K4YZ wrote:

"Now You're Talking" is for folks with no prior background. The
idea being to introduce those who DON'T have that prior background.


They insisted that everyone had to buy the book, no matter their
background.


I offered to help maintain their club equipment but they
brushed me off because I don't have a ham ticket. I still have a
half
way decent RF bench, but nothing compared to the $1,000,000 plus
benches
of test equipment I had at Microdyne.

I am sure the offer was appreicated, Mike, it it IS an "Amateur
Radio" club. Do you have an aversion to getting licensed?



No, but If I had to send CW I would have to use a computer keyboard
because my hands are stiff and I have almost no feeling left, other than
a constant dull pain. The ability to do delicate work at any reasonable
speed is gone. I have severe tinitus and get migraines easily so
listening to the heterodynes and static quickly trigger headaches so I
can't even think about long hours of listening to HF signals like I did
as a kid.


Welcome to RRAP, wherein our resident
"used-to-be-an-engineer-and-know-everything-better-than-you"
representitive, Len "Lennie" Anderson endears himself and makes friends
by calling them Nazis, thugs, elitists, etc, then crying foul when
"called" on it.


Thanks!

Trust me on that if you haven't seen others' received
flak.

Trusting Lennie Anderson on ANYthing is like letting Jack
Kevorkian make your health care decisions for you.

Do a Google on ", ",
(before winter 2001, I believe...)

Lennie's "reputation" for honesty, trustworthiness and
dependability are less than adequate.

Still a professional electron pusher (and long-time
electronics hobbyist) but one doesn't do it during
regular office hours.

You don't do it during OFF hours either, judging by your complete
lack of evidence on ANY "hobbyist" project other than listening to the
ATIS at LAX on your scanner.

Hope you'll get a ticket at one level or another, Mike...there's
a lot of fun to be had...If some club was rude to you, don't think it's
the whole tamale.


I have been around hams and radio clubs since the '60s. Some are the
salt of the earth, and others are a pain in the ass just like any other
large group of people. One club was strictly for the rich blowhards who
did nothing but argue about who spent the most o their radios, had the
biggest lightning farm in their back 40 but they never seemed to do
anything but argue with each other. A few other small groups were
interested in homebrewing a complete station, and had a good grounding
in electronics. You could have conversations about equipment, design
and operating the equipment and they knew what they were talking about.
I helped start the ham radio club at my high school in the late '60s.
The school system provided us with a small corner for the radios and a
teacher for a couple hours a week so we could be in the school after
hours. I got people to donate dead radios and TVs. I repaired them,
sold them and raised close to $1000 to buy parts and equipment. As soon
as the station was on the air the three licensed hams in the club spent
all their time either on the air tying up all the equipment or arguing
that it wasn't their fault no one else could use it because they didn't
have a license, rather than do like they promised and help others learn
the code and get their ticket. Not long after that I was drafted and
spent a couple years in the Army. After that I did two way radio
repair, broadcast and electronics manufacturing. These days the only
mode i would enjoy would be VHF or higher, and I'd probably spend more
time building radios than using them. BTW, the board of directors of
the local club has a couple retired EEs who look down on everyone else
who doesn't have a degree, or hasn't been on the air for teen years or
more. I know a number of local hams who dropped out of the club and
gave up on ham radio altogether because of club politics. The only thing
they seem to do right is have their small hamfest at their club
headquarters and not charge people for a ticket to enter to buy or
browse. I went to the last one to try to find some old friends and came
home with a full truckload of parts and damaged old equipment to repair
or use for parts. I ran into a half dozen people I had lost contact
with and had a little fun, till my legs gave out.

When I lived in Ohio I sold parts and reconditioned equipment at the
Dayton and Cincinnati hamfests. I made a lot of friends and had a lot
of repeat customers but I find very few hams in Florida who even know
which end of a soldering iron to pick up. I had on guy yelling at me at
the last hamfest I sold at because I had computer cable and connectors,
but they weren't assembled. He was yelling, The day I can't buy what I
need already assembled, is the day i sell my station. I politely
suggested he sell it right away and do other hams a big favor by getting
off the air.



73

Steve, K4YZ

--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

cl wrote:




Leave it in, take it out, the riff raff is already invading the bands.


Like the clowns that hung out at 14.313 back in the days
when hams who could operate there had to pass a
13WPM or higher code test?

I'm not a "lover" of code, but I have hold a
license
which required code.


Requirements are fine as long as they are sensible. Back
50 years ago it made sense to require code. Today...?

"Bert Craig" wrote in message
...
"Barry OGrady" wrote in message
...
Morse gone by the beginning of last year.

Barry

Sad that many folks will likely never give themselves the opportunity to
bag some of that rare DX that seems to only show up on the bottom of the
bands.

Just bagged HZ1EX on 7013 kHz. 99.999% CW op and luvin' it.

--
Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI
FISTS #9384/CC #1736
QRP ARCI #11782


Know what you mean. I just received a card from the 2003 Burkina Faso
DXpedition and would not have bagged it without CW. And I'm only a so-so CW
op that just uses it for major contests.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Hey, wait a minnit here . . we also had to walk uphill both ways to the
FCC offices in raging blizzards.

Ya WEENIES . . . grumble . .


And that was in the summer! I had to do a code sending
test at 5wpm at the old FCC field office in New York City
(I've heard the place is now condos).

From: "Mel A. Nomah" on Mon,Apr 18 2005 4:28 pm


"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...

:
: I've looked at some of the older questions. The only thing about
them
: that is difficult is that they tend to pertain to operating with
: equipment and different condition than today.
:

No, the only thing harder was that those were just samples, and you
had to
actually understand the underlying material because the question on
the
examination would be different.

Fromyour description of "take the online test until I can pass it,
then
rush down to the VE session", I expect that you'd be another Len
Anderson
under those conditions, on the outside looking in.

Tsk, tsk, tsk, "Melanoma," I've been INSIDE the world of
electronics and radio for the last half century. Slightly
MORE than a half century. As a professional, that is.

Gave up trying to add an amateur radio license to the
old (1956 granted) First 'Phone license collection about
four decades ago (give or take). I thought it might be
nice to take it up again now in retirement, like for fun,
but U.S. amateur radio seems to have evolved into
SERIOUS BUSINESS! Everyone all uptight and demanding
absolute and instant obediance from all the Dill
Instructors swaggering about, trying to whack the
hobbyists into SHAPE for the SERVICE!!! :-)

I don't see where many are into ham radio for "fun" in
here. All are acting like RADDIO KOPS, complete with
shiny badges of RANK, etc. :-)

Good luck on your chemotherapy...

"Cmd Buzz Corey" wrote in message
...
cl wrote:



For some - it may! One argument I've heard, is that those musically
inclined pick it up quicker than others, yet I knew some who "were"
musically inclined and claimed to have a hell of a time with it. Reason?
I don't know. I can't get inside their head.

I used to teach Novice classes, and I always assumed that anyone could
learn the code if they really wanted to. I found that some people had
difficulty telling the difference between a dit from a dah unless it was
sent very slowy and the dah made a lot longer than the dit, but when
sending a character that contained several dits or dahs or combinations,
they simply could not tell one from the other. It wasn't that they lacked
the skill to learn the code, I could right out characters in dits and dahs
on the board and they could recoginize them, it was an interpertation
problem with the brain of telling the sound of a dit from the sound of a
dah. People with hearing aids often had a difficult time.

You can get special tests and use special accomodations (such as code with
longer dahs than normal making for more of a distinction in dits and dahs)
if their hearing is truly a problem. My ex had a 70% hearing loss in each
ear AND constant ringing in the ears. However, he managed his 5wpm without
special accomodations other than using headphones and a very loud volume.
Other people might need a different pitch or need the dits and dahs
separated by pitch either for their initial learning exercise or even for
the test.

People with hearing aids will often have problems with many sounds not just
code. The training and test material must be set to a pitch that they can
hear.

The number one reason people have problem with code is unrealistic
expectations on how quickly they can learn it. They see the "wunderkinds"
who can do it in a few days and think they are failures if they can't
duplicate it. In reality the average person needs TWO MONTHS OF DAILY
PRACTICE FOR 30 MINUTES PER DAY. Until they have done that, they can't say
whether they have a problem learning it or not. And of course they must
use good training methods. After that period of time, even if they don't
yet have it down, they will be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

The second biggest reason people have a problem with code is simply not
committing to learning it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
cl wrote:


which required code. 5 WPM is not impossible to learn. It only takes a
few minutes a day and about 2 weeks at least to get enough to pass a
test.

Took me 45 minutes a day for over 6 months, plus one failed test to get to
5 wpm.

I'm all in favor of Morse code testing, but you guys have to show some
understanding that it isn't that easy for a lot of people.

I aced the writtens, without a whole lot of study by comparison to a lot
of people. I don't go around calling them retards or stupid.

- Mike KB3EIA -

I agree with you Mike. I hate it when I hear someone say "it only took me a
few days" as that raises unrealistic expectations on the part of the
students. It becomes very hard to convince them that they will probably
need more time than that and to keep them motivated to keep working on it.
The average person needs 30 hours of study (1/2 per EVERY day for 60 days)
to get there. Some will take longer such as yourself but at least once they
have put in the 30 hours, they will be able to tell that they are making
progress even if it takes longer for them.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote:

"Caveat," I was in the military, the United States Army,
voluntary enlistment beginning 13 March 1953. Went from
Basic to Signal School at Fort Monmouth, NJ. Amount of
Signal School time spent on morse code? ZERO! NO class,
NO "cramming."


Len, I was drafted in 1972. I was working in a TV shop and repairing
ham radios on the side. They told me I would either drive a truck or be
a cook. I raised hell. I was told by the draft board that if I didn't
have a background in electronics they would not only not draft me, but
they wouldn't even let me enlist because of my health. So a couple
months later I'm yelling at an E8 and a Captain that I was not going to
drive a truck, and I was not going to cook. I told them about the
conversation with my draft board. The sergeant laughed and told me "I'm
going to do you a favor and prove you don't know the first dam thing
about electronics" He scheduled a 6 AM for me to take the 26T20 MOS
test which was called" Television equipment repairman" It was the
Army's equivalent of the FCC first class ticket. They pulled every
trick in the book to make sure I failed, including ripping the last two
pages from the test so only 88 of the 110 questions were there. I had 2
hours & 15 minutes to take the test. I turned it in 17 minutes later.
The sergeant laughed and said, I see you've given up. I grinned and
said, No, I'm done. He started grading it and his eyes kept getting
larger. He got to the end ant went over it two more times then stuck
out his hand and said, "Son, I apologize. You got 82 of the 88
questions right. That's the best score I've seen on this test, even
when I had the full copy." I was awarded 26T20 as a civilian acquired
skill that was a three year school at Ft. Monmoth. I worked in CATV,
CARS, installed a nice PA system for the General's conference room at Ft
Rucker, and did a little RADAR before I was sent to Alaska to the AFRTS
radio & TV station to work as one of the engineers. I made E4 in 18
months and received a letter of commendation from the commanding general
of the three Army bases in Alaska.


After my release from active duty in 1956, I thought it
good to get a Commercial Radiotelephone License. Lots of
job opportunities with that then. Couldn't find a Q&A
book in town but I got a copy of the entire FCC regulations
from a good guy at a local broadcast station, studied that
and got my First 'Phone on the first sitting in Chicago,
90 miles away (didn't walk, rode the train, kept my shoes
on even if there was no snow). Moved to L.A. at the end of
'56, started at Art Center School of Design to become an
illustrator. Worked during the day at Hughes Aircraft,
found out that illustrators didn't make much money, liked
electronics (already spent three years in Army
communications) and switched to Electronics Engineering.
Took me 15 years to complete that due to job requirements
making me miss whole semesters. Got engineering
responsibility, title, and pay before any "certificate"
(suitable for framing) awarded (sheep did not sacrifice
their skins for graduates, regardless of what is said).


Just before I got out of the Army the FCC stopped allowing veterans
to convert the 26T20 rating to a First phone without taking the test
again. I was bored with broadcast anyway so I did commercial sound and
industrial electronics. Later I did early personal computer and monitor
repair.

Several engineers at Microdyne wanted to know why I didn't have an EE
degree because I knew more about some of our older products than they
did. They also knew they couldn't bull**** me when I limped into
engineering with a handful of papers. I was there for results. I could
walk into the engineering department and the place would go quiet as
they looked for any excuse to grab something and leave through the other
hallway. It didn't take them long to find out that I not only found a
problem, I had found a least one valid solution. My supervisor laughed
and told me, "You just won't take no for an answer, will you?" I
shrugged and said, No, and I won't take "Yes" if I don't believe them.


In between semesters, I thought it a neat thing to learn
this morse code stuff, get a fancy callsign to "sign
after my name" (youth can be misleading on what is
important). Got to roughly 8 WPM clean copy using
practice tapes (magnetic, reel-to-reel, cassettes had
not yet been invented in those 60s days). Stopped after
that plateau, wondered "whatinhell am I doing spending
all this time on morse?" I'd already spent three full
years on Army communications at a major station (220
thousand messages a month in 1955), had become a
supervisor, did finally work on microwave radio relay
operations in the service, was now an employee of Ramo-
Wooldridge Corp. in electronic warfare group, and the
Class D CBs had already started. I'd gotten the First
'Phone, worked on HF, was now working on more of the EM
spectrum than any ham of today can use, already had a
good home workshop and was coming along on professional
design. I didn't "NEED MORSE" to GET ON THE AIR. I had
already done that, perfectly legal, without fault.

I had tossed the idea of getting a "title" (the callsign)
since there was MUCH MORE electronics coming along. The
first of the ICs had already hit the market and some of
us were tinkering with the first personal computers,
rolling our own without benefit of MITs or Apple or SwTP
kits (hadn't come out yet). PLENTY of fun and games in
electronics AND radio to be interested in.

I used to "pass a test" every week...on payday. If
I didn't KNOW what was needed on the job, to do the
things my bosses had given me responsibility for, I
wouldn't "pass that exam." No paycheck. Bye.

I never failed such an exam. I never failed any exam
in college courses, either. I just kept on working
in engineering design...and having to constantly keep
on learning. The state of the electronics arts have
NOT ceased to advance...not one iota of stopping.


After all the early problems with engineering my supervisor was asked
to release me to them to be an EET on their newest DSP based telemetry
system. They knew I would iron out a lot of problems before the radio
hit the production floor. I redesigned several test fixtures and
re-wrote most of the test procedures into a form the guys on the floor
could follow. Then I went through all the BS of our becoming ISO 9001
certified. I told my bosses that they better keep the UL inspector away
from my bench during their quarterly audits because I didn't mind
calling an idiot an idiot to their face.

We had basic models that were customized to the customer's needs. I
also did a lot of preliminary testing of new components, boards, and
modules before they were released to production so I had a lot of data
books and marked drawings on my bench. ISO 9001, as they set it up did
not let the techs keep any notes or write anything on any drawing for
future reference. I was no longer allowed to maintain test software I
wrote for an automated test fixture and I didn't want a pencil pushing
outsider in my way while I was working. I had a 350 MHz four channel
scope on my bench, but if a test procedure specified a 20 Mhz scope the
idiots insisted that you couldn't use the 20 Mhz filter in a better
scope. Even worse, they sent someone new for every audit so we had to
go through the same mess each time. One would insist a process was
wrong. We would change it to suit him or her. The next one wanted it
changed back.

BTW I worked on almost every board or module for a special broadband
telemetry receiver we built for the International Space Station. These
days I work on old ham receivers and test equipment when I feel well
enough to spend a couple hours at the bench.


--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Mike Andrews" wrote in message
...
In (rec.radio.amateur.misc), Cmd
Buzz Corey wrote:

I used to teach Novice classes, and I always assumed that anyone could
learn the code if they really wanted to. I found that some people had
difficulty telling the difference between a dit from a dah unless it was
sent very slowy and the dah made a lot longer than the dit, but when
sending a character that contained several dits or dahs or combinations,
they simply could not tell one from the other. It wasn't that they
lacked the skill to learn the code, I could right out characters in dits
and dahs on the board and they could recoginize them, it was an
interpertation problem with the brain of telling the sound of a dit from
the sound of a dah. People with hearing aids often had a difficult time.

You hit that part right on the head. My XYL has a deep notch in her
hearing
response curve, from about 400 Hz to about 2 KHz, due to playing viola in
a symphony orchestra for 15 years, sitting right in front of the brass
section[1]. She's having the very devil of a time with Morse, mostly
because she has problems distinguishing between dit and dah. She has
learned not to trust her ears, and now she's trying to learn to read with
them. The deep notch right where most people tune to read CW and where the
various tapes, CDs, and tutor programs all put the tone, also makes it
very
difficult for her.


Most of the computer programs let you select a pitch you like. Of course
you would have to arrange with the VE team well in advance of the test to
have one set up at that pitch for her testing.

Or just make sure that you can turn the volume WAY up just like my ex had to
(70% hearing loss in each ear and constant ringing of the ears).

When she passes Element 1, I have to go learn American Sign Language and
pass a proficiency test.


Sounds fair to me.

[1] I'll bet most people don't think much about hearing damage in people
playing in symphony orchestras. It's fairly common.


Being an amateur musician, I've read quite a bit about it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Mel A. Nomah" wrote in message
link.net...

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...

:
: I've looked at some of the older questions. The only thing about them
: that is difficult is that they tend to pertain to operating with
: equipment and different condition than today.
:

No, the only thing harder was that those were just samples, and you had to
actually understand the underlying material because the question on the
examination would be different.

From your description of "take the online test until I can pass it, then
rush down to the VE session", I expect that you'd be another Len Anderson
under those conditions, on the outside looking in.

M.A.N.
--
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord,
make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."
- Voltaire


The test pools are large enough that it's much easier to learn the material
than memorize all the questions and answers. The Extra class pool is
something like 800 questions even though only 50 appear on the test. I'd
much rather learn the equation and how to use it than try to memorize say 10
different question/answer combinations for the material covered by that
equation.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE