(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 7/15/2004 8:41 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Stevie
Stalker, Ethnic Cleanser of Olde Tyme Hamme Raddio) writes:

A nickle says Lennie the Lame found yet another anonymous server to
hide
behind.

If not, it's someone he's slept with.

Poor Stalker making LIES again. Tsk, tsk.

Not a lie, Lennie...A bet.

With whom? One of your other personalities?

Poor obsessed, delusional nursie. Can't imagine that anyone
else doesn't like the Stalking Mighty Macho Morseman. Thinks
all who say negative to nursie are all pseudonyms of me.

That's nutso-ville. Aberrant delusional psychosis. Whacko-land.

Yep. He have Big Drama in head.

Poor nursie would snit iffen he ever discovered there's NO Internet
out there...his computer is making all this up!!! :-)

Beep, beep.

LHA / WMD

dit, dit.

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]
The important question is, who is the best judge of what the requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?


That is the very crux of the problem. Somehow too many have lost sight of
the fact that those with experience should be the ones to define the
requirements.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:


More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large
part
because it's easy to enforce.

Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a
desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it.

Utter nonsense, Mama Dee. Spin-like rationalization.

That's a good description of what you post here, Len ;-) ;-) ;-)

Only to the PCTA.

Nope. To anyone who knows the facts.

Dee regurges so much pathertic ARRL-speak it just can't read her
anymore.

AMATEUR radio is a hobby, not a national service, not an arm of the
United States Navy or the rest of the military, and not a public safety
organization. Just a hobby involving radio.

It's not "just a hobby".

For some it IS a lifestyle. Their problem, not the governments.

Why is it a "problem"?

The government doesn't view amateur radio as an alternative lifestyle.
There are no bill in Congress trying for a Constitutional Amendment.
Practicioners of amateur radio will just have to deal with it, that
is, if they view it as an alternative lifestyle.

So, amateur radio is NOT a hobby?

It's not *just* a hobby.

Would you tell volunteer firefighters and EMTs that what they do is "just a
hobby"?

Different things. And they get paid for each run. Only repeaters
owners get paid in amateur radio.

Prove its vital need to the nation as a national service or an arm of
the military or a public safety organization.

Why? Is that the criteria for something to be more than "just a hobby"?

Part of Basis and Purpose justification for being.

The FCC hasn't proved that. Only the ham-lifestylers try to prove
that. They NEED the rationalization.

So what's your problem?

The problem is all the lifestylers that yak and yak, copy field day
messages prior to the start of field day, and paying lip service to
being a national asset, but couldn't NCS their way out of a wet paper
bag.

But even if it were, what's the difference? If something is "just a hobby",
does that mean there should be no standards, no training, no rules?

Tsk, tsk. Arguing to extemes again?

No. Just asking a question.

What should the standards be?

See Part 97, minus the Morse Code exam.

The FCC isn't chartered to do "training" for radio hams.

Actually, it is.

I've never been to an FCC training session. Would you mind mentoring
a junior amateur regarding the place, location, and times? Thanks in
advance.

The FCC doesn't really "set standards," only sets regulations.

Wrong again!

How many parts per million?

AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse
operators" for any national need.

The description never included the word "Morse", Len.

Then why is Morse so prominent in your thinking?

When did it cease, Len?

Long ago. :-)

When, exactly?

Long ago.

Find all the military morsemen "needs" you can. That be easy, as
there are no such needs.

Find all the commercial communications services you can, count
the "needs" for morsemen. Very few and those be on the Great
Lakes shipping.

What's your point, Len?

Do you agree that the nation needs a "Pool of trained radio operators"
which doesn't include Morse?

And here's a fun fact: The Basis and Purpose never used the phrase
"experienced
morse operators". Just "experienced operators" - no mention of modes.

The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time.

How long?

Long time. :-)

You don't know, then.

Not since the Coast Guard quit monitoring.

Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work
requested.

More spin crappola.

Well, at least you're honest about your content ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Tsk, tsk. Not nice.

No, you're not nice at all, Len. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

And you've gone over to the dark side. ;^)

Rather nasty comment for a portentious
revered one of the Great Gurus of the newsgrope.

Describing yourself, I see.

In kind.

lots of snit snipped

Just face the reality of the matter. Morsemen got their little CW
playground and should be happy.

What *are* you talking about, Len?

The LOWER parts of the HF bands.

You mean the parts where voice modes aren't allowed? Guess what - they're all
wide open for data modes, too. What's the problem?

Reilly says band plans are actionable. Do you now disagree with
Reilly, too?

You sure have been disagreeable of late.

Professional communicators they
ain't, even if they want, desperately, to be oh, so very pro.

If you're an example of "professional communicator", than I'm glad to be an
amateur.

You are NOT a professional communicator.

Never claimed to be.

Just don't forget it. You're just a guy who refuses to accept that
professional communicators know something about all of radio.

You're neither are a professional communicator nor an amateur radio operator,
Len. Just some guy who likes to flame amateur radio newsgroups.

Len is a professional. You just refuse to accept it. That makes you
wrong. That is all. And it won't be the first time.

You're on the outside looking in.

I'm on the inside, yet I see Len's point.

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


The exact process I used for getting my license was:

First I took an online test. First couple times did just awful. In both
General and Extra, I started out at about the 50 percent level.


That's really pretty good for a start, with no preparation.


Downloaded the question pool. Used it as reading material on the throne
and around the house. But mostly as a post-test reference


Did you highlight the right answers or black out the wrong ones?

Neither!

Continued taking the online tests. For every question I got wrong on
the tests, I researched out the answer. Sources were reference books and
the 'net.


Yep.

Continued until I scored 100 percent pretty consistently.


And the actual test was a breeze, right?

Wasn't too bad.


What you did was to 'study the test'. Which isn't "wrong" or illegal, despite
what some may rant about it. You did what worked for you, within the rules.

Here's the thing, Jim. I can still remember the right answers. So did I
learn the material?

Which do you *really* think requires more understanding of the mateiral and
the
concepts behind it - a test where you don't know the exact Q&A beforehand,
or one where you do?

All the same to me.

Really?


Well, as in the above comment, the method worked for me

And I think my method above says something more.
Being smart is not necessarily knowing something - it is knowing what
you know, knowing what you don't know, and knowing where to get the
answer so you *do* know.


Kinda like the difference between schooling and education.


If you make questions up, you have to have a
reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book
then. Is it a question pool? Fine also.

*If* you only care about right answers rather than understanding.

Not really. I saw a electrician licensing test book with question pool
recently. Lives depend on the electrician doing safe and proper work.
and they are depending on the Electrician knowing.


But someone cannot become a licensed electrician by written tests alone. There
are extensive practical tests and experience requirements as well, and several
levels of licensing. IIRC, here in PA it takes 9000 hours of documented work
experience under the supervision of a licensed electrician to be licensed at
the highest level.

Sure, but if you flunk the test, question pool and all, then you
aren't an electrician. 9000 hours of training aside.


Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and
Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time.



Depends on the person and the subject. In some areas, the only way to know
the
material is rote memorization. (How long is a ham license term?)

Of course, but that is diluting the issue. No other way to learn that
stuff.


The problem is that more and more of the test is becoming "that stuff".


And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time.

How? The test questions are all in the pool. Read the pool and you have
seen every possible question and answer.

All my tests have been from the question pool, so it is something I
have some advantage over many people here. Actual knowledge rather than
opinion.


I take a simulated test every so often just to maintain an even strain.


The answers are not always in the same order as they are in the pool. I
experienced this in my Extra test. And if the person knows the text of
the answer, they almost certainly *know* the answer. That takes a level
of understanding much greater than "This question's answer is "D"

How much different is that than reading a book?

Nobody with any sense memorizes the answer letters! But being able to know
which answer is right after having seen the exact Q&A several times before
doesn't guarantee any level of understanding.

For example, I could ask:

- Which of the following are blunatrons? (Flufnagles, zinthorps, calinars,
rhenotors)

A) Fluffnagles and rhenotors only
B) Zinthorps only
C) Calinars and zinthorps only
D) Calinars, zinthorps and fluffnagles

(Of course the correct answer is C)

Your not going to catch me in a trick question, Mr. Micollis! Zinthorps
only exist at a temperature of absolute zero, and even then it's only a
theory!..........

Now, if you remember that calinars and zinthorps are blunatrons but fluffnagles
and rhenotors aren't, you'll always get the question right. But do you really
understand anything about blunatrons?


Heck, download the pool as a Word or text document, edit out the wrong
answers,
print the questions up on 3x5 cards and just read the dern things while in
the room of many doors.

Remember the game "Trivial Pursuit"? When it was a big deal ~20 years ago,
I
used to carry a handful of the cards in my pocket and read them at odd
times
(on the subway, waiting for the elevator, etc.) Didn't consciously try to
memorize them, just read them. I was soon nearly unbeatable - as long as
the game used the Original edition cards.

The question pools have far fewer questions than the Trivial Pursuit cards
did.



A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers
in the test in the course of reading is cheating too



Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be
secret.


So...

The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions
have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to
be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the
state of the art in his/her admission test.


bwaaahaahaa



Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^)


(I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade
about the worthless new hams - again.)




Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away
does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying,
"You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap
reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....)

Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I
supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help
he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our
behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a
relative old timer. But its still irritating.


Well, he was just plain wrong. The test is just one part of being

qualified.

Of course. But sometimes we have to work with people that are just
plain wrong.


Yep.

Every once in a while, I'll mention something like "Hey, I resemble
that remark!"



There was an old song called "Patches" that you may recall from high school
days. Man is remembering how tough he had it as a kid. Among the folks I
grew up with, we still use the line

"And then the rains came, and washed all the crops away"

whenever somebody starts geezering.

hehe, I used to do a good rendition of the line after that - "And at
the age of thirteen, I felt I had the weight of the whooole world on my
shoulders" 8^)


"And Mama knew what I was going through..."

That's the one!

It's particularly effective when someone is going on and one about something
like how tough it was to find a parking space, or how long the line at
Starbucks was this morning,

That's how the Republican party got started isn't it? ;^)

and three people do it, one taking each line...



Besides, what it all comes down to is this:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented
reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better
than the pool based system.

Sure it would. But we're not going to go back to secret tests. Not gonna
happen - at least not anytime soon. Why get in a lather over it?



Thousands and thousands of college students
prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take
their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory,
to quickly fade after the test is over.

That only works for some people. And recall that for most of those
students, the cramming is not the only preparation done.


Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test
administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really*
have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe.



If the test administrator looks like Heidi Klum, or if I get to be *her*
test
administrator, I'll volunteer to put the system throuigh its paces. Heck,
I'll sign up for two weeks......

Hey, maybe my dum typo was Karma!


I've got dibs on Ms. Klum if she ever needs a ham radio instructor.

Nice lass. Can you believe I had to look her up on the web? Big problem
is the name. I keep thinking of the old story of "Heidi", although the
real one bears no resemblance!!

- Mike KB3EIA -

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Sucks to be you, Putz.

Tsk. The Stalker put away is Amateur Corps Class A uniform and the
recruiting posters for the United States Amateur Corps ("A few good men...")
and lapsed into his hate-filled snarliness mode.

I see a glimpse of humanity from Steve every few weeks. I like him
much better that way. I'll pray for him tonight.

Well, Stalker IS a representative of top-of-the-line amateur radio licensee.

Let's back away from that idea for a while. What? We've got maybe
four or five Extras on here who are congenital liars, spinmasters, or
just cranky old farts VS how many did Jim just post are in the ARS?

I don't think Steve and the others on here are representative of
top-of-the-line amateurs at all. As a matter of fact, I feel kind of
sorry for Jim. I think he's hung in here about a year too long. He
should have bailed before his lost his last remnant of dignity. His
post about "Morse Code Exams are a disincentive to CW use" really told
the tale. Since then he's gone over to the dark side and can't find
his way back. He's truly committed.

All the PCTA love him. He be Tuff and Loud. Yell-Yell alla time.

I think they only support him because they think they'll all hang
separately if they don't hang together. I can't imagine them actually
coming forwad to say they love him. Just another case of group-think.
So suprised when Jim first said Bruce might be brilliant (hi, hi),
then said he wasn't proper amateur material.

PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...

The important question is, who is the best judge of what the requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Jim, many experienced amateurs have spoken agains the continued use of
the Morse Code as a filter. You ignore them, or say they must be
wrong. Luckily, hams don't decide, necomer or otherwise. The FCC
does, and they see merit in the reasonable arguments put forth by
those experienced hams.

Best of Luck

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

Have you ever seen a family where the kids are given everything they want but
not required to contribute anything? Ever see what sort of adults those kids
become?

Six-year-old Novices and Nine-year-old Extras? :-)

LHA / WMD

August QST: Twelve year old Extra in Kentucky. And a shack to die for.

"William" wrote in message
om...
PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message
...

The important question is, who is the best judge of what the
requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Jim, many experienced amateurs have spoken agains the continued use of
the Morse Code as a filter. You ignore them, or say they must be
wrong. Luckily, hams don't decide, necomer or otherwise. The FCC
does, and they see merit in the reasonable arguments put forth by
those experienced hams.

Best of Luck

Please post the URLs of the surveys to back up your claim. How "many?" Is
it a majority or is it just a vocal minority?

So far the FCC has done nothing with the innumerable petitions nor have the
acted unilaterally to implement the change now allowed by the international
treaty. At this point it is premature to say that the FCC sees merit in
either side of the question.

Any intelligent person doesn't consider it a filter. It is simply a useful
element of ham radio that should be maintained. Some of the people against
using it as a filter are for keeping it as a part of the ham's required
knowledge.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: "Dee D. Flint"
Date: 7/17/2004 10:32 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]
The important question is, who is the best judge of what the requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?


That is the very crux of the problem. Somehow too many have lost sight of
the fact that those with experience should be the ones to define the
requirements.

But it also needs to be the RIGHT experience.

Lennie the Liar has a lot of "experience" in SOME radio matters, but
zero-point-zero percent of it is as an Amateur Radio licensee. Also
zero-point-zero experience in "emergency communications". His "traffic
handling" experience was as a radio clerk in the Army in the FIFTIES, and his
experience in practical avionics goes back to his days as a STUDENT (never
licensed) pilot back when Lear organ-grinder radios were the "state of the
art".

Would you want HIM making binding decisions for you in regards to Amateur
Radio policy?

When Lennie discusses matters of technical interest I sit up and pay
attention...but that's ALL people like him CAN talk about.

I know people like him in my professional life too...people who can
recite the textbooks and history annals inside and out...but don't have a valid
clue as to HOW to apply what they know. People like that are dangerous.

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (William)
Date: 7/17/2004 9:50 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve

Some in a position to know your "professional" services directly
quantify
your skills as "mediocre, at best..."

A LIE, nursie. Bald-faced, out and out LIE.

Lennie, you can keep repeating that until you die, but it will not make it
any less true.

Believe it or not, not everyone in your "profession" was enamored with
your knowledge and skill. They certainly weren't enamored with your
personality. Perhaps if you had stepped off of your self-grandizing pedestal
once in a while...?!?!

You don't know squat about the electronics industry or military
electronics or civilian electronics other than reading about ham
radio in QST. YOU DON'T KNOW.

I know more than you care to acknowledge, but that's OK by me.

Now YOU produce those NAMES of the "some" you ALLEGE
"know."

Nope. They spoke to me on assurance that I'd guard thier confidentiality.
That they were career engineers at NADC and had occassion to "know" you is
adequate enough.

You can't because they DON'T EXIST. They are a fermentation of
your hate-filled obsessional, delusional psychosis in here.

Again, you may continue to make that assertion over and over but it will
not make it true. There is nothing "hate-filled" or "obsessional" about having
taken the time to do some research on some of the references YOU provided. I
just lucked up on the right people.

Should have kept your mouth shut, Lennie. You set your own trap.

Get some mental therapy. From a real shrink.

You mean YOUR "evaluation" wasn't adequate...?!?! Your "experience" in
psychiatry is invalid...?!?! Say it isn't so!

It will help everyone, even yourself.

What would "help" here, Lennie, is if you would take it upon yourself to
act your age, stop making assertions and proclamations that are easy to prove
wrong, and actually DO the things you claim you are going to do.

Pbththththth.

My point is made. Thanks for doing it for me.

Len, he's a freak. Stay away. "Danger Will Robinson. Danger!"

And PuppetBoy chimes in...

Steve, K4YZ