N2EY asked what the rule authorization was for operation of an
amateur statsion on an expired license if renewal was made in a
timely manner.

Section 1.62(a) of the FCC Rules (not a Part 97 Rule) says:

§1.62 Operation pending action on renewal application.

(a)(1) Where there is pending before the Commission at the
time of expiration of license any proper and timely application
for renewal of license with respect to any activity of a
continuing nature, in accordance with the provisions of Section
9(b) of the Administrative Procedure Act, such license shall
continue in effect without further action by the Commission
until such time as the Commission shall make a final
determination with respect to the renewal application. No
operation by any licensee under this section shall be construed
as a finding by the Commission that the operation will serve
the public interest, convenience, or necessity, nor shall such
operation in any way affect or limit the action of the
Commission with respect to any pending application or
proceeding.

Lots of words for a simple concept.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

Phil Kane wrote:

N2EY asked what the rule authorization was for operation of an
amateur statsion on an expired license if renewal was made in a
timely manner.

Section 1.62(a) of the FCC Rules (not a Part 97 Rule) says:

§1.62 Operation pending action on renewal application.

(a)(1) Where there is pending before the Commission at the
time of expiration of license any proper and timely application
for renewal of license with respect to any activity of a
continuing nature, in accordance with the provisions of Section
9(b) of the Administrative Procedure Act, such license shall
continue in effect without further action by the Commission
until such time as the Commission shall make a final
determination with respect to the renewal application. No
operation by any licensee under this section shall be construed
as a finding by the Commission that the operation will serve
the public interest, convenience, or necessity, nor shall such
operation in any way affect or limit the action of the
Commission with respect to any pending application or
proceeding.

Lots of words for a simple concept.


My translation to English: If you send in the renewal
before your license's expiration date, you can continue
to use the privs of the license until the FCC says
that they ain't gonna renew it. I suppose the postmark
(back in the old days of paper snail mail) would determine
that you sent it before the license was to expire. One
probably should do a return receipt to show to the FCC
field guy that you did mail it and that they got it.
But that just says that you mailed *something*, not
that you sent the right form filled out right.

If you're late sending it in, you have to stay off
the air until you get the new license in teh mail
(or at least when you show in the FCC database as
having been renewed).

Yes?

robert casey wrote:
Phil Kane wrote:

N2EY asked what the rule authorization was for operation of an
amateur statsion on an expired license if renewal was made in a
timely manner.

Section 1.62(a) of the FCC Rules (not a Part 97 Rule) says:

=A71.62 Operation pending action on renewal application.

(a)(1) Where there is pending before the Commission at the
time of expiration of license any proper and timely
application
for renewal of license with respect to any activity of a
continuing nature, in accordance with the provisions of
Section
9(b) of the Administrative Procedure Act, such license shall
continue in effect without further action by the Commission
until such time as the Commission shall make a final
determination with respect to the renewal application. No
operation by any licensee under this section shall be
construed
as a finding by the Commission that the operation will serve
the public interest, convenience, or necessity, nor shall
such
operation in any way affect or limit the action of the
Commission with respect to any pending application or
proceeding.

Lots of words for a simple concept.

Thanks, Phil!

Seems to me that key words a

"proper and timely application for renewal of license"

"activity of a continuing nature, in accordance with the provisions of
Section 9(b) of the Administrative Procedure Act,"

Lots of room for interpretation there?

For example, if I mail in a renewal the day before expiration, is that
"timely"?

My translation to English: If you send in the renewal
before your license's expiration date, you can continue
to use the privs of the license until the FCC says
that they ain't gonna renew it. I suppose the postmark
(back in the old days of paper snail mail) would determine
that you sent it before the license was to expire.

See above about "timely".

One
probably should do a return receipt to show to the FCC
field guy that you did mail it and that they got it.
But that just says that you mailed *something*, not
that you sent the right form filled out right.

Exactly! And how does anyone know it's "proper" until the Commission
rules?

I bet the occasional old Form 610 still shows up at FCC Hq. for a
renewal.

If you're late sending it in, you have to stay off
the air until you get the new license in teh mail
(or at least when you show in the FCC database as
having been renewed).

Yes?

That's how I see it. But with online renewal and the database, you
don't need to wait for the mail.

But what is the interpretation of "activity of a continuing nature"?
Obviously a broadcaster or safety service transmitter that is on-air
24/7 would be covered. But most amateur operation is of an
intermittent, unscheduled, unprogrammed nature - would it be considered
"activity of a continuing nature" if the ham is on the air on an
irregular schedule?


--

So it appears that, in *some* cases (where a renewal application was
previously filed), a ham with an expired license may be able to operate
legally in the grace period.
But definitely not in all cases.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote in message
ups.com...


: So it appears that, in *some* cases (where a renewal
: application was previously filed), a ham with an expired
: license may be able to operate legally in the grace
: period.

After all the indignant and self-righteous heat you've applied to LenOver on
this issue, it appears you were equally ignorant of the content of Part
97.

97.21(a)(3)(ii) puts it this way:

"When the application has been received by the FCC
on or before the license expiration date, the license
operating authority is continued until the final disposition
of the application."

Been there in the rules for decades, and is commonly known among most people
who are even slightly conversant with Part 97.

Didn't you catch on to this when KV4FZ stayed on the air for years after
expiration while his renewal was being litigated?

Of course, Herb being an accomplished Morse operator, you'd probably cut him
more slack than you cut for LenOver (not that either deserves any).

M.A.N.
--
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord,
make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."
- Voltaire

wrote in message
ups.com...

: Lots of room for interpretation there?

Interpret this:

§97.21(a)(3)(ii)

"When the application has been received by the FCC
on or before the license expiration date, the license
operating authority is continued until the final disposition
of the application."

M.A.N.
--
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord,
make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."
- Voltaire

Mel A. Nomah wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

: So it appears that, in *some* cases (where a renewal
: application was previously filed), a ham with an expired
: license may be able to operate legally in the grace
: period.

After all the indignant and self-righteous heat you've applied to
LenOver on
this issue, it appears you were equally ignorant of the content of
Part
97.

What "indignant and self-righteous heat"?

Len claimed that *all* amateurs with expired licenses could *legally*
continue to operate in the grace period. Nothing about renewals being
filed, etc. I
simply pointed out that he was mistaken on that point - but he won't
admit it.

If a ham with an expired license followed Len's claim and operated with
an expired-but-in-the-grace-period license without a pending
pre-expiration renewal application, s/he'd be violating Part 97.

By comparison, after it was pointed out to me that the rules allow
continued operation if a renewal is filed, I amended my original
statements.

If a ham with an expired license followed my claim and did not operate
with
an expired-but-in-the-grace-period license, there would be no violation
of Part 97. If the ham had applied for renewal before expiration, s/he
would
miss out on operating when in fact it would be legal, but that's erring
on the
side of safety.

97.21(a)(3)(ii) puts it this way:

"When the application has been received by the FCC
on or before the license expiration date, the license
operating authority is continued until the final disposition
of the application."

Yes, it does. And that's why I amended my statement.

It could be argued that what 97.21(a) (3) (ii) says is that if
you renew before the expiration date, the license never really
expires in the first place.

Been there in the rules for decades, and is commonly known among most
people
who are even slightly conversant with Part 97.

So is the fact that hams *cannot* legally operate in the grace period
with an expired license if no renewal application has been filed. But
Len claims *all*
hams can legally operate in the grace period. That's simply not so. Yet
he
won't admit it.

Len gets very upset when someone like me points out his errors.

Didn't you catch on to this when KV4FZ stayed on the air for years
after
expiration while his renewal was being litigated?

Sure. But he applied for renewal long before the expiration date.

Of course, Herb being an accomplished Morse operator, you'd probably
cut him
more slack than you cut for LenOver (not that either deserves any).

Not at all - just the opposite. Herb, being a licensed amateur
operator, should
get *less* slack, because he should have known better.

Len's ignorance isn't the problem; it's his resistance to accepting his
mistakes and his attacks on those who point them out.
Thanks for clearing up that point about renewals.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:

So it appears that, in *some* cases (where a renewal application was
previously filed), a ham with an expired license may be able to operate
legally in the grace period.
But definitely not in all cases.

I would disagree somewhat.


An application for renewal of a license means that the license is not
expired as long as it is sent in on time.

Assuming that there is no reason for not granting a renewed license, it
will be granted, I hope I'm correct.

If you send your IRS forms in by April 15th, it is considered sending
them in on time, even though the IRS has not received them. Send it in
on April 16th, and you could have a problem. It is late.

Seems a pretty simple thing to me. Send in your renewal by the expiry
date of your license, and your license continues.

Send it in the day after the license expires, and the license remains
expired until they re-issue it.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mel A. Nomah wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...


: So it appears that, in *some* cases (where a renewal
: application was previously filed), a ham with an expired
: license may be able to operate legally in the grace
: period.

After all the indignant and self-righteous heat you've applied to LenOver on
this issue, it appears you were equally ignorant of the content of Part
97.

97.21(a)(3)(ii) puts it this way:

"When the application has been received by the FCC
on or before the license expiration date, the license
operating authority is continued until the final disposition
of the application."

Mel, we've been discussing this for a while after Leo brought it up
some days ago.

Until the F.C.C. can receive and grant renewals immediately from all
Hams, there will have to be such a rule. Otherwise they would have to
determine some time lag, say a week, and then tell you you have to
calculate the number of days in ten years minus 1 week. Remember it will
be different for many hams, because it depends on how many leap years
there have been since you got your ticket, and whether you got your
ticket before the leap day if you got the ticket during a leap year.

A lot easier to just say "Send your renewal in by the ten year expiry
date, and you're covered".

Been there in the rules for decades, and is commonly known among most people
who are even slightly conversant with Part 97.

Didn't you catch on to this when KV4FZ stayed on the air for years after
expiration while his renewal was being litigated?

That is an aberration, as the system is designed more for lawful users
than scofflaws.

Of course, Herb being an accomplished Morse operator, you'd probably cut him
more slack than you cut for LenOver (not that either deserves any).

- Mike KB3EIA -

wrote:
Mel A. Nomah wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

: So it appears that, in *some* cases (where a renewal
: application was previously filed), a ham with an expired
: license may be able to operate legally in the grace
: period.

After all the indignant and self-righteous heat you've applied to
LenOver on
this issue, it appears you were equally ignorant of the content
of
Part
97.

What "indignant and self-righteous heat"?

The usual.

Len claimed that *all* amateurs with expired licenses could *legally*
continue to operate in the grace period. Nothing about renewals being
filed, etc. I
simply pointed out that he was mistaken on that point - but he won't
admit it.

If a ham with an expired license followed Len's claim and operated
with
an expired-but-in-the-grace-period license without a pending
pre-expiration renewal application, s/he'd be violating Part 97.

By comparison, after it was pointed out to me that the rules allow
continued operation if a renewal is filed, I amended my original
statements.

At what point is anyone else allowed to amend their statements?

If a ham with an expired license followed my claim and did not
operate
with
an expired-but-in-the-grace-period license, there would be no
violation
of Part 97. If the ham had applied for renewal before expiration,
s/he
would
miss out on operating when in fact it would be legal, but that's
erring
on the
side of safety.

Sounds rather punitive.

97.21(a)(3)(ii) puts it this way:

"When the application has been received by the FCC
on or before the license expiration date, the license
operating authority is continued until the final disposition
of the application."

Yes, it does. And that's why I amended my statement.

Is this an admission that you were (gulp) wrong? 8(

It could be argued that what 97.21(a) (3) (ii) says is that if
you renew before the expiration date, the license never really
expires in the first place.

You are welcome to argue it, but please do so from the antenna mount.

Been there in the rules for decades, and is commonly known among
most
people
who are even slightly conversant with Part 97.

So is the fact that hams *cannot* legally operate in the grace period
with an expired license if no renewal application has been filed. But
Len claims *all*
hams can legally operate in the grace period. That's simply not so.
Yet
he
won't admit it.

(gulp)

Len gets very upset when someone like me points out his errors.

There are no others like you. You are unique. You are Miccolis.

Didn't you catch on to this when KV4FZ stayed on the air for years
after
expiration while his renewal was being litigated?

Sure. But he applied for renewal long before the expiration date.

And a renewal was granted on or about the expiration date?

Of course, Herb being an accomplished Morse operator, you'd
probably
cut him
more slack than you cut for LenOver (not that either deserves any).

Not at all - just the opposite.

Hi, hi!

Herb, being a licensed amateur
operator, should
get *less* slack, because he should have known better.

Less slack, more flak.

Just how much flak did you give KV4FZ???

None.

Len's ignorance isn't the problem;

Nor is it Jim's problem.

it's his resistance to accepting his
mistakes and his attacks on those who point them out.

Indeed.

Thanks for clearing up that point about renewals.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Mel's swell.

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Until the F.C.C. can receive and grant renewals immediately from all
Hams, there will have to be such a rule. Otherwise they would have to
determine some time lag, say a week, and then tell you you have to
calculate the number of days in ten years minus 1 week. Remember it will
be different for many hams, because it depends on how many leap years
there have been since you got your ticket, and whether you got your
ticket before the leap day if you got the ticket during a leap year.

Remember too that there's a 90 day limit in the other direction - if you send
in a renewal too early (more than 90 days before expiration) they send it back.


I'm not sure why that 90-day rule exists. For many years you could get
a simultaneous renewal whenever you modified. I was a ham for a long time
before I ever actually "renewed" because every upgrade and address change
resulted in a renewed license too.

Perhaps the vanity call system stopped the simultaneous renewals.

73 de Jim, N2EY