds were allocated
to equip EVERY hospital in Tennessee with at least one VHF/UHF and one
HF transceiver, along with funds to get folks qualified to use them. I
don't know if that program is a TN-only program or not.

It's in the new nationwide JACO (Hospital Joint Accreditation
Committee) standards. That's how I got co-opted from the county
RACES/AREC program into the Providence St. Vincent Hospital (former
Catholic Charities Hospital) Disaster Communications Team although I
am neither Catholic nor Charitable.

We were lucky that we had two nurses who were hams before this
project started, and that the hospital administration has been very
generous in putting its hand into its pocket and coming up with
funds whenever we needed them. Five dual-band and two tri-band
VHF/UHF radios, three TNCs, two recycled laptop computers......we're
the packet node for the inter-hospital and RACES/AREC packet network
plus three voice circuits (two to the county and one regional
inter-hospital), plus SSTV which the administrators use to transfer
status diagrams between hospitals. We back up the regional and
local 800 MHz systems totally.

Our next quarterly exercise will involve relocation of the EOC (and
the radio equipment) from its primary position to a backup site
across the campus while the exercise is running. That ought to be
fun.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon