K4YZ wrote:
bb wrote:
John Smith wrote:

Len:

Yes, they do look the part of ancient toothless bullies--the faint of
heart have fled in fear before their rants (as so have the women,
children, small animals and gays)...

And they ask who chased away the No Code Techs.

Who chased away the NCT's, Brain...?!?!

You keep reiterating this assinine assertion that is, in fact,
untruthful, yet you continue to DODGE answering the question?

I talked with two NCT's on the way home fromwork last night...They
weren't lost..knew right where they were.

Perhaps you didn't see Dee, Dan and Dave's prejudice in the "Where are
All the Techs" thread. It's all pretty self-explanatory, and as plain
as that gut of yours in the QRZ photo.

They are at a loss when brave men stand their ground and question their
faulty logic... reduces 'em to personal attacks and gutter fighting
quickly...

You've just described Steven J. Robeson.

And yet another lie...from a "guy" who finds it easy to lie.

How can a highly accurate assessment of your behavio[u]r be a lie?

Putz Jr.

Steve, K4YZ

And there's the "Robber's Son" trademark male genitalia fixation, again.

"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...


K4YZ wrote:
bb wrote:
John Smith wrote:

Len:

Yes, they do look the part of ancient toothless bullies--the faint of
heart have fled in fear before their rants (as so have the women,
children, small animals and gays)...

And they ask who chased away the No Code Techs.

Who chased away the NCT's, Brain...?!?!

You keep reiterating this assinine assertion that is, in fact,
untruthful, yet you continue to DODGE answering the question?

I talked with two NCT's on the way home fromwork last night...They
weren't lost..knew right where they were.

Perhaps you didn't see Dee, Dan and Dave's prejudice in the "Where are
All the Techs" thread. It's all pretty self-explanatory, and as plain
as that gut of yours in the QRZ photo.


Interesting how you can derive prejudice from a simple question.

I honestly wanted to know why, in a VHF/UHF contest, I wasn't contacting
more Techs since they are "trapped above 30MHz by the code test" as some
would have us believe. When Technicians are nearly half of all licensed
hams, why were they only about 5% of my contacts? Extra's are only about
16% of the total and yet they were about 90% of the contacts.

Those who maintain that the Techs are "trapped" are creating a
self-fulfilling prophecy by convincing the Techs that they are not capable
of passing code. In the long term, that is an approach that harms amateur
radio. Even if the code test is someday eliminated, it is wrong to gain
support for it by convincing people that they are not capable of passing it.
This can and will prevent people from attempting to pursue learning this
aspect of ham radio.

Every ham at every level should be encouraged to believe in their ABILITY to
master any and all of the elements even if the element is not a required
one. Whether they choose to pursue it is a different issue but we should
encourage them to believe in themselves and not tear down their self esteem.
Yet we have some people maintaining that the code should be dropped because
some people "can't learn it and are trapped above 30MHz." By maintaining
this attitude they are the ones putting down the Techs and showing their
prejudices. They would trample on other's self esteem to obtain their
objectives.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...


K4YZ wrote:
bb wrote:
John Smith wrote:

Len:

Yes, they do look the part of ancient toothless bullies--the faint of
heart have fled in fear before their rants (as so have the women,
children, small animals and gays)...

And they ask who chased away the No Code Techs.

Who chased away the NCT's, Brain...?!?!

You keep reiterating this assinine assertion that is, in fact,
untruthful, yet you continue to DODGE answering the question?

I talked with two NCT's on the way home fromwork last night...They
weren't lost..knew right where they were.

Perhaps you didn't see Dee, Dan and Dave's prejudice in the "Where are
All the Techs" thread. It's all pretty self-explanatory, and as plain
as that gut of yours in the QRZ photo.


Interesting how you can derive prejudice from a simple question.

But looikg ahead I ask why you seem to expect that Tech are interested
in the same things (contesting) as you are.

I honestly wanted to know why, in a VHF/UHF contest, I wasn't contacting
more Techs since they are "trapped above 30MHz by the code test" as some
would have us believe. When Technicians are nearly half of all licensed
hams, why were they only about 5% of my contacts? Extra's are only about
16% of the total and yet they were about 90% of the contacts.

That the numbers will be lobesided is obvious Tech as a class less
experncedoperators and likely to have less time in etc. therefore they
are likely to have stations less well equiped.

I will now add some coment of MY thoughts and experences

Frankly contest opperating has little appleal to me, I do Field Day
fairly often which kida exhausts my level of interest in contesting

Further I rarely hear of VHFor UHF contest till about a week after they
happen

Those who maintain that the Techs are "trapped" are creating a
self-fulfilling prophecy by convincing the Techs that they are not capable

Now where is this from? Not capple? well I am not (5 years of trying
for a Novice license in the 70's basicaly convinced me, maybe if I
beged for enough accomdation I could manage a receieve only test by why
should I?)


But No one is arguing that Tech can't learn code, some do and some will
even after the code test is history, It is a burden that isn't waranted
by the value of Morse Code

of passing code. In the long term, that is an approach that harms amateur
radio. Even if the code test is someday eliminated, it is wrong to gain
support for it by convincing people that they are not capable of passing it.

Red herring

This can and will prevent people from attempting to pursue learning this
aspect of ham radio.

Personally I hope so as I believe it is a mode that should be laid to
rest

Every ham at every level should be encouraged to believe in their ABILITY to

Why? and what is your point, since noone but you is saying that techs
can't

master any and all of the elements even if the element is not a required
one. Whether they choose to pursue it is a different issue but we should
encourage them to believe in themselves and not tear down their self esteem.
Yet we have some people maintaining that the code should be dropped because
some people "can't learn it and are trapped above 30MHz." By maintaining

And some folks are 5 years taking a test a every week or two and
practiceing half and per day 5 days a week (study hall) did not mange
it isn't likely any levl of effort would achieve results today

this attitude they are the ones putting down the Techs and showing their
prejudices. They would trample on other's self esteem to obtain their
objectives.

Frankly doesn't look like you are reading closely


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

bb wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
bb wrote:
John Smith wrote:

Len:

Yes, they do look the part of ancient toothless bullies--the faint of
heart have fled in fear before their rants (as so have the women,
children, small animals and gays)...

And they ask who chased away the No Code Techs.

Who chased away the NCT's, Brain...?!?!

You keep reiterating this assinine assertion that is, in fact,
untruthful, yet you continue to DODGE answering the question?

I talked with two NCT's on the way home fromwork last night...They
weren't lost..knew right where they were.

Perhaps you didn't see Dee, Dan and Dave's prejudice in the "Where are
All the Techs" thread. It's all pretty self-explanatory, and as plain
as that gut of yours in the QRZ photo.

What "gut"..?!?! You continue to inist that there's a "gut" yet
in doing so you only substantiate my claim that Brian P Burke is a
chronic liar.

Do you lie like this to your wife? Your kids? Your employer?
Your Scouts?

As for the Techs issue, it must be a North Of The Mason-Dixon
thing because I continue to "work" NCT's on a daily basis.

They are at a loss when brave men stand their ground and question their
faulty logic... reduces 'em to personal attacks and gutter fighting
quickly...

You've just described Steven J. Robeson.

And yet another lie...from a "guy" who finds it easy to lie.

How can a highly accurate assessment of your behavio[u]r be a lie?

Becasue it's not accurate.

Putz Jr.

Steve, K4YZ

And there's the "Robber's Son" trademark male genitalia fixation, again.

Again another lie.

And they keep stacking up...

Steve, K4YZ

"an_old_friend" wrote in message
oups.com...


Dee Flint wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...


K4YZ wrote:
bb wrote:
John Smith wrote:

Len:

Yes, they do look the part of ancient toothless bullies--the faint
of
heart have fled in fear before their rants (as so have the women,
children, small animals and gays)...

And they ask who chased away the No Code Techs.

Who chased away the NCT's, Brain...?!?!

You keep reiterating this assinine assertion that is, in fact,
untruthful, yet you continue to DODGE answering the question?

I talked with two NCT's on the way home fromwork last night...They
weren't lost..knew right where they were.

Perhaps you didn't see Dee, Dan and Dave's prejudice in the "Where are
All the Techs" thread. It's all pretty self-explanatory, and as plain
as that gut of yours in the QRZ photo.


Interesting how you can derive prejudice from a simple question.

But looikg ahead I ask why you seem to expect that Tech are interested
in the same things (contesting) as you are.

I expect some percentage will be not all. Just as there is only a small
percentage of Generals, Advanced, and Extras who are interested in
contesting. However one would expect the largest group of licensees to be
the largest group represented in the frequency bands where that group has
full privileges.


I honestly wanted to know why, in a VHF/UHF contest, I wasn't contacting
more Techs since they are "trapped above 30MHz by the code test" as some
would have us believe. When Technicians are nearly half of all licensed
hams, why were they only about 5% of my contacts? Extra's are only about
16% of the total and yet they were about 90% of the contacts.

That the numbers will be lobesided is obvious Tech as a class less
experncedoperators and likely to have less time in etc. therefore they
are likely to have stations less well equiped.


But according to some, they have been "trapped" for years and have had
plenty of time to gain experience and equipment.

I will now add some coment of MY thoughts and experences

Frankly contest opperating has little appleal to me, I do Field Day
fairly often which kida exhausts my level of interest in contesting


No problem. It's not for everyone.

Further I rarely hear of VHFor UHF contest till about a week after they
happen

That's simply because you are not interested in contests. Again not a
problem. For those who are interested, they are published well in advance
on various websites.


Those who maintain that the Techs are "trapped" are creating a
self-fulfilling prophecy by convincing the Techs that they are not
capable

Now where is this from? Not capple? well I am not (5 years of trying
for a Novice license in the 70's basicaly convinced me, maybe if I
beged for enough accomdation I could manage a receieve only test by why
should I?)


That basically proves my subsequent arguments that you have been incorrectly
convinced you are not capable. It is dependent on the training approach.
Way too many people have been subjected to incorrect training methods and/or
poor teachers.


But No one is arguing that Tech can't learn code, some do and some will
even after the code test is history, It is a burden that isn't waranted
by the value of Morse Code


That's a matter of opinion only. However if the majority of hams
EXPERIENCED in the mode were to support dropping it, I would accept that.
It is only objectionable when the inexperienced try to rationalize why it
should be dropped.

of passing code. In the long term, that is an approach that harms
amateur
radio. Even if the code test is someday eliminated, it is wrong to gain
support for it by convincing people that they are not capable of passing
it.

Red herring


Not hardly. It is always harmful to convince people that they are
incapable.

This can and will prevent people from attempting to pursue learning this
aspect of ham radio.

Personally I hope so as I believe it is a mode that should be laid to
rest

What harm to you is there is those who like it continue to operate it? This
is very much a "sour grapes" type of thinking.


Every ham at every level should be encouraged to believe in their ABILITY
to

Why? and what is your point, since noone but you is saying that techs
can't


I have always said that they can learn it. Just check the archives. It has
not been me saying they aren't capable.

We should encourage people to believe in themselves so that they can be the
best they can be regardless of whether it is ham radio or something else.

master any and all of the elements even if the element is not a required
one. Whether they choose to pursue it is a different issue but we should
encourage them to believe in themselves and not tear down their self
esteem.
Yet we have some people maintaining that the code should be dropped
because
some people "can't learn it and are trapped above 30MHz." By maintaining

And some folks are 5 years taking a test a every week or two and
practiceing half and per day 5 days a week (study hall) did not mange
it isn't likely any levl of effort would achieve results today


Wrong training method and/or bad teacher. It is as simple as that. Correct
training methods and a proper teacher do produce results.

this attitude they are the ones putting down the Techs and showing their
prejudices. They would trample on other's self esteem to obtain their
objectives.

Frankly doesn't look like you are reading closely


I'm reading very closely. It is those who advocate the removal of the test
who promulgate the concept that some people "can't" learn code. If they
would just be honest and say they don't want to learn the code, I'd respect
that but not agree with dropping it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...


K4YZ wrote:

bb wrote:

John Smith wrote:


Len:

Yes, they do look the part of ancient toothless bullies--the faint of
heart have fled in fear before their rants (as so have the women,
children, small animals and gays)...

And they ask who chased away the No Code Techs.

Who chased away the NCT's, Brain...?!?!

You keep reiterating this assinine assertion that is, in fact,
untruthful, yet you continue to DODGE answering the question?

I talked with two NCT's on the way home fromwork last night...They
weren't lost..knew right where they were.

Perhaps you didn't see Dee, Dan and Dave's prejudice in the "Where are
All the Techs" thread. It's all pretty self-explanatory, and as plain
as that gut of yours in the QRZ photo.



Interesting how you can derive prejudice from a simple question.

Probably becuase the question often gets answers that are not in line
with other people's prejudices.

I honestly wanted to know why, in a VHF/UHF contest, I wasn't contacting
more Techs since they are "trapped above 30MHz by the code test" as some
would have us believe. When Technicians are nearly half of all licensed
hams, why were they only about 5% of my contacts? Extra's are only about
16% of the total and yet they were about 90% of the contacts.

Most Technicians are doing exactly what they want. Some are satisfied
with getting on the local repeater, some are helping with public service
and event support, which again is either 2m simplex or repeater work.

Those who want to upgrade, do upgrade.

Those who maintain that the Techs are "trapped" are creating a
self-fulfilling prophecy by convincing the Techs that they are not capable
of passing code.

Frankly I doubt too many Techs are convinced by that sort of argument.

The only people (with one exception) who are trapped are those who for
some reason allow themselves to be. The exception is those very, very
few who for some reason are truly incapable. BUt that number is
vanishingly small.



Every ham at every level should be encouraged to believe in their ABILITY to
master any and all of the elements even if the element is not a required
one. Whether they choose to pursue it is a different issue but we should
encourage them to believe in themselves and not tear down their self esteem.



Yet we have some people maintaining that the code should be dropped because
some people "can't learn it and are trapped above 30MHz." By maintaining
this attitude they are the ones putting down the Techs and showing their
prejudices.

Some people cannot pass the written tests either. Does not being able
to pass the General test also trap you above 30 MHz? Not passing the
Extra trap you out of the Extra segments?

Does not being able to pass the Technician test trap you out of Amateur
radio? If I don't want to learn the satellite operation questions, is
that an unfair thing, and should those questions be removed so I don't
have to learn the answers to those questions?

Those who would have the Technicians be the "oppressed victims" do hate
those questions.

They would trample on other's self esteem to obtain their
objectives.

Correct! If a person hates Morse code, that is fine. It's a free
country. But The concept of people being "trapped" above 30 MHz is a
sympathy ploy that has no relation to the reality of people wanting more
priveliges, and doing what is needed to get them.

I had some people telling me to wait to get my General, because the
Morse code requirement is going away "any day now". That was in 1999.
Just about 6 years ago. I guess it was a good thing I didn't listen to
them! 8^)

But that is the tale I give the new guys who are interested in
upgrading. Don't wait. Learn what you need to learn. If the requirement
goes away, all you will have lost is the time spent learning Morse, and
you will have traded that time for some skill and knowledge. Then I ask
if 6 years of not being on HF is worth *not* learning Morse code.

- Mike KB3EIA -

K4YZ wrote:
bb wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
bb wrote:
John Smith wrote:

Len:

Yes, they do look the part of ancient toothless bullies--the faint of
heart have fled in fear before their rants (as so have the women,
children, small animals and gays)...

And they ask who chased away the No Code Techs.

Who chased away the NCT's, Brain...?!?!

You keep reiterating this assinine assertion that is, in fact,
untruthful, yet you continue to DODGE answering the question?

I talked with two NCT's on the way home fromwork last night...They
weren't lost..knew right where they were.

Perhaps you didn't see Dee, Dan and Dave's prejudice in the "Where are
All the Techs" thread. It's all pretty self-explanatory, and as plain
as that gut of yours in the QRZ photo.

What "gut"..?!?! You continue to inist that there's a "gut" yet
in doing so you only substantiate my claim that Brian P Burke is a
chronic liar.


break

Do you lie like this to your wife? Your kids? Your employer?
Your Scouts?

Your stopped beating your wife and kids?


As for the Techs issue, it must be a North Of The Mason-Dixon
thing because I continue to "work" NCT's on a daily basis.

Yeah I bet you work em, work em over if they don't mind what you see as
there place


They are at a loss when brave men stand their ground and question their
faulty logic... reduces 'em to personal attacks and gutter fighting
quickly...

You've just described Steven J. Robeson.

And yet another lie...from a "guy" who finds it easy to lie.

How can a highly accurate assessment of your behavio[u]r be a lie?

Becasue it's not accurate.

Putz Jr.

And there's the "Robber's Son" trademark male genitalia fixation,
again.
right above is another examaple'


Steve, K4YZ

And there's the "Robber's Son" trademark male genitalia fixation, again.

Again another lie.

Nope

And they keep stacking up...

Steve, K4YZ

Michael Coslo wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...


K4YZ wrote:

bb wrote:

John Smith wrote:


Len:

Yes, they do look the part of ancient toothless bullies--the faint of
heart have fled in fear before their rants (as so have the women,
children, small animals and gays)...

And they ask who chased away the No Code Techs.

Who chased away the NCT's, Brain...?!?!

You keep reiterating this assinine assertion that is, in fact,
untruthful, yet you continue to DODGE answering the question?

I talked with two NCT's on the way home fromwork last night...They
weren't lost..knew right where they were.

Perhaps you didn't see Dee, Dan and Dave's prejudice in the "Where are
All the Techs" thread. It's all pretty self-explanatory, and as plain
as that gut of yours in the QRZ photo.



Interesting how you can derive prejudice from a simple question.

Probably becuase the question often gets answers that are not in line
with other people's prejudices.

I honestly wanted to know why, in a VHF/UHF contest, I wasn't contacting
more Techs since they are "trapped above 30MHz by the code test" as some
would have us believe. When Technicians are nearly half of all licensed
hams, why were they only about 5% of my contacts? Extra's are only about
16% of the total and yet they were about 90% of the contacts.

Most Technicians are doing exactly what they want. Some are satisfied
with getting on the local repeater, some are helping with public service
and event support, which again is either 2m simplex or repeater work.

Those who want to upgrade, do upgrade.

Those who maintain that the Techs are "trapped" are creating a
self-fulfilling prophecy by convincing the Techs that they are not capable
of passing code.

Frankly I doubt too many Techs are convinced by that sort of argument.

The only people (with one exception) who are trapped are those who for
some reason allow themselves to be. The exception is those very, very
few who for some reason are truly incapable. BUt that number is
vanishingly small.



Every ham at every level should be encouraged to believe in their ABILITY to
master any and all of the elements even if the element is not a required
one. Whether they choose to pursue it is a different issue but we should
encourage them to believe in themselves and not tear down their self esteem.



Yet we have some people maintaining that the code should be dropped because
some people "can't learn it and are trapped above 30MHz." By maintaining
this attitude they are the ones putting down the Techs and showing their
prejudices.

Some people cannot pass the written tests either. Does not being able
to pass the General test also trap you above 30 MHz? Not passing the
Extra trap you out of the Extra segments?

Does not being able to pass the Technician test trap you out of Amateur
radio? If I don't want to learn the satellite operation questions, is
that an unfair thing, and should those questions be removed so I don't
have to learn the answers to those questions?

But your analogy is false if you don't wish to learn about satelite
operation then don't it will not keep you from passing the test.
Perfect score is NOT required in order to pass

I don't claim to have plotted it but I beleive you even choose not to
learn the rules of the ARS and still pass the test. ( not that I would
recmend such a course)

Futher No one has suggested removing from the question pools all
content regarding Morse Encoded CW, but the current state of affairs
make Morse encoded CW more important than all of the rest of Ham radio,
something that is clearly not the case and unfairly enhances the
previldges of those to whom it comes more easily

An alterenitve would of course be to discuss wether or not the ARS
would be better off with a fee based license sructure, with the fees
reservsed for ARS enforcement. Not sure I endorse the idea fully but I
do think it has enough merit to discuss, or even asome from of mixed
system of fees or tests and fees or just tests with the pathways
choosen by each of us I think that has ral merit but I doubt the FCC
would ever go for it,

But it does seem forbidden to even discuss something like that


Those who would have the Technicians be the "oppressed victims" do hate
those questions.

They would trample on other's self esteem to obtain their
objectives.

Correct! If a person hates Morse code, that is fine. It's a free
country. But The concept of people being "trapped" above 30 MHz is a
sympathy ploy that has no relation to the reality of people wanting more
priveliges, and doing what is needed to get them.

false again. it is not a matter of sympathy but of law, the
constitution, rights, all those little thing that get in the of petty
(or grand) tyrants


I had some people telling me to wait to get my General, because the
Morse code requirement is going away "any day now". That was in 1999.
Just about 6 years ago. I guess it was a good thing I didn't listen to
them! 8^)

But that is the tale I give the new guys who are interested in
upgrading. Don't wait. Learn what you need to learn. If the requirement
goes away, all you will have lost is the time spent learning Morse, and
you will have traded that time for some skill and knowledge. Then I ask
if 6 years of not being on HF is worth *not* learning Morse code.

Certainly is I spent 5 years on it that was a waste and in those it
kept you off HF and VHF and.... I traded my time for nothing

Indeed the Tale I tell is decide if you want HF, and then give morse
code a try, and if you try good luck with it, but please don't let
yourself get down about it.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Michael Coslo wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...


K4YZ wrote:

bb wrote:

John Smith wrote:


Len:

Yes, they do look the part of ancient toothless bullies--the faint of
heart have fled in fear before their rants (as so have the women,
children, small animals and gays)...

And they ask who chased away the No Code Techs.

Who chased away the NCT's, Brain...?!?!

You keep reiterating this assinine assertion that is, in fact,
untruthful, yet you continue to DODGE answering the question?

I talked with two NCT's on the way home fromwork last night...They
weren't lost..knew right where they were.

Perhaps you didn't see Dee, Dan and Dave's prejudice in the "Where are
All the Techs" thread. It's all pretty self-explanatory, and as plain
as that gut of yours in the QRZ photo.



Interesting how you can derive prejudice from a simple question.

Probably becuase the question often gets answers that are not in line
with other people's prejudices.

Probably because the nature of the "simple" question is negative and is
seeking a like response.

Probably because further dialog confirms an already negative viewpoint
of No Code Techs.

Probably because Dan and Dave chimed in with negative responses as
well.

Probably because I have seen many Extras with such attitudes, many of
them right here on RRAP.

Probably because Robber's Son keeps asking who chased away the Techs
when the answer is so plainly visible.

bb wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...


K4YZ wrote:

bb wrote:

John Smith wrote:


Len:

Yes, they do look the part of ancient toothless bullies--the faint of
heart have fled in fear before their rants (as so have the women,
children, small animals and gays)...

And they ask who chased away the No Code Techs.

Who chased away the NCT's, Brain...?!?!

You keep reiterating this assinine assertion that is, in fact,
untruthful, yet you continue to DODGE answering the question?

I talked with two NCT's on the way home fromwork last night...They
weren't lost..knew right where they were.

Perhaps you didn't see Dee, Dan and Dave's prejudice in the "Where are
All the Techs" thread. It's all pretty self-explanatory, and as plain
as that gut of yours in the QRZ photo.



Interesting how you can derive prejudice from a simple question.

Probably becuase the question often gets answers that are not in line
with other people's prejudices.

Probably because the nature of the "simple" question is negative and is
seeking a like response.

The simple answer to your suggestion that the NCT's have all been
chased away is that they've NOT been all chased away.

Probably because further dialog confirms an already negative viewpoint
of No Code Techs.

I again insist that this must be a North of the Mason-Dixon line
issue. No such "negative viewpoint" exists here.

Maybe because we go out of the way to include them?

Probably because Dan and Dave chimed in with negative responses as
well.

Probably because I have seen many Extras with such attitudes, many of
them right here on RRAP.

Probably because Robber's Son keeps asking who chased away the Techs
when the answer is so plainly visible.

No, it's not.

You insist it's happened. I say it hasn't.

Even casual observation reveals that's not an accurate assessment.
Again I acknowledge that that is probably a regional experience.

Why do you continue to defame the character of a deceased honest
man?

Steve, K4YZ