"Phil Kane" wrote in message
ganews.com...
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:21:00 -0700, John Smith wrote:

... all the women I have ever tried to interest in radio... all have
declined doing anything towards getting a license... once they even see
a key and a code practice oscillator they look at me as if I am crazy
and ask, "You are kidding, right?"

Tell that to our friend Claire who is the NCS of the Beaver State
(CW) Traffic Net - high-speed CW. And she's no dummy - retired PhD
in a specialized field of the biological sciences.

So much for generalizations.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane



Definitely avoid generalizations. I originally got interested in ham radio
because my husband of the time asked me to be involved with him. Code was
part of the class and test. I didn't particularly have any feelings against
it or for it. However now I enjoy it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...


wrote:


Phil Kane wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:21:00 -0700, John Smith wrote:


... all the women I have ever tried to interest in radio... all have
declined doing anything towards getting a license... once they even see
a key and a code practice oscillator they look at me as if I am crazy
and ask, "You are kidding, right?"

Tell that to our friend Claire who is the NCS of the Beaver State
(CW) Traffic Net - high-speed CW. And she's no dummy - retired PhD
in a specialized field of the biological sciences.


. . . then there was the legendary traffic handler Mae Burke W3CUL who
was a neighborhood housewife . .


I can't imagine any person becoming a Ham because they simply want to
"chat with someone around the world".

In the first place most of my DX contacts are pretty terse, and don't
fulfill any "chatting needs". Not that I have chatting needs!

There certainly are women in Ham radio, and although a minority, they are
probably no more of a minority than women's representation in other
technical fields. This would mean that any problem is shared with those
other technical fields, and not a Ham radio specific problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Actually I know more women in ham radio than women in engineering.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
... oh, I love that argument!!! Let me see if I have it correctly,
either:

1) Women are too stupid for the technical fields.

How you managed to twist Mike's words to come up with this interpretation is
amazing. He neither said nor implied anything of the sort.


2) We are no worse than any other technical field about baring women.


He said nothing about barring women from technical fields. Again how you
managed to come up with this inverted interpretation is one of the mysteries
of the world. Women choose not to go into technical fields for their own
reasons. That includes hobby activities like ham radio.

ROLL!!!!!

John


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...


wrote:


Phil Kane wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:21:00 -0700, John Smith wrote:


... all the women I have ever tried to interest in radio... all have
declined doing anything towards getting a license... once they even see
a key and a code practice oscillator they look at me as if I am crazy
and ask, "You are kidding, right?"

Tell that to our friend Claire who is the NCS of the Beaver State
(CW) Traffic Net - high-speed CW. And she's no dummy - retired PhD
in a specialized field of the biological sciences.


. . . then there was the legendary traffic handler Mae Burke W3CUL who
was a neighborhood housewife . .


I can't imagine any person becoming a Ham because they simply want to
"chat with someone around the world".

In the first place most of my DX contacts are pretty terse, and don't
fulfill any "chatting needs". Not that I have chatting needs!

There certainly are women in Ham radio, and although a minority, they are
probably no more of a minority than women's representation in other
technical fields. This would mean that any problem is shared with those
other technical fields, and not a Ham radio specific problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
I think first you would have to get a noticeable number of women into ham
radio--then argue if they are being treated fairly--at this point they have
been effectively banned!!!

John


Not hardly.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...


wrote:



With all due respect, perhaps your skill at getting them
interested needs some improvement....

Given your attitude towards Morse Code, you'd be as
effective as the chairman of the National Beef Council
trying to get people to be vegetarians..

Wouldn't that be better the other way around, Jim? A vegetarian who hates
meat trying to get people to come to say a pig roast? ;^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
N2EY:

I am afraid that task of inducting enough women is beyond me--no one has
ever succeeded...

Just what percentage of amateurs are women? Do you even know?

I bet you damn well know they are rarer then space aliens sightings!!!

ROFLOL!!!

John


I'd bet the Young Ladies Radio League could come up with a pretty good
estimate. Also the Buckeye Bells may be able to do the same.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote in message
ups.com...
John Smith wrote:
... all the women I have ever tried to interest in radio...
all have
declined doing anything towards getting a license...
once they even see
a key and a code practice oscillator they look at me as
if I am crazy
and ask, "You are kidding, right?"

With all due respect, perhaps your skill at getting them
interested needs some improvement....

Given your attitude towards Morse Code, you'd be as
effective as the chairman of the National Beef Council
trying to get people to be vegetarians..

Then they grab their net-to-phone and/or keyboard and being
chatting
with canadians, so americans, mexicans, asians, aussies, brits, etc...

Which takes no radio and no license. So it's not about Morse Code,
but about different interests.

... and at this point it is hard for me to pose a logical
argument--

;-)

women are just smarter than men... you can't fool them...

Not about fooling, but about what people are interested in.

wrote in message
oups.com...
John Smith wrote:
... the amateur tests are a trivial problem to men with real
educations...

What about women with real educations?

Would you consider someone with a BSEE from the University of
Pennsylvania and an MSEE from Drexel University to have
"a real education"?

... the cw part

Is an amateur test. And is a trivial problem to people with
real educations..

makes as much sense as learning to play a "jew's
harp"--a lot of sense if you wish to, none if you don't...

Then why require someone with no interest in VHF-UHF to learn
those techniques in order to operate on HF? Why require
knowedge of FSK, PSK and other data modes to operate voice?
Why require knowledge of transistors and ICs to operate
vacuum-tube equipment?

IOW, why require anyone to learn anything about a subject they
are not interested in, just to get a license to do the things
they *are* interested in?

--

Perhaps what bothers some people the most about the code test
is that it isn't something most people already know. And it
isn't something that can be learned by reading a book, watching
a video, etc. It's a skill, not "book learning".

In learning the code, a Ph.D in EE has to start at the same place
as a grade-schooler. And the grade schooler may learn faster and
do better! Perhaps it is this characteristic of the test - its
ability to act as a Great Equalizer - that causes some to resent
it so much.

--

Warmest regards,
John

wrote in message
oups.com...
John Smith wrote:
It was never about anyone stopping you from sending cw was it...

A few anticode folks have stated they want Morse Code *use* by hams
to
end, not just the test. They are a small minority, but they do
exist.

It is about stopping you from forcing others to learn cw when they
would
never use it...

Who is "forced" to learn Morse Code?

It's a requirement if someone wants an FCC-issued amateur license
with
HF privileges, that's all.

Always when one is being forced to do something they do not wish
to,
they should question everything in sight... just as you began
when
you
thought someone was going to force you to quit...

The argument you present boils down to this: If someone doesn't
want
to
use Morse Code in ham radio, they shouldn't be required to learn it
just
to pass a test (even a simple, basic test) to get a ham radio
license.
Those who choose to use it can learn it on their own.

Is that about right?

The problem is that the same argument can be made against almost
everything
in the written tests. For example, if someone doesn't intend to use
certain
bands, why are they forced to learn the band edges of every band
their
license allows? If someone doesn't intend to use more than a few
watts
of
transmitted power, why must they learn all that RF exposure stuff?
Indeed,
if someone doesn't intend to homebrew, why are they *forced* to
learn
all
that theory stuff?

Sure, the written tests look easy to someone with a background in
radio,
electronics, computers or other related fields. But to someone from
an
unrelated field, they're not easy.

Suppose you met a retired gentleman who had been a radioman in the
military 50+ years ago. He'd always wanted to be a ham but never
had
the time or resources. Now he finds that ham radio still exists,
and
he wants in.

The gent can still do code well, and remembers the basics of theory
as it was 50+ years ago. He gets an HF receiver and listens to the
lovely Morse Code signals on the low ends of the HF bands.

But in order to join the folks on 7010 or 3520, he needs an Extra.
And the written test is full of stuff he's never seen before, and
that he will never use.

Why must he learn all that stuff he will never use just to pass the
tests?

Sure, the stuff is easy for *you*, but not for *him*.

... let's at least keep my comment about the drums straight...

Let's see...

Warmest regards,
John

"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
... that almost makes me miss the ancient drums my
great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-etc. ancestors
used
to
use to communicate with in the primordial jungles... I wonder
if
we
could bring those back to?

Invalid analogy.

Drums for communication aren't in wide use.

Morse Code for communication is in wide use in ham radio. Doesn't
need to be brought back because it's right here.

... perhaps require the new licensees to beat out a fancy
tempo
on
one
of those turkeys before we gave 'em a license!
evil-grin

Warmest regards,
John


Perhaps, John


But consider that some of us can send and receive cw faster than
most
folks can type.

Yup.

I know you may be good at "cut and paste", but that doesn't
necessarily cut
it LOL.

Sure, voice appears faster, but when you get names and addresses
that
are
hard to pronounce ....

Bingo.

For any message that needs to be written down, the speed limitation
is
usually the writing speed of the receiving op. The fact that
someone
can theoretically talks 150 wpm doesn't mean anything if the person
on the receiving end can only write legibly at 15 wpm.

Text modes are great if you have the hardware for them and if you
are in a situation where you can look at a screen to read them.

Not saying that CW is the best, but some folks better come up
with
something
superior to AM and FM. There are a number of modes, but most
folks
want to
"talk". That won't cut it for 85 watt moonbounce on 24 GHz.




73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA
ps - when I talk send and receive cw faster than some folks
type,
I'm
not
talking a nice, leisurely chat at 30 or 35 words per minute ...

Yup.

Good Morse ops can chat at speeds approaching those of voice ops
because
they use abbreviations and eliminate redundancies.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Dee:

Michael's own words:
"There certainly are women in Ham radio, and although a minority, ..."

What does that mean--they are being held out by the old farts? The
women too want no-code?

Just what is the reason he was claiming?

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
... oh, I love that argument!!! Let me see if I have it correctly,
either:

1) Women are too stupid for the technical fields.

How you managed to twist Mike's words to come up with this
interpretation is amazing. He neither said nor implied anything of
the sort.


2) We are no worse than any other technical field about baring women.


He said nothing about barring women from technical fields. Again how
you managed to come up with this inverted interpretation is one of the
mysteries of the world. Women choose not to go into technical fields
for their own reasons. That includes hobby activities like ham radio.

ROLL!!!!!

John


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...


wrote:


Phil Kane wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:21:00 -0700, John Smith wrote:


... all the women I have ever tried to interest in radio... all
have
declined doing anything towards getting a license... once they
even see
a key and a code practice oscillator they look at me as if I am
crazy
and ask, "You are kidding, right?"

Tell that to our friend Claire who is the NCS of the Beaver State
(CW) Traffic Net - high-speed CW. And she's no dummy - retired
PhD
in a specialized field of the biological sciences.


. . . then there was the legendary traffic handler Mae Burke W3CUL
who
was a neighborhood housewife . .


I can't imagine any person becoming a Ham because they simply want
to "chat with someone around the world".

In the first place most of my DX contacts are pretty terse, and
don't fulfill any "chatting needs". Not that I have chatting needs!

There certainly are women in Ham radio, and although a minority,
they are probably no more of a minority than women's representation
in other technical fields. This would mean that any problem is
shared with those other technical fields, and not a Ham radio
specific problem.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Kelly:

Now I really worry about you--you pose an argument which really starts to
define you as a fool!

Are you claiming I can't tune through all the ham bands in relatively
short order and be stuck numb with the fact that there are ALMOST NO WOMEN
to be heard?

Gesus man, you need some type of medication to even stay relevant!

John


Many of us do not call CQ but will answer them. Many others stay on CW
where you cannot tell if we are women unless we tell you or you look us up
and ASSUME based on our names that we are women.

I work several other women in every voice contest in which I participate and
they are NOT the same ones each time.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee:

That is another interesting statistic--most women in radio are the wives
of hams--there is certainly some interesting reasons behind that, I am
sure... I think it directly relates to "Good-Old Boy's Club" but them
accepting the wife, daughter, relative of a member of the club...

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Phil Kane" wrote in message
ganews.com...
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:21:00 -0700, John Smith wrote:

... all the women I have ever tried to interest in radio... all have
declined doing anything towards getting a license... once they even
see
a key and a code practice oscillator they look at me as if I am crazy
and ask, "You are kidding, right?"

Tell that to our friend Claire who is the NCS of the Beaver State
(CW) Traffic Net - high-speed CW. And she's no dummy - retired PhD
in a specialized field of the biological sciences.

So much for generalizations.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane



Definitely avoid generalizations. I originally got interested in ham
radio because my husband of the time asked me to be involved with him.
Code was part of the class and test. I didn't particularly have any
feelings against it or for it. However now I enjoy it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"robert casey" wrote in message
ink.net...


Perhaps what bothers some people the most about the code test
is that it isn't something most people already know. And it
isn't something that can be learned by reading a book, watching
a video, etc. It's a skill, not "book learning".

That makes it a real PITA to people who are good at book
learnin' and not so hot at motor skills.

Conversely the written is a real PITA to people who are good at physical
skills but not at book learning. We've got a few around here who breezed
through the 5, 13, and 20 wpm code test but had to take each of the writtens
multiple times and they had studied hard each time. They were not allowed
to get out of the written or plead diminished capacity or anything else.
They had to do it.


In learning the code, a Ph.D in EE has to start at the same place
as a grade-schooler. And the grade schooler may learn faster and
do better! Perhaps it is this characteristic of the test - its
ability to act as a Great Equalizer - that causes some to resent
it so much.


That makes ham radio that much harder to "sell" to the
PhDs and such people. Code is something that can be
outperformed by various signaling and signal processing
methods (JPL doesn't use Morse code to communicate with
their deep space probes).

Well those PHDs had to learn the simplest of basics in their chosen fields
when they started their journeys. There is "obsolete" information in every
field that is often required learning as part of a basic understanding of
the field.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee:

Now you are the official spokesmen for ALL these women, I'd rather hear
that directly from all the other girls here...

John-listens-to-the-echoes-from-this-silent-and-empty-room-and-Dee-speaking-for-ALL-the-other-females

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Kelly:

Now I really worry about you--you pose an argument which really
starts to define you as a fool!

Are you claiming I can't tune through all the ham bands in relatively
short order and be stuck numb with the fact that there are ALMOST NO
WOMEN to be heard?

Gesus man, you need some type of medication to even stay relevant!

John


Many of us do not call CQ but will answer them. Many others stay on
CW where you cannot tell if we are women unless we tell you or you
look us up and ASSUME based on our names that we are women.

I work several other women in every voice contest in which I
participate and they are NOT the same ones each time.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE