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#182
March 12th 05, 01:40 PM
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Dave Heil wrote:
wrote: Dave Heil wrote: wrote: wrote: From: Dave Heil who, blabbering away on an obvious Troll topic, scribbled on Thurs, Mar 10 2005 12:14 am: wrote: Dave Heil wrote: You forget his comments to FCC about things like an age requirement.... He wishes I'd forget about his comments on the minimum age requirement for radio amateurs. Tsk. So hard up for Personal Attack subjects that you pick something from my Comment to the FCC made SIX YEARS AGO? Wasn't done in here first... Why is it a "Personal Attack" to disagree with your comments, Len? It is also a personal attack when you quote something Len has written. It seems that anyhting other than complete agreement is considered a "Personal Attack" by Len. ...and personal attacks by Len are just his way of debating the issues, heh heh. That pretty much sums it up, along with the four behaviors listed on that website. Okay, I'll wait until you stop cheering for all the "mature, responsible" six-year-olds featured on the ARRL news as "world's youngest hams?" Riiiiight... mature and responsible ALL BY THEMSELVES! :-) You would forbid people more than twice as old from getting an amateur license, Len. Without any evidence. Len's posts on the subject indicate that he has problems with children having done something which he himself has not attained. Len has admitted he has a problem including children in what he considers an "adult" activity. Good thing for guys like us that no such rule has ever been seen as necessary by the FCC. Ever read the book "Radio Rescue"? True story: Back in the early 1920s, a young boy in New York City became the youngest ham in the country, being licensed at 10 or 11 years of age. He and his ham station were instrumental in emergency communications during a Florida hurricane - all before he was 14. Len would have forbid him from getting a license. Finland once had a rule where no one under 15 could obtain a license. They've since done away with it. Canada too, IIRC. btw, when cb required a license, there was an age requirement. I think it was 18, but it could have been 15 - I'm not 100% sure because I was never involved in cb. Yet that age requirement didn't help cb's problems... Perhaps Len wants amateur radio to be more like cb... How about the 9-year-old "extra?" A "mature, responsible, law-abiding" pre-teener? :-) Yes. Riiiiight...ALL of them wouldn't think of operating without parental supervision, would they? Uh-huh. Why should they need parental supervision to operate? FCC, the expert agency on US civil radio regulation, thinks they're qualified. My parents didn't supervise me or need to supervise me when I operated as a fourteen-year-old Novice. Did your parents ever supervise you, Jim? Not in my amateur radio operations. I was licensed at age 13, and was the first amateur radio operator in my family. But I was "in radio" a lot earlier, building receivers and such. In fact, the way I learned Morse Code was to build a simple receiver and code-practice oscillator from scavenged parts, and listen to hams use it on the air. Also sending with the oscillator and key. My Elmers were books. And that worked for you. I learned the code in the Boy Scouts and simply brushed up over several weeks. I was lucky enough to have mentors in two different towns. I moved before W8MN could administer the exam. W8MN arranged an introduction to two local Novices and the fellow who ran the local TV sales and service shop in my new town. Buzz Collins K8CFT then administered my Novice exam. Too cool! Back in 1948, a 9-year-old local girl passed the Class B exam. In front of the FCC examiner. Still licensed and active, too. You're writing of the late Jesse Bieberman's daughter? Yes. W3KT is a legend in these parts. I met him a few times, and the reputation is deserved. I knew W3KT and thought he was a super gent. Yep. Tsk. I've never pursued the matter with the FCC since 1999 but it seems some in here just can't let it go. Why should they? You have not admitted that age requirements for a ham license are a bad idea. He issued the comments to the Commission. He never followed it up with a retraction if he changed his mind. All indications (even those in this recent post) are that Len stills believes that licensing children is a bad thing. Agreed. Perhaps we should quote that post.... ...and I note that you have done so. What about his comments to the FCC regarding a minimum age for amateur radio licensing? Can you come up with them? Anyone can. Just go to fcc.gov, search ECFS, using as criteria Len's name and the proceeding number. Of course it's a scan of a *paper* submission, because Len couldn't figure out how to get ECFS to work for him back then. Most of the dozen-plus pages are a diatribe against Mike Deignan, which is interesting because Mike turned out to be a no-code-test person in his comments to FCC. The age thing is last in the document. It is curious that Len's comments were filed after the comment period but before the end of the reply comment period. That and the use of paper made it practically impossible for anyone to file reply comments to Len's filing before the deadline. They MUST bring it up again, time and time again as if this is the most hideous of gaffes, practically a felonious act against the noble, law- fearing amateurs who never, ever do anything wrong. I don't see it as the most hideous of gaffes, just one in a long string of gaffes. Just a bad idea. Let us also not forget that Len accused the VEs and ARRL of "very mild fraud" in connection with some preschoolers being licensed. He appears to claim that no child that young could possibly pass the tests. Yet he does not know any of the people involved. That isn't news though. Len has made a number of accusations about the ARRL being dishonest. He never back any of them up with a single fact. "Never defend your positions".... 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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#183
March 12th 05, 01:45 PM
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wrote: btw, when cb required a license, there was an age requirement. I think it was 18, but it could have been 15 - I'm not 100% sure because I was never involved in cb. Yet that age requirement didn't help cb's problems... It was because 18 is the "age of majority" for most legal purposes. A minor couldn't be held liable. Why it matters for CB and not for Amateur Radio is beyond me. Perhaps Len wants amateur radio to be more like cb... Perhaps because Len epitomizes CBers...?!?! 73 Steve, K4YZ |
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#184
March 12th 05, 02:32 PM
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"K4YZ" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: btw, when cb required a license, there was an age requirement. I think it was 18, but it could have been 15 - I'm not 100% sure because I was never involved in cb. Yet that age requirement didn't help cb's problems... It was because 18 is the "age of majority" for most legal purposes. A minor couldn't be held liable. Why it matters for CB and not for Amateur Radio is beyond me. I wonder if that is perhaps because ham radio goes back to a time when people were believed to be responsible at a younger age even though they may or may not have been able to sign contracts, etc. That was a time when completing the 8th grade was still considered sufficient for most people and they often then went to full time work rather than going on to more schooling. They were considered adults at least functionally if not legally. Even quite young children sometimes worked instead of going to school. On the other hand, CB was set up at a time when people were expected to stay in school through high school and people's perceptions changed that teenagers were still children rather than people in the early stages of becoming adults. Of course this is all just speculation but it's fun to think about. Perhaps Len wants amateur radio to be more like cb... Perhaps because Len epitomizes CBers...?!?! 73 Steve, K4YZ It's impossible to tell from his postings. It would appear not that he wants it like CB but that he hates amateur radio and amateur radio operators. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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#185
March 12th 05, 04:51 PM
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K4YZ wrote: wrote: btw, when cb required a license, there was an age requirement. I think it was 18, but it could have been 15 - I'm not 100% sure because I was never involved in cb. Yet that age requirement didn't help cb's problems... It was because 18 is the "age of majority" for most legal purposes. A minor couldn't be held liable. I disagree. Some minors can get driver's licenses in most places, which is a far more dangerous activity than being allowed to use a 5 watt, channelized, type-accepted 27 MHz cb transceiver according to cb rules. Why it matters for CB and not for Amateur Radio is beyond me. I think the real difference was that a cb permit required no test, no skill, and no demonstration of ability of any kind except for the ability to fill out the application form and send it in. I think FCC thought, back when cb was created, that denying cb permits to people under 18 would insure that the vast majority of cb users would display mature, responsible on-air behavior that followed FCC rules. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way. Perhaps Len wants amateur radio to be more like cb... Perhaps because Len epitomizes CBers...?!?! Epitomizes or idolizes? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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#186
March 12th 05, 06:08 PM
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Dee Flint wrote: "K4YZ" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: btw, when cb required a license, there was an age requirement. I think it was 18, but it could have been 15 - I'm not 100% sure because I was never involved in cb. Yet that age requirement didn't help cb's problems... I wonder if that is perhaps because ham radio goes back to a time when people were believed to be responsible at a younger age even though they may or may not have been able to sign contracts, etc. That was a time when completing the 8th grade was still considered sufficient for most people and they often then went to full time work rather than going on to more schooling. They were considered adults at least functionally if not legally. Even quite young children sometimes worked instead of going to school. On the other hand, CB was set up at a time when people were expected to stay in school through high school and people's perceptions changed that teenagers were still children rather than people in the early stages of becoming adults. Class A and B cb go back to just after WW2. Yet IIRC, the age requirement goes back to the very beginning. Of course this is all just speculation but it's fun to think about. The most important factor is that an age requirement did *not* insure mature, law-abiding behavior on cb. Perhaps Len wants amateur radio to be more like cb... Perhaps because Len epitomizes CBers...?!?! It's impossible to tell from his postings. It would appear not that he wants it like CB but that he hates amateur radio and amateur radio operators. Since Len doesn't answer questions in a straightforward fashion, there's no way to know for sure. But Len never has anything bad to say about cb, and rarely if ever has anything good to say about amateur radio. That tells a lot. I've pretty much copied your killfiling of Len's tirades, Dee. The analogy of the fence concealing the landfill is excellent. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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#187
March 12th 05, 06:19 PM
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Dave Heil wrote: bb wrote: Dave Heil wrote: bb wrote: Dave Heil wrote: He wishes I'd forget about his comments on the minimum age requirement for radio amateurs. He wishes I'd forget about his comments on the out of band french radio amateurs on six meters. Len worked guys on 6m? When did that happen? From downtown Dar es Salam. When was Len in Dar es "Salam"? Dave K8MN He heard they were having an opening to out of band Frenchmen on 6 meters and decided to check in on it. The one amateur op he found had the event sewed up, so he returned. |
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#188
March 12th 05, 06:23 PM
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#189
March 12th 05, 06:33 PM
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Dave Heil wrote: wrote: You would deny licenses to people based solely on age, without *any* evidence of age-related problems. That's just plain wrong. But we'll never see agreement on that from Leonard. Dave K8MN Would an arbitrary barrier, such as an age 14 barrier, have prevented either you or Jim from obtaining an amateur license? Kelly has already gone on record as having began his amateur career sans any licensing whatsoever. |
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#190
March 12th 05, 06:36 PM
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wrote in message ups.com... Dee Flint wrote: [snip] I've pretty much copied your killfiling of Len's tirades, Dee. The analogy of the fence concealing the landfill is excellent. 73 de Jim, N2EY I can't take credit for that analogy however. I forget who did post it. However, I probably would not object strongly to a landfill as it provides a necessary and useful function in our society. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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