South Africa!
 

Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has fallen.

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has
fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who still have
it?

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in
:

wrote in news:1108578593.250795.201100
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has
fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who still
have it?

73 de Jim, N2EY



It's getting a little difficult to keep track. However, I think at
least the UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands,
Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore, Australia,
New Zealand, Papua Niugini, Hong Kong and South Africa have abolished
the code test so far. I think that of these only Austria and the
Netherlands even retain an entry level licence that doesn't give HF
privileges.

That's only 17 countries, but I expect I may have missed some out. I
make the combined ham population of the above something over 260,000
(possibly more than half of them no-coders), so probably a little less
than half the number of hams in the US. However, there are well over
50,000 hams in Canada, which is also likely to abolish the code test
very soon.

Don't forget that Japan, with a ham population of 1.2 Million (twice
that of the US, out of maybe a fifth of your general population), has
long had a no-code HF licence, albeit limited to 10 Watts. I'm not sure
how many Japanese hams have a no-code HF licence, but they may even
rival all the new ones so far put together, although the new guys can
use more than 10 Watts! It's probably only a matter of time before
Japan lets all of their hams use HF anyway.

Even without the low power Japanese stations, the number of no-coders
who have full HF privileges right now is probably about the same as the
number of no-code Techs in the US.

73 de Alun, N3KIP


That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has fallen.


Wouldn't it make a country proud to emulate South Africa?

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has
fallen.


Wouldn't it make a country proud to emulate South Africa?

- Mike KB3EIA -

Don't go getting ethnocentric on us, Mike. Not very liberal-like. Or
maybe it is. They're the ones always counting how many blacks,
hispanics, american eskimos, cajuns, etc there are.

Beside, in addition to South Africa, don't forget the UK, Ireland,
France, Germany, Belgium, Austria, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Norway,
Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Papua
Niugini, Hong Kong and Japan.

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has
fallen.


Wouldn't it make a country proud to emulate South Africa?

- Mike KB3EIA -



I rather think that S Africa is emulating 17 other countries

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote:

wrote in news:1108606123.450223.319640
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

wrote:
Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has
fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who still
have it?

A tiny fraction of the number of countries which are members of the UN
and/or the ITU.

About 10% as a matter of fact. A minority, but not quite my idea of a
'tiny' fraction.

Ten percent is a tiny fraction when compared to 100%.

The point is, of course, that we are far from done yet.
Canada may be next.

There's little doubt. The Canadian government is pro-gay marriage too.

Note that most of the countries on Alun's list are
chunks of Old Europe and their syncophants where socialist gummint
giveaways are rampant compared with the rest of the world.


So you prefer totalitarian regimes instead?

Who wrote anything like that?

Nor does it include heavy hitters like the countries of the former
Soviet bloc, Brazil, India and China.


Those countries have large populations, but they don't they have the
highest numbers of hams per head.

South Africa has a population which is a little over 47 million. It has
about 4300 radio amateurs. Finland has that many radio amateurs with a
population of under 5 million. Russia has just under 144 million people
and has about 15,000 amateur licenses. It would seem that Russia isn't
keeping up with the per capita licensing of South Africa. Little Finland
can coast for a few decades.

Gonna be a LOOONG time before the last code test disappears . .

I'm sure it will be a great comfort to you if the Russian Federation is the
last to keep a code test. They are not my idea of anyone I would want to
emulate, however.

I gather that you prefer life in Maryland to life in the U.K., too,
Alun.

As for me, the crime rates in either Russia or South Africa would keep
me from wanting to become a resident of either. Then again, we were
talking about whether they decided to keep a morse test for amateur
radio.

Dave K8MN

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in
:

wrote in news:1108578593.250795.201100
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more
domino has fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those
who still have it?

73 de Jim, N2EY

It's getting a little difficult to keep track. However, I
think at
least the UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, the
Netherlands,
Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore,
Australia,
New Zealand, Papua Niugini, Hong Kong and South Africa have
abolished
the code test so far. I think that of these only Austria and
the
Netherlands even retain an entry level licence that doesn't
give HF privileges.

That's only 17 countries, but I expect I may have missed some
out. I
make the combined ham population of the above something over
260,000
(possibly more than half of them no-coders), so probably a
little less
than half the number of hams in the US.

260,000/670,000 = about 38.9%

However, there are well over
50,000 hams in Canada, which is also likely to abolish
the code test very soon.

Yep. But there are two big points about Canada:

1) The proposal would increase the written test level

2) Commentary to the Canadian proposal showed a clear majority
favored the change. That's not the case in the USA, in any survey done
to date, nor in the commentary to FCC.


Don't forget that Japan, with a ham population of 1.2 Million
(twice
that of the US, out of maybe a fifth of your general
population), has
long had a no-code HF licence, albeit limited to 10 Watts.

Check your numbers!

Japan has over 3.1 million operator licenses - but they cost nothing
and never expire, so that number is really the number of ham operator
licenses issued since 1955, not the number of present-day hams.

Japanese *station* licenses are a bit over 600,000 now, and have been
dropping for a decade.

The number of new JA licenses has also been dropping.

See the AH0A website.

I'm not sure
how many Japanese hams have a no-code HF licence,

Well over 95%.

but they may even
rival all the new ones so far put together, although the new
guys can
use more than 10 Watts! It's probably only a matter of time
before
Japan lets all of their hams use HF anyway.

All Japanese hams have HF privileges *today*. Been that way for
decades.

But for all classes of ham license except 4th class, JA hams have a
code test. And there's no move to change that yet.

Even without the low power Japanese stations, the number of
no-coders
who have full HF privileges right now is probably about the
same as the
number of no-code Techs in the US.

Close enough.

That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for
itself.

Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?

73 de Jim, N2EY

bb wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has

fallen.


Wouldn't it make a country proud to emulate South Africa?

- Mike KB3EIA -


Don't go getting ethnocentric on us, Mike. Not very liberal-like. Or
maybe it is. They're the ones always counting how many blacks,
hispanics, american eskimos, cajuns, etc there are.

Ethnocentricity is at the core of the problem there, not me going
ethnocentric.

- mike KB3EIA -

Dave Heil wrote:
"Alun L. Palmer" wrote:

wrote in news:1108606123.450223.319640
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

wrote:
Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino
has
fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who
still
have it?

A tiny fraction of the number of countries which are members of
the UN
and/or the ITU.

About 10% as a matter of fact. A minority, but not quite my idea of
a
'tiny' fraction.

Ten percent is a tiny fraction when compared to 100%.

It is 1/10. You could compare it to 10/10, but then you'd defeat the
purpose of showing it as a ratio.

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
wrote in news:1108665611.010471.49400
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:


A tiny fraction of the number of countries which are members of
the
UN and/or the ITU.

About 10% as a matter of fact. A minority, but not quite my idea
of a

'tiny' fraction. The point is, of course, that we are far from
done
yet. Canada may be next.

One more out of 185 or so snore. Let's see here . . where's my
sliderule . . . if four "dominoes" per year fall, which is about
the
current rate and the rate is maintained it'll be 2046 before the
last
code test requirement is dropped.


Most of those other 170+ are pretty small, although you choose to
mention
the big ones by name of course.

Of course, because first of all it's the big countries which set trends
at least regionally and it's their huge numbers of citizens who would
potentially be most affected by changes in ham radio regs. Which is a
whole different topic from the effects on their existing ham
populations whatever their number.


What you call Old Europe isn't socialist by any rational standards,
unless
you are an extreme neo-con republican? I'll take that as a yes.

Don't because you couldn't be more wrong.


My point is that
governments make these kinds of decisions based on their
culture-based
inclinations in such matters. Which is to say that the former
Soviets,
Brazil, India and China are not socialist giveaway swamps like
Sweden,
France and the rest and are far less likely to quit the code tests.

Last time I checked France and Sweden were capitalist countries and
China
was socialist.

They're both socialist Alun. The only difference being that China uses
the Marx/Lennin model and Sweden is the model for Old Europe socialism.



As for Russia, the old communists seem to be taking over
again, albeit they don't actually care what system they rule over,
nor ever
did, IMHO.

Never in their thousand year history have the Russians lived in a
democracy or a capitalist society, their genes need to be conditioned
before they get their act together by western standards. In the
meanwhile they're suffering from massive startup lumps and bumps which
were predicted long before the Soviet Union actually imploded. Whatever
this has to do with code tests.

I'm sure it will be a great comfort to you if the Russian
Federation
is the last to keep a code test. They are not my idea of anyone I
would want to emulate, however.

But emulating Sweden is OK huh?

n3kip

w3rv



Sure, why not?

BINGO: There it is. Old Europe. Sez it all.

Not in your lifetime Alun.

'Bye.

w3rv

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
wrote in news:1108637750.922635.205620
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in
:

wrote in news:1108578593.250795.201100
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino
has
fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who
still
have it?

It's getting a little difficult to keep track. However, I
think at
least the UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, the
Netherlands,
Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore,
Australia,
New Zealand, Papua Niugini, Hong Kong and South Africa have
abolished the code test so far. I think that of these only
Austria
and the Netherlands even retain an entry level licence that
doesn't
give HF privileges.

That's only 17 countries, but I expect I may have missed some

out. I make the combined ham population of the above something
over
260,000 (possibly more than half of them no-coders), so
probably
a little less
than half the number of hams in the US.

260,000/670,000 = about 38.9%

Quite a bit less than half.

However, there are well over
50,000 hams in Canada, which is also likely to abolish the code
test
very soon.

Yep. But there are two big points about Canada:

1) The proposal would increase the written test level

This is a biggie. Simply proposing to drop the code test is *not* the
same thing as proposing to drop the code test *and* beef up the
writtens.

IIRC, one of the things proposed in Canada was to make the code test
optional in that if you passed code you didn't need as high a grade on
theory to get the license.

If the nocodetest folks in the USA proposed options like those they
might get a lot more support. But instead, we have folks like NCVEC
telling us we must drop code *and* reduce the written still more.

2) Commentary to the Canadian proposal showed a clear majority
favored the change. That's not the case in the USA, in any survey
done
to date, nor in the commentary to FCC.

Another biggie.

Don't forget that Japan, with a ham population of 1.2 Million
(twice
that of the US, out of maybe a fifth of your general
population), has
long had a no-code HF licence, albeit limited to 10 Watts.

Check your numbers!

Japan has over 3.1 million operator licenses - but they cost
nothing
and never expire, so that number is really the number of ham
operator
licenses issued since 1955, not the number of present-day hams.

Japanese *station* licenses are a bit over 600,000 now, and have
been
dropping for a decade.

The number of new JA licenses has also been dropping.

See the AH0A website.

I'm not sure
how many Japanese hams have a no-code HF licence,

Well over 95%.

but they may even
rival all the new ones so far put together, although the new
guys can use more than 10 Watts! It's probably only a matter of
time
before Japan lets all of their hams use HF anyway.

All Japanese hams have HF privileges *today*. Been that way for
decades.

But for all classes of ham license except 4th class, JA hams have a
code test. And there's no move to change that yet.

And for ten years JA ham license numbers have been dropping fast.
*With* nocodetest HF.

Even without the low power Japanese stations, the number of
no-coders who have full HF privileges right now is probably
about
the same as the
number of no-code Techs in the US.

Close enough.

And if there are already that number of no-code hams on HF without
any
incident, what is the problem with abolishing the code test here?

The USA isn't Japan. Different society, different culture, different
rules.

It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.

That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for
itself.

Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code
test.

The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual
ownership of firearms, too.

Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?

No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries

So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

73 de Jim, N2EY

i have used their milia treatment for milia seed on my eye brown area
and below cheek. after three applications, i noticed a reduction in the
milia size, quite impressed as i thought only laser surgery can solve
my problem.
--------------------------------

i keep seeing reviews and raves about this
http://www.naturalisproducts.com and http://www.organiconline.com.sg .
many people are discussing in beauty forums and magazines have positive
reviews on this . but this thing ain't new, its been around for many
years! anyone tried can feedback to me on exactly how good it is?

----------------------------------------
can anyone help me please, am looking for the local distributor or any
shop selling the naturalis range of skin and body care products, from
this company http://www.naturalisproducts.com . looking for this
urgently. for those who have not come across it, its some foodbased
anti-aging products. i googled for this and received result showing its
available at http://www.organiconline.com.sg. i need this
urgently but shipping from singapore will take some time, if anyone is
distributing this please contact me at
urgently. i have a group of us looking to buy this. thanks!
--

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:25:40 -0500, Mike Coslo wrote:

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be a
Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle full
legal limit.

"Here lies ol' John McStencil
He drew arcs from his finals with a lead pencil"

(More-or-less recalled caption from a QST "Switch to Safety" cartoon
of 50+ years ago)

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

wrote:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

wrote in news:1108637750.922635.205620
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in
.30:


wrote in news:1108578593.250795.201100
:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino

has

fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who

still

have it?


It's getting a little difficult to keep track. However, I
think at
least the UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, the
Netherlands,
Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore,
Australia,
New Zealand, Papua Niugini, Hong Kong and South Africa have
abolished the code test so far. I think that of these only

Austria

and the Netherlands even retain an entry level licence that
doesn't give HF privileges.
That's only 17 countries, but I expect I may have missed some

out. I make the combined ham population of the above something

over

260,000 (possibly more than half of them no-coders), so

probably

a little less
than half the number of hams in the US.

260,000/670,000 = about 38.9%


Quite a bit less than half.

However, there are well over
50,000 hams in Canada, which is also likely to abolish the code

test

very soon.

Yep. But there are two big points about Canada:

1) The proposal would increase the written test level


This is a biggie. Simply proposing to drop the code test is *not* the
same thing as proposing to drop the code test *and* beef up the
writtens.

I'd like that quite a bit.

IIRC, one of the things proposed in Canada was to make the code test
optional in that if you passed code you didn't need as high a grade on
theory to get the license.

Now that just seems strange. The test should either be or not be.
Not
some kind of bonus that allows you to be less technically proficient.

If the nocodetest folks in the USA proposed options like those they
might get a lot more support. But instead, we have folks like NCVEC
telling us we must drop code *and* reduce the written still more.

And how! Let's not forget that NCI also supports lowering the test
requirements.

All they have to go on is "gut" feelings. And unfortunately, the
first
wave of no-code Technicians appear to be dropping like flies. "Gut"
feelings can be wrong.

Theirs is a failed and incorrect paradigm.

We don't need hams that thought that maybe it would be kewl to get
a
ham license some weekend between coffee at Starbucks and their Pilates
classes, and then forget about it. We need hams who want to be hams.


2) Commentary to the Canadian proposal showed a clear majority
favored the change. That's not the case in the USA, in any survey
done to date, nor in the commentary to FCC.


Another biggie.


Don't forget that Japan, with a ham population of 1.2 Million
(twice

that of the US, out of maybe a fifth of your general
population), has
long had a no-code HF licence, albeit limited to 10 Watts.

Check your numbers!

Japan has over 3.1 million operator licenses - but they cost
nothing and never expire, so that number is really the number of ham
operator licenses issued since 1955, not the number of present-day
hams.

Japanese *station* licenses are a bit over 600,000 now, and have
been dropping for a decade. The number of new JA licenses has also
been dropping.
See the AH0A website.


I'm not sure
how many Japanese hams have a no-code HF licence,

Well over 95%.


but they may even
rival all the new ones so far put together, although the new
guys can use more than 10 Watts! It's probably only a matter of
time before Japan lets all of their hams use HF anyway.

All Japanese hams have HF privileges *today*. Been that way for
decades.

But for all classes of ham license except 4th class, JA hams have a
code test. And there's no move to change that yet.


And for ten years JA ham license numbers have been dropping fast.
*With* nocodetest HF.


Quick! Let's emulate Japan! Except we can do it better by allowing
the
newbies full power privileges.

Japan's obvious success can be our own!

Even without the low power Japanese stations, the number of
no-coders who have full HF privileges right now is probably
about the same as the number of no-code Techs in the US.


Close enough.

And if there are already that number of no-code hams on HF without any
incident, what is the problem with abolishing the code test here?


The USA isn't Japan. Different society, different culture, different
rules.

I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but lets
say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman not
knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when trying
to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but what if she
simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?- negligent design
of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig, and
is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies on
the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful lawsuits
already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful burn
and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit if
we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be a
Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle full
legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second to
drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control op can
react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power safety
requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.

It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.


That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual
ownership of firearms, too.


Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make it
out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -




Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do. Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always been many
Techs who could pass Extra class theory. Herding them above 30 MHz is a
problem, not for you perhaps, but still a problem.

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but lets
say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman not
knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when trying
to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but what if she
simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?- negligent design
of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig, and
is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies on
the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful lawsuits
already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful burn
and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit if
we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be a
Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle full
legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second to
drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control op can
react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power safety
requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.


It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.



That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual
ownership of firearms, too.



Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make it
out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things they
want to do in the hobby too.

Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always been many
Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od learning
Morse code! ;^)

As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of the
person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the problem
with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it worth
getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when their
license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the codeless
Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their license.


Herding them above 30 MHz is a
problem, not for you perhaps, but still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
Mike Coslo wrote in
:

[big, big snip. Do you have to quote EVERYTHING??]



Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do. Not that I'm saying that
the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always been
many
Techs who could pass Extra class theory. Herding them above 30 MHz is a
problem, not for you perhaps, but still a problem.

No one can do everything they want to, not even the Extras. We must comply
with the mode regulations, special power limits in the old novice subbands,
and we should comply with the band plans.

There is no "herding" involved. The "gate" wide open.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but lets
say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman
not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when
trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but what
if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?- negligent
design of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig, and
is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies on
the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful lawsuits
already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit if
we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be a
Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle full
legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second to
drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control op can
react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power safety
requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.


It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.



That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test because a
few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual
ownership of firearms, too.



Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things they
want to do in the hobby too.

Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always been
many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning
Morse code! ;^)


So did I, but it was hell!

If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the
person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the problem
with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it worth
getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their
license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless
Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their license.


Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I couldn't
say.


Herding them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but
still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -


You mean the part that doesn't refract from the ionosphere, right?

73 de Alun, N3KIP

"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
Mike Coslo wrote in
:

[big, big snip. Do you have to quote EVERYTHING??]



Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do. Not that I'm saying
that the Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have
always been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory. Herding
them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but still a
problem.

No one can do everything they want to, not even the Extras. We must
comply with the mode regulations, special power limits in the old
novice subbands, and we should comply with the band plans.

Certainly, but that doesn't stop us from advocating that those rules be
changed. A rule that those who can't read on/off keying by ear can't
refract their signals from the ionosphere is lacking in logic of any kind.


There is no "herding" involved. The "gate" wide open.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




No. The gate is shut and only those who can jump over it can get in, but
jumping is purely optional once they get in. (More weird metaphors,
although I suppose I started this one).

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
Mike Coslo wrote in
:

[big, big snip. Do you have to quote EVERYTHING??]

Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but
they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do. Not that I'm saying
that the Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have

always been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory. Herding
them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but still a
problem.

No one can do everything they want to, not even the Extras. We must

comply with the mode regulations, special power limits in the old
novice subbands, and we should comply with the band plans.

Certainly, but that doesn't stop us from advocating that those rules
be
changed. A rule that those who can't read on/off keying by ear can't
refract their signals from the ionosphere is lacking in logic of any
kind.

Quite true, Alun, but that isn't the real subject for morsemen.

The morsemen insist and insist and insist on keeping the
morse test because that is what They had to undergo. If
They had to do it, then all others must do it.

U.S. amateur radio was never chartered to be a living museum of
archaic radiotelegraphy skills. There is no need to maintain any
morse telegraphic skills through federal subsidy of any kind in
this new millennium.

But, to most morsemen, having developed the telegraphy skill,
they have a bragging right to show their "superiority" in radio.
Never mind that such "superiority" is one of myth and fantasy
and exists today solely in amateur radio. Morsemen have
bought into their Belief system that the federal government Must
support/defend/cherish morse skills because that is the way
They believe.

In a few it is the fear of loss of their "greatness" in radio
(of the amateur variety) as they age. They desperately want
to preserve their status and their Beliefs that they bought
into long ago. They dare not change anything in their
hobby...such change is perceived as a threat to their
survival...so they rationalize the radiotelegraphy "need"
and bitterly condemn all who seek change.

There is no "herding" involved. The "gate" wide open.

No. The gate is shut and only those who can jump over it can get in,
but
jumping is purely optional once they get in. (More weird metaphors,
although I suppose I started this one).

Alun, you didn't "start" that. You have to understand that
morsemen (and morsepersons) MUST retain all regulations as
they are now. To change them might result in loss of the
morse test andthat is something they cannot abide. Ergo,
the rationalization that LAWS MUST BE OBEYED and, by very
strong inference, those laws cannot ever be changed!

Of course laws must be obeyed. There would be no reason to
have them if they weren't. However, there is NO reason to
prohibit CHANGE of law by established, rightful democratic-
principle action. However, CHANGE is anathema to
morsepeople for, if some laws on amateur radio are changed,
then the morse code test necessity might be changed.
They can't have that.

So, there is this self-righteous insistence on "legality" of
obeyance and the rejection (an illegality itself) of the
ability to change law.
[by any means possible, apparently...:-) ]

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but lets
say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman
not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when
trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but what
if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?- negligent
design of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig, and
is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies on
the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful lawsuits
already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit if
we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be a
Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle full
legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second to
drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control op can
react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power safety
requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.



It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.




That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test because a
few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual
ownership of firearms, too.




Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things they
want to do in the hobby too.


Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always been
many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning Morse code! ;^)


So did I, but it was hell!

Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test, and
finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio differently
than does those people with normal hearing.

If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty easily, and
for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same goes for
the writtens.

I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down and said "Let's
give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn Morse code".


As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the problem
with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it worth
getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their license.

Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I couldn't
say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person. Let us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense interest
in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against Morse code
testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.

I think that those who want to get rid of Element one testing would be
better off to not try that argument.

That would be reminiscent of the old "Jump Frog" joke!


Herding them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but
still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -



You mean the part that doesn't refract from the ionosphere, right?

Let us not forget 6 meters.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
...

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

[big, big snip. Do you have to quote EVERYTHING??]



Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do. Not that I'm saying
that the Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have
always been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory. Herding
them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but still a
problem.

No one can do everything they want to, not even the Extras. We must
comply with the mode regulations, special power limits in the old
novice subbands, and we should comply with the band plans.


Certainly, but that doesn't stop us from advocating that those rules be
changed. A rule that those who can't read on/off keying by ear can't
refract their signals from the ionosphere is lacking in logic of any kind.

An argument can be made that no one should be tested at all.
Freebanders do it all the time. All rules are arbitrary.

But somewhere, somehow, a group of people decided that those were the
rules. Those rules came from rules that were in force previously. The
rules change constantly. That's a fact.

One of those changes 10 or so years ago was to give access to *most* of
our allotted frequencies to people without having them take a code test.
Also a fact.

This has had mixed results. Also a fact.

Possibilities:

Removal of the Morse code test has made the testing process easier.
This has allowed people who have only a passing interest in Ham radio to
get their license. Passing interests pass, and they allow their licenses
to lapse.

The Morse code tests are so hard that the No-code Technician either
becomes so discouraged that they quit, or their convictions are so
strong that they would rather not be a Ham than take the Element one test.

You can decide for yourself which sounds more likely.


There is no "herding" involved. The "gate" wide open.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE





No. The gate is shut and only those who can jump over it can get in, but
jumping is purely optional once they get in. (More weird metaphors,
although I suppose I started this one).

I pounded and pounded and pounded that key until I broke the gate
down.......... (yoiks) 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but
lets say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman
not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when
trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but
what if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?-
negligent design of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig,
and is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies
on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful
lawsuits already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit
if we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be
a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle
full legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second
to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control
op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power
safety requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.



It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.




That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test because
a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict
individual ownership of firearms, too.




Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things they
want to do in the hobby too.


Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always
been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning Morse code! ;^)


So did I, but it was hell!

Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test, and
finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio differently
than does those people with normal hearing.


I have not posted this point for a long time, as it provokes extreme
reactions from the pro code test lobby, but I can beat your 6 months. It
took me 22 years. Can you honestly wonder that I feel the way I do?

If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty easily,
and
for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same goes
for the writtens.

I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down and said
"Let's
give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn Morse code".


As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the
problem with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it
worth getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their
license.

Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I
couldn't say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person. Let
us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense interest
in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against Morse
code testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.

It was true enough of me, although I became a no-code ham in 1980 (in the
UK), more or less in defeat at having tried unsuccessfully to learn Morse
code ever since 1970, and passed a code test in 1992.

Getting a no-code licence was something I only did because I was resigned
to not getting the HF access that I wanted. It was a case of thinking it
was silly to stay off the air altogether just because I couldn't get on HF,
and it took me a long time, i.e. 10 years, to grudgingly reach that
conclusion.

Eventually passing the code test was helped by software that didn't exist
back in 1970, and the help of dear friends who took turns to send slow CW
transmissions several times a week that I knew were being done mainly just
for my benefit. Sure, others tuned in, but they stopped sending them when I
passed! I owe them a great deal.

Here's another interesting fact. I was teaching ham radio classes for years
before I passed the bleeping code!

If none of this rings true, I can assure that every word is the truth.

As I said, all of this has been posted here before, but not recently. My
own history hasn't proved as effective as an argument as simply pointing
out that none of the arguments in favour of retaining code testing hold as
much water as a leaky bucket!


I think that those who want to get rid of Element one testing
would be
better off to not try that argument.

That would be reminiscent of the old "Jump Frog" joke!


Except that the circumstances I describe never struck me as a joke.


Herding them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but
still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -



You mean the part that doesn't refract from the ionosphere, right?

Let us not forget 6 meters.

- Mike KB3EIA -



The magic band is the exception that proves the rule!

73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:



Alun L. Palmer wrote:



Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but
lets say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman
not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when
trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but
what if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?-
negligent design of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig,
and is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies
on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful
lawsuits already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit
if we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be
a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle
full legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second
to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control
op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power
safety requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.




It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.





That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test because
a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict
individual ownership of firearms, too.





Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things they
want to do in the hobby too.



Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always
been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning Morse code! ;^)


So did I, but it was hell!

Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test, and
finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio differently
than does those people with normal hearing.



I have not posted this point for a long time, as it provokes extreme
reactions from the pro code test lobby, but I can beat your 6 months. It
took me 22 years. Can you honestly wonder that I feel the way I do?

That is quite a long time. What was the reason that it took you 22
years? My reason was hearing problems, and a presumed mental processing
of sound deficit.

What was the total study time?

If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty easily,
and for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same goes
for the writtens. I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down and said
"Let's give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn Morse code".



As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the
problem with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it
worth getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their
license.


Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I
couldn't say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person. Let
us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense interest
in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against Morse
code testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.


It was true enough of me, although I became a no-code ham in 1980 (in the
UK), more or less in defeat at having tried unsuccessfully to learn Morse
code ever since 1970, and passed a code test in 1992.

Getting a no-code licence was something I only did because I was resigned
to not getting the HF access that I wanted. It was a case of thinking it
was silly to stay off the air altogether just because I couldn't get on HF,
and it took me a long time, i.e. 10 years, to grudgingly reach that
conclusion.

Eventually passing the code test was helped by software that didn't exist
back in 1970, and the help of dear friends who took turns to send slow CW
transmissions several times a week that I knew were being done mainly just
for my benefit. Sure, others tuned in, but they stopped sending them when I
passed! I owe them a great deal.

Here's another interesting fact. I was teaching ham radio classes for years
before I passed the bleeping code!

If none of this rings true, I can assure that every word is the truth.

I believe you. And you didn't do what my hypothetical Technician did
either. You kept with it an eventually passed


As I said, all of this has been posted here before, but not recently. My
own history hasn't proved as effective as an argument as simply pointing
out that none of the arguments in favour of retaining code testing hold as
much water as a leaky bucket!

Except here is what I see as the difference. You had difficulties with
Element one, and so did I. You want the test eliminated because you had
a hard time of it. I don't want the test removed just because of my
personal trouble with it.

We all have walls to climb in life. Some peoples walls are higher than
others. I'll climb my own walls, and not try to change everyone elses
walls. YMMV.




I think that those who want to get rid of Element one testing
would be
better off to not try that argument.

That would be reminiscent of the old "Jump Frog" joke!


Except that the circumstances I describe never struck me as a joke.

I had enough problems that it was no joke to me either. But my point
wasn't about the test specifically, it was the conclusion that people
reach regarding Morse code testing and the people coming into or leaving
the ARS.


Just so you know what the joke was about:



A scientist was conducting an experiment.

He took a frog, and sat it on the floor. Then he said:

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 6 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with four legs jumps 6 feet*.

Then he cuts off one of the frog's legs...

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 4 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with three legs jumps 4 feet*.

He cuts off another leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 2 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with two legs jumps 2 feet*.

Then he cuts off the third leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

With a mighty struggle, the frog jumps 1 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with 1 leg jumps 1 foot*.

Then he cuts off the final leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog just sits there.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog still just sits there.


The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with no legs is deaf.





Herding them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but
still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -



You mean the part that doesn't refract from the ionosphere, right?

Let us not forget 6 meters.

- Mike KB3EIA -




The magic band is the exception that proves the rule!

73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Alun L. Palmer wrote:

[snip]
No. The gate is shut and only those who can jump over it can get in, but
jumping is purely optional once they get in. (More weird metaphors,
although I suppose I started this one).

I pounded and pounded and pounded that key until I broke the gate
down.......... (yoiks) 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -


As did I. Now in retrospect, I can see that it was me that was making it
hard rather than it actually being hard.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Mike Coslo pounded his brass on Feb 20, 3:29 pm and posted this:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"Dee Flint" wrote in
:

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
0...

No one can do everything they want to, not even the Extras. We must

comply with the mode regulations, special power limits in the old
novice subbands, and we should comply with the band plans.

Certainly, but that doesn't stop us from advocating that those rules
be
changed. A rule that those who can't read on/off keying by ear can't

refract their signals from the ionosphere is lacking in logic of any
kind.

An argument can be made that no one should be tested at all.
Freebanders do it all the time. All rules are arbitrary.

That's an absurd counter to what Alun said.

NO ONE was talking about "freebanders."

NO ONE was talking about "no test at all."

Alan spoke of the equally-absurd notion by some that
personal radiotelegraphy skill "enables" operation of
radios on HF. Absolutely NO qualification for such a
thought held by many control-freak morsemen in ham
radio. There's NO such "enablement" except in the
emotional fantasies of some.

The talk was of the MORSE CODE TEST, not the
written tests. Try for some semblance of focus.

But somewhere, somehow, a group of people decided that those
were the
rules. Those rules came from rules that were in force previously. The
rules change constantly. That's a fact.

Those "facts" have little to do with this so-called
technical necessity to personally know morse in
order to make an HF or MF transmitter work. Tens
of thousands of "radio operators" ranging from
military to civilians have successfully operated HF
radios without possessing any ability to do morse
code. For years. Worldwide.

One of those changes 10 or so years ago was to give access to
*most* of
our allotted frequencies to people without having them take a code
test.
Also a fact.

Not quite correct. The Report & Order establishing the
no-code-test Technician class U.S. amateur radio
license went into effect in 1991. That's over 13 years
ago. A fact.

Those Technicians were NOT allowed any privileges
below 30 MHz, also a fact.

The Technician class license was the fastest-growing
class in U.S. amateur radio (among all classes) from
1991 to the recent Restructuring. A fact. One that the
morsemen are loathe to discuss; if not "loathe," then
they are generally hostile to that concept. :-)

Removal of the Morse code test has made the testing process
easier.
This has allowed people who have only a passing interest in Ham radio
to
get their license. Passing interests pass, and they allow their
licenses
to lapse.

Oh! Tsk, TSK! What sort do these newcomers
encounter when entering amateur radio as newbies?
They meet some angry olde men of morsemanship
babbling absurdities of how "superior" they are
because they can do high-speed radiotelegraphy
and that (according to them) defines "real hams."

"No-coders" are shunned by those olde morseaholics,
regarded as second-class sub-humans who are said
to be "stupid" because they can't or don't develop the
psychomotor skills necessary to emulate a morse
modem. Those self-righteous macho-wannabe
morsemen simply don't understand that the hobby of
amateur radio was never defined solely for
radiotelegraphy.

Meeting the bitterness and social pariahdom imposed
by those self-righteous morsemen would make ordinary
hobbyists look elsewhere for fun. There are many, many
different kinds of hobby fun elsewhere.

The Morse code tests are so hard that the No-code Technician
either
becomes so discouraged that they quit, or their convictions are so
strong that they would rather not be a Ham than take the Element one
test.

Oh, my, the "conviction to the 'cause'" and
"dedication to the ham community" is an intrinsic
part of being a "real" ham?!? Tsk, another self-
righteous emotional personal concept which has
NO basis in reality.

Ah, yes, one can almost picture the NOS "recruiting"
posters and aphorisms springing up about "Learn
Radiotelegraphy to Join 'The Service'!!!" Outdated
garbage phrases left over from the 1930s... :-(

You can decide for yourself which sounds more likely.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. "Loading" a "reason?" That's absurd and
illogical.

The ONLY thing tangible about this stupid necessity to
pass a morse code test is the hate and bitterness of
the olde morsemen who bitch and whine about "no-
coders" who weren't "man enough" to Do As They Did.

Please explain the "rules" involved in "showing commitment"
to this "amateur community" and what special non-FCC
forms have to be submitted to "gain approval"? And just
who rules on this alleged commitment and dedication?

There is no "herding" involved. The "gate" wide open.

Mama Dee, you know very well the regulations were made
to favor the olde morsemen. Guess who lobbied for that?
:-)


No. The gate is shut and only those who can jump over it can get in,
but
jumping is purely optional once they get in. (More weird metaphors,
although I suppose I started this one).

I pounded and pounded and pounded that key until I broke the
gate
down.......... (yoiks) 8^)

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Coslo. You just do NOT understand what
that "gate" is. You capitulated to the olde-tymers, bought
into the system, became an "extra" so that you could lord
it over other, lesser-class amateurs (the seeming norm among
the extras, particularly the NCTA extras).

The olde-tyme morsemen in hamdom wanted their private
HF playground where they could pose and posture and
otherwise carry on like the "superior" radio operators they
thought they were. So, the original 5 WPM morse test rate
was upped and upped until, years later, the 20 WPM morse
test defined the "extra" class.

If you wish to redefine U.S. amateur radio as the Archaic
Radiotelegraphy Society (ARS), feel free. Champion morse
code all you want. Lobby to keep the morse test so that you
will have some new playmates (maybe) in your radio playground
for your later years. Feel "superior." In the new millennium
only amateur radio uses morse code for communications; all
the other radio services that once used morse have dropped it.
The maritime radio users have voice and data as their major
modes of open-ocean radio communications...the olde-tyme
"sparky" is almost extinct. Keep watching as attrition and
very few newcomers make ham radio (as you know it) become
equally extinct.

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:



Alun L. Palmer wrote:



Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but
lets say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a
woman not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning
herself when trying to hold the darn thing between her legs.
(sorry Phil, but what if she simply ruined her dress because the
coffee was wet?- negligent design of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig,
and is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies
on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful
lawsuits already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches
a ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful
lawsuit if we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should
be a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to
handle full legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such
as Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a
second to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the
control op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to
full power safety requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.




It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written*
exam looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and
new operator licenses is way down.





That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for
itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish
the code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict
individual ownership of firearms, too.





Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but
they couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things
they want to do in the hobby too.



Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always
been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning Morse code! ;^)


So did I, but it was hell!

Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test,
and
finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio differently
than does those people with normal hearing.



I have not posted this point for a long time, as it provokes extreme
reactions from the pro code test lobby, but I can beat your 6 months.
It took me 22 years. Can you honestly wonder that I feel the way I do?

That is quite a long time. What was the reason that it took you 22
years? My reason was hearing problems, and a presumed mental processing
of sound deficit.


I don't know. My hearing is OK as far as I know.

What was the total study time?

Hard to say. I gave up completely over and over again, but I kept coming
back to it because I still wanted to get on HF.


If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty easily, and
for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same goes
for the writtens. I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down
and said "Let's give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn
Morse code".



As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the
problem with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it
worth getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their
license.


Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I
couldn't say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person. Let
us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense
interest in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against
Morse code testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.


It was true enough of me, although I became a no-code ham in 1980 (in
the UK), more or less in defeat at having tried unsuccessfully to
learn Morse code ever since 1970, and passed a code test in 1992.

Getting a no-code licence was something I only did because I was
resigned to not getting the HF access that I wanted. It was a case of
thinking it was silly to stay off the air altogether just because I
couldn't get on HF, and it took me a long time, i.e. 10 years, to
grudgingly reach that conclusion.

Eventually passing the code test was helped by software that didn't
exist back in 1970, and the help of dear friends who took turns to
send slow CW transmissions several times a week that I knew were being
done mainly just for my benefit. Sure, others tuned in, but they
stopped sending them when I passed! I owe them a great deal.

Here's another interesting fact. I was teaching ham radio classes for
years before I passed the bleeping code!

If none of this rings true, I can assure that every word is the truth.

I believe you. And you didn't do what my hypothetical Technician
did
either. You kept with it an eventually passed


Eventually is right


As I said, all of this has been posted here before, but not recently.
My own history hasn't proved as effective as an argument as simply
pointing out that none of the arguments in favour of retaining code
testing hold as much water as a leaky bucket!

Except here is what I see as the difference. You had difficulties
with
Element one, and so did I. You want the test eliminated because you had
a hard time of it. I don't want the test removed just because of my
personal trouble with it.


Six months isn't that long though, is it?

We all have walls to climb in life. Some peoples walls are higher
than
others. I'll climb my own walls, and not try to change everyone elses
walls. YMMV.




I think that those who want to get rid of Element one testing
would be
better off to not try that argument.

That would be reminiscent of the old "Jump Frog" joke!


Except that the circumstances I describe never struck me as a joke.

I had enough problems that it was no joke to me either. But my
point
wasn't about the test specifically, it was the conclusion that people
reach regarding Morse code testing and the people coming into or
leaving the ARS.


I think it's probably true that having the no-code licence has increased
turnover, but we don't know why. Nobody has done any research on this
point.

Doubtless some have used a no-code licence as a substitute for a cellphone.
Doubtless some who had only a passing interest got a Tech licence and then
moved on, but we have to factor in that they had no exposure to HF. I'm
sure that others found that the 'consolation prize' of 50MHz and up wasn't
enough of a consolation to bother renewing.


Just so you know what the joke was about:



A scientist was conducting an experiment.

He took a frog, and sat it on the floor. Then he said:

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 6 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with four legs jumps 6
feet*.

Then he cuts off one of the frog's legs...

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 4 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with three legs jumps 4
feet*.

He cuts off another leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 2 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with two legs jumps 2
feet*.

Then he cuts off the third leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

With a mighty struggle, the frog jumps 1 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with 1 leg jumps 1
foot*.

Then he cuts off the final leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog just sits there.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog still just sits there.


The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with no legs is deaf.



Funny in a macabre sort of way, but hard to see the connection.




Herding them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but
still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -



You mean the part that doesn't refract from the ionosphere, right?

Let us not forget 6 meters.

- Mike KB3EIA -




The magic band is the exception that proves the rule!

73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but
lets say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a
woman
not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself
when
trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but
what if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?-
negligent design of the cup?)

The case centered around the fact that the coffee was *extremely* and
unreasonably hot.

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt
rig,
and is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey
thingies
on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful
lawsuits already!

So what?

There's no license required to operate houshold appliances, nor power
tools,
which can be extremely dangerous. There's no skills test to pump your
own
gasoline. Or to climb a ladder.

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a
painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that
catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful
lawsuit
if we don't train them well.

Who are they going to sue? And on what grounds, compared to other
electronic devices?

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one
should be
a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to
handle
full legal limit.

The reason for the RF safety questions is to prevent exposing *others*
to
a hazard.

And the FCC has determined that the RF safety requirements of the
Tech test are adequate for hams who use up to 1500 W power output on
"meat-cooking frequencies".

And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or
some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things
such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a
second
to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the
control
op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full
power
safety requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.

But they are already tested on full-power requirements.

It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written*
exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and
new
operator licenses is way down.

That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because
a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.



Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish
the
code test.

The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict
individual ownership of firearms, too.

Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that
have
dropped code testing?

No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But
it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people
make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but
they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things
they
want to do in the hobby too.

Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges,

Why shouldn't they?

What is so special about HF that it requires so much more
testing than VHF/UHF?

There's propagation - big deal, it's already covered in the
Tech test, since Techs who have passed code can operate on
4 HF bands.

There's band edges - another no-counter, just add a couple
of questions.

There are no modes, technologies, or power levels allowed
to Generals or Extras that are not allowed to Techs.

So if you say that there is no *need* for code testing
to get a General or Extra, then you must logically also
accept the argument that there is no *need* for about
95% of what's in the General and Extra tests as well.

but there have always
been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Most could not.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning Morse code! ;^)

So did I, but it was hell!

Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test,
and
finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio
differently
than does those people with normal hearing.


I have not posted this point for a long time, as it provokes extreme
reactions from the pro code test lobby, but I can beat your 6 months.
It
took me 22 years.

The most extreme reactions I see are those of a few anticode types. Not
you,
Alun.

Can you honestly wonder that I feel the way I do?

Why did it take 22 years?

And didn't you wind up passing the 20 wpm test?

If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty
easily,
and
for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same
goes
for the writtens.

Exactly!

Some people have a very hard time with math. Others with rote
memorization
of things like band edges.

I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down and said
"Let's
give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn Morse code".

As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth
of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the
problem with normal people for which the test is too hard to make
it
worth getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks
when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their
license.

Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I
couldn't say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person.
Let
us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense
interest
in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against Morse
code testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.

It was true enough of me, although I became a no-code ham in 1980 (in
the
UK), more or less in defeat at having tried unsuccessfully to learn
Morse
code ever since 1970, and passed a code test in 1992.

Getting a no-code licence was something I only did because I was
resigned
to not getting the HF access that I wanted. It was a case of thinking
it
was silly to stay off the air altogether just because I couldn't get
on HF,
and it took me a long time, i.e. 10 years, to grudgingly reach that
conclusion.

WHat were the tesrt requirements in the UK then? Here in the USA, the
Novice
and Tech were 5 wpm in that time period.

Eventually passing the code test was helped by software that didn't
exist
back in 1970, and the help of dear friends who took turns to send
slow CW
transmissions several times a week that I knew were being done mainly
just
for my benefit. Sure, others tuned in, but they stopped sending them
when I
passed! I owe them a great deal.

Code training software for PCs was common here in EPA by the early
1980s. I still have old copies that run on DOS 3.2..

In the 1970s and 1980s, HF was full of non-amateur Morse operation. And
the
now-changed treaty required code tests.

Here's another interesting fact. I was teaching ham radio classes for
years
before I passed the bleeping code!

If none of this rings true, I can assure that every word is the
truth.

But why did it take you so long, Alun?

What study methods did you use?

And note that here in the USA, full privileges have been available
with just a 5 wpm code test *since 1990*. Of course a medical waiver
was needed before 2000, but all such a waiver required was a simple
letter from a medical doctor.

As I said, all of this has been posted here before, but not recently.
My
own history hasn't proved as effective as an argument as simply
pointing
out that none of the arguments in favour of retaining code testing
hold as
much water as a leaky bucket!

Apply you anticodetest arguments to the written tests. Tell us why most
of the written tests must remain. Heck, NCVEC is already trying to
trash the writtens even more...

Is it *really* so unreasonable to require Element 1? Particularly
considering the training aids and accomodations now available?

73 de Jim, N2EY