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an old friend July 22nd 05 09:24 PM



wrote:
From: Michael Coslo on Jul 22, 3:06 pm


K4YZ wrote:
Because all THEY are interested in is playing on HF...If all those
engineering types had any interest in obtaining an Amateur Radio
license for "experimenting" purposes, it would be a done deal.


Rather a sad sign of our times, Steve. We live in an era in which
"things" are so simple. NeoCons can attribute ALL problems to the
mythical "liberal", who despite being almost nonexistant today, is still
somehow responsible for all the ills of society.


Poor babies. Suffering the cynicsm and angst of the middle-aged
are you? :-)

In the same way, we have a lot of people who are willing to attest
every problem, real or imagined, to that dreaded Element 1 test. It is
responsible for the "declining number of Hams", etc etc, etc.


You two aren't cut out to be forest rangers...you two are unable
to see the forest for the trees... :-)

Had you bothered to look (outside of your respective insides),
you would have seen an INCREASE in amateur radio licenses in
the USA between the mid-2000 restructuring change and mid-2003.
A three-year period of growth in numbers.

Unfortunately, since then there has been a DECREASE in numbers
over the last two years. Steady - but small - decrease. That
is borne out by the delta between NEW licensees and EXPIRED
licenses. About 3,623 in one year's time from the 21 Jul 05
numbers on
www.hamdata.com.


They will get the chance to put their theory to the test. They will
also find out they are wrong.


Love those ABSOLUTE predictions! So...well..."predictable!" :-)

By the way, has no one else noticed that the drop off in numbers is
primarily Technicians who were not code tested?


Really? Who wrote that...besides an obvious PCTA, that is...?

Joe Speroni said that about 5 years ago. He tried to "prove"
it with some number juggling but only made headway with his
fellow PCTAs.

Kinda puts the lie to that theory right away doesn't it?


Kinda puts your statement into a POS without some proof...:-)

There was not that much effort, and those who were not all that
interested got their license. Ten years later, they allowed the license
to lapse.


Sunnuvagun! All those no-code-test Techs being "quitters?"

break

NOBODY else left the U.S. ARS? :-)


nobody even the SK's have manged to renew their licenses don't you know
Morse Code goes everywhere


Novice class has been dropping steadily for over five years.
They were NEVER "no-code-test" and once heralded as the
"entry point" into amateur radio, years ago. "Bunch of
quitters," right? :-)

Sweetums, go look at the present-day numbers. Technician
class now (as of 21 Jul 05) has 40.81% of all individual
licensees. That's over twice as many General class
licensees (only 20.33%). Together with Technician Plus,
they make up 48.46% of all individual licensees.

The no-code-test Technician class did not exist in 1990.
Since the inception of that class in 1991, those licensees
have ADDED about 200 THOUSAND hams to the U.S. numbers.
Without them the U.S. amateur radio "community" would have
DECREASED markedly over the last 14 years...like DROPPING
a whopping 27% compared to today's total individual licenses.

But, you don't want to see reality, do you? The fantasies
are much more appealing and "it's always someone else's
fault," isn't it?

bit bit



Dee Flint July 22nd 05 11:15 PM


"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Dee:

Just could explain why all these cars have taken on an "aerodynamic look"
to 'em... yes indeed, I think I can see your hand at work here.

If fact, now I look closer, some pretty feline lines grace those rigs!
grin

Just offhand, I'd bet aerospace was much more interesting...

John


Actually I have nothing to do with the exterior lines of automobiles. I
work for a supplier developing underhood components.

Well every job I've had has been interesting when you really dive into it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE



John Smith July 22nd 05 11:24 PM

Dee:

This is going to sound like a joke (and heaven knows I NEVER
JOKE!--but it isn't...), I once heard the little windshield wiper
pumps, the ones which spray on the window cleaner were the by-product
of nasa technology adopted by the auto industry; you wouldn't know
about that, would you?

Funny, but that question has stuck in my mind for years. I had made a
mental note to ask, if ever given the chance... sometimes doesn't take
much to entertain me... frown I actually doubt it... I mean, the
cleaner would freeze in the tank in space, immediately freeze and/or
crystallize to ice when discharged, etc...

or, perhaps they meant the pumps used by nasa were actually for
another purpose and just adapted to windshields here on terafirma...

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Dee:

Just could explain why all these cars have taken on an "aerodynamic
look" to 'em... yes indeed, I think I can see your hand at work
here.

If fact, now I look closer, some pretty feline lines grace those
rigs! grin

Just offhand, I'd bet aerospace was much more interesting...

John


Actually I have nothing to do with the exterior lines of
automobiles. I work for a supplier developing underhood components.

Well every job I've had has been interesting when you really dive
into it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




Dan/W4NTI July 22nd 05 11:42 PM


"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...



Dan,

All kidding aside, I heard he had a heart attack whilst on his tower way
back when and that is when he cashed in his chips.


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA




I'm fully aware of that Jim.

Dan/W4NTI



Dan/W4NTI July 22nd 05 11:48 PM

"John Smith"

This particular group of misfits with licenses do NOT represent ham radio.
Real hams can be found on 20 meters.

And that is where I am right now, BTW.

Dan/W4NTI
"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Dee:

I am quite serious. Look over all the posts here. I see where most here
are rather anti-social, they don't have much ability to get along well
with "other children."

Frankly, I would be hard pressed to present the group here as a good
reason to enter the hobby of amateur radio and to enjoy an exchange of
spoken and mental ideas with others... I include myself in that appraisal
also, as I have been direct and to the point also... to do less would seem
a waste of time, both theirs and mine...

Indeed, some may even be able to see why the Chicken Band is preferable
some of the time... still, I am hoping the right people can and will
change all that--that is what we are really talking about, and these guys
know it, and fear it!

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
nk.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-05-143A1.doc

Ugly. Really ugly. But who of us in the PCTA camp, realistically,
actually had themselves deluded into thinking the FCC would take any
other path?

This "NPRM" is not "an opportunity to comment", it's an announcement
about the way it's absolutely gonna be. Period. They'll go thru the
NPRM motions only because the law sez they have to and they'll
patiently tap their fingers on the table until the deluge of desparate
commnents is over then declare the POS they published today a done
deal.

I agree with Dee, the only visible impact this latest "restructing"
will be is another quickie bubble of upgrades and nothing more then
back then the bands as usual.

I could care less about any of it at this late date because none of it
has any effect at all on me. I've been allowed to beep, yak and PSK my
buns off everywhere band edge to band edge ever since I did 13 wpm fast
enough for the examiner to make me a General over a half century ago.
With an annoying side trip in 1968 to do 20 wpm to reconfirm my abilty
to beep good enough to retain my privs under that particular FCC
"restructuring" brainfart.

Game over, I'm opting out of any further participation in any of this
BS. Seeya in the pileups on 14.020. Ya dunno how to do 14.020? Good:
Less QRM for me. Eat yer heart out.


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv


Rest assured the FCC is going to do whatever is easiest for THEM.

There may be a upward surge of new "Ultra Lite Extra's" (Did I really
say that???).....and in a short time the bands will still sound
deserted.

There is a lot more at work here then just dropping CW.

Check out the bands lately? Where are all those new "light" hams
anyway? Danged if I can find them.

All you that gloat over losing one of the glues that hold/held ham radio
together will rue this day. And no I'm not a stuck in the mud, cw only
operator, I just see the hand writing on the wall.

Lennie is happy now. He can sneak over to a test session and get his
General......

Dan/W4NTI


Dollars to donuts that he comes up with another excuse not to.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE






Bert Craig July 22nd 05 11:51 PM

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
nk.net...
"John Smith"

This particular group of misfits with licenses do NOT represent ham radio.
Real hams can be found on 20 meters.

And that is where I am right now, BTW.



Listening on 14020. :-)

--
Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI
FISTS #9384/CC #1736
QRP ARCI #11782



an_old_friend July 22nd 05 11:58 PM



Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"John Smith"


break
This particular group of misfits with licenses do NOT represent ham radio.
Real hams can be found on 20 meters.

And that is where I am right now, BTW.


your statement is proof of why ending codetesting the right way to go


Dan/W4NTI
"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Dee:

I am quite serious. Look over all the posts here. I see where most here
are rather anti-social, they don't have much ability to get along well
with "other children."

Frankly, I would be hard pressed to present the group here as a good
reason to enter the hobby of amateur radio and to enjoy an exchange of
spoken and mental ideas with others... I include myself in that appraisal
also, as I have been direct and to the point also... to do less would seem
a waste of time, both theirs and mine...

Indeed, some may even be able to see why the Chicken Band is preferable
some of the time... still, I am hoping the right people can and will
change all that--that is what we are really talking about, and these guys
know it, and fear it!

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
nk.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-05-143A1.doc

Ugly. Really ugly. But who of us in the PCTA camp, realistically,
actually had themselves deluded into thinking the FCC would take any
other path?

This "NPRM" is not "an opportunity to comment", it's an announcement
about the way it's absolutely gonna be. Period. They'll go thru the
NPRM motions only because the law sez they have to and they'll
patiently tap their fingers on the table until the deluge of desparate
commnents is over then declare the POS they published today a done
deal.

I agree with Dee, the only visible impact this latest "restructing"
will be is another quickie bubble of upgrades and nothing more then
back then the bands as usual.

I could care less about any of it at this late date because none of it
has any effect at all on me. I've been allowed to beep, yak and PSK my
buns off everywhere band edge to band edge ever since I did 13 wpm fast
enough for the examiner to make me a General over a half century ago.
With an annoying side trip in 1968 to do 20 wpm to reconfirm my abilty
to beep good enough to retain my privs under that particular FCC
"restructuring" brainfart.

Game over, I'm opting out of any further participation in any of this
BS. Seeya in the pileups on 14.020. Ya dunno how to do 14.020? Good:
Less QRM for me. Eat yer heart out.


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv


Rest assured the FCC is going to do whatever is easiest for THEM.

There may be a upward surge of new "Ultra Lite Extra's" (Did I really
say that???).....and in a short time the bands will still sound
deserted.

There is a lot more at work here then just dropping CW.

Check out the bands lately? Where are all those new "light" hams
anyway? Danged if I can find them.

All you that gloat over losing one of the glues that hold/held ham radio
together will rue this day. And no I'm not a stuck in the mud, cw only
operator, I just see the hand writing on the wall.

Lennie is happy now. He can sneak over to a test session and get his
General......

Dan/W4NTI

Dollars to donuts that he comes up with another excuse not to.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE





Mike Coslo July 23rd 05 12:01 AM

wrote:
From: Michael Coslo on Fri 22 Jul 2005 13:37


K4YZ wrote:

Jayson Davis wrote:


As soon as cw falls, I see the most important step being in
"advertising" the fact that cw is no longer a requirement. Spreading
the word and helping others to study and pass the written exam will be
key in getting the numbers we need at that time.

I don't even see that as being a "happening thing", Jayson.
Amateur Radio, just like fishing, or NASCAR, or R/C models, etc etc has
always attracted a certain "crowd".


And a strange line of thought Jayson uses. Kind of like we're supposed
to say:

"Ham Radio - we don't suck now!"



That would be a REALISTIC beginning... :-)

Oh, Michael, we've all seen the "crowd" represented by K4YZ. :-)



Steve represents mostly himself. I've seen a lot of people who
represent a lot of things.

So, other than the ARS (Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society)
thinking their sky has fallen, what would YOU really
advertise U.S. amateur radio in its "new beginning" after
WT Docket 05-235 turns into an R&O?


It's not an issue of numbers, it's an issue of why would anyone want to
become an amateur radio operator. Really now, why would you want to do
that? To talk on repeaters? To work some guy on 20 meters? The whole
hobby is passe.


To Jayson:

Then why the heck do you want us to advertise that the Morse test is gone.



Not the YOU "us," Michael. The ARRL badly needs new membership.
They've never had as many as a quarter of all U.S. amateur
radio licensees as members and are currently down around just
20% of licensees.


ARR?

ARRL is more business than organization and
the business side of the house has to show a profit.


I wonder why so many people who hate Ham radio seem to know exactly how
Ham radio is supposed to be?



Why are you sounding insecure? The FCC defines U.S. amateur
radio. You don't define U.S. amateur radio.


Insecure? So are the others who *know* how it is to be defined also
insecure?

You are sounding EXACTLY like the "superior OTs" you decry in
another message...like everyone MUST accept what YOU accept
as a definition. Tsk.


Tsk indeed. My question is a simple one. Its a rough equivalent of the
US basing our economic policy on what a group of olde tyme Russian
communists think it should be. They didn't like us much at all. I bet
they had some "good ideas" on how we should run things though...


So's dropping a line in the water and trying to hook a fish, but
millions of folks do it every year...Not because it's the only way to
feed their families, but just for fun.

Anyone can get into chat rooms or exchange e-mail with folks
almost anywhere in the world...but there will still be the thrill of
doing it with "wireless".



"Thrill?!?" Has Stebie gotten an Orion and having oriongasms?

"Wireless" today refers to LANs coupled by radio, not wires.
See the acronym WLAN and what the "W" stands for.

Almost exactly 50 years ago I picked up a handset in Tokyo
and spoke to my counterpart in San Francisco, all a part of
the Army network. First time I'd "done DX" on HF. WAs
there supposed to be a "thrill" associated with using that
24/7 communications circuit? :-) Perhaps novel is the word,
but I already knew the circuit was there 24/7 as were all the
other radio circuits.

I've used radio to communicate from land, sea, and air. Not
a magic thing. If there be "magic" then it was listening to
Edward R. Murrow reporting live from London in 1940 in the
midst of the London Bombing. "Magic" is a subjective thing.

Radio waves and electrons do NOT, nor ever did operate
according to human emotional dictates. Try to remember that.


If you want to attract the bright intelligent minds, you better be
prepared to challenge them. Challenge them to let them in, challenge
them when they get here. Do you think ax.25 is going to attract people?


To Jayson again: (Sorry Steve, I didn't see the post until now)

Question number 1 - Why do so many people seem to think that the
internet is some kind of Hi-Tech wonderland - and that Amateur Radio
darn well better emulate it?



Alternate Question number 1: Why are you getting defensive?


Side note..... If you think that the Internet is at the cutting
edge.... well, we know that you aren't.

And yes, mentioning AX. 25 is telling me that. Packet radio is FAIAP
not at all about transmission of large amounts of data. It has morphed
into APRS, GPS apps, C and C and other areas which do indeed attract
bright people who want to experiment.



Aren't you conflicting with yourself on that?

"Bright people wanting to experiment" aren't going to fall in love
with a radio service demanding all below-30-MHz-privileged
individuals demonstrate telegraphy skills...especially when
that skill goes back 161 years! :-)


Lots of bright students don't want to learn anything that they don't
think is relevant.

BTW, isn't there a slight contradiction between wanting to attract
large number of people, and wanting to attract the bright and intelligent?



How does a requirement of knowing 161-year-old morsemanship
skill attract the "bright and intelligent?" :-)


non sequitur. I wasn't writing of Morse code.

What the six-tiered-class system of old U.S. amateur radio
licensing did was attract some people who NEEDED to climb
ladders of accomplishment through the classes to get to the
top...and then proclaim their "superiority in radio!" :-)



Yet all they whine about is the code test and that 3% of the
allocations that do require a code test.

Why?


Those type hate Hams. Maybe that isn't gospel truth, but its close enough.



Poor babies...feeling "hated" are you both?


Everyone is hated by someone. If a person allows themselves to be
bothered by it, they are a poor baby indeed.

Feeling "hated" because so few agree with your self-proclaimed
"definitions" of What It Is All About?


If 50 million people believe a foolish thing is true, it remains a
foolish thing.

Yes, it's all a big conspiracy. All those who disagree with you
two HATE YOU! Not only that, THEY HATE HAM RADIO...because you
two define yourself as "ham radio!" [you two have the conspiracy
thing all in a row, lined up...in your minds]


Easy there, don't get the B.P. up!


Because all THEY are interested in is playing on HF...If all those
engineering types had any interest in obtaining an Amateur Radio
license for "experimenting" purposes, it would be a done deal.


Yup.



Tsk. How little you two know of REAL engineering and
"experimentation." :-)


So what you are saying is that those who do know about REAL engineering
and "experimentation" won't do it unless only everything is to their
exact liking? Otherwise they will simply wait until everything is to
their exact liking?

You two sound like an anvil chorus playing a Newington stage.
SRO you ain't.

Have fun in the ARS (Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society). [why
are you here instead of playing with your HF radios?]


I am here *while* I'm playing with my HF radio.

- Mike KB3EIA -

John Smith July 23rd 05 12:32 AM

Wait right there, on 20 meters. As soon as CW hits the bucket, I think
I will be able to supply you with students from my night class,
soon...

John

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
nk.net...
"John Smith"

This particular group of misfits with licenses do NOT represent ham
radio. Real hams can be found on 20 meters.

And that is where I am right now, BTW.

Dan/W4NTI
"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Dee:

I am quite serious. Look over all the posts here. I see where
most here are rather anti-social, they don't have much ability to
get along well with "other children."

Frankly, I would be hard pressed to present the group here as a
good reason to enter the hobby of amateur radio and to enjoy an
exchange of spoken and mental ideas with others... I include
myself in that appraisal also, as I have been direct and to the
point also... to do less would seem a waste of time, both theirs
and mine...

Indeed, some may even be able to see why the Chicken Band is
preferable some of the time... still, I am hoping the right people
can and will change all that--that is what we are really talking
about, and these guys know it, and fear it!

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
nk.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-05-143A1.doc

Ugly. Really ugly. But who of us in the PCTA camp,
realistically,
actually had themselves deluded into thinking the FCC would take
any
other path?

This "NPRM" is not "an opportunity to comment", it's an
announcement
about the way it's absolutely gonna be. Period. They'll go thru
the
NPRM motions only because the law sez they have to and they'll
patiently tap their fingers on the table until the deluge of
desparate
commnents is over then declare the POS they published today a
done
deal.

I agree with Dee, the only visible impact this latest
"restructing"
will be is another quickie bubble of upgrades and nothing more
then
back then the bands as usual.

I could care less about any of it at this late date because none
of it
has any effect at all on me. I've been allowed to beep, yak and
PSK my
buns off everywhere band edge to band edge ever since I did 13
wpm fast
enough for the examiner to make me a General over a half century
ago.
With an annoying side trip in 1968 to do 20 wpm to reconfirm my
abilty
to beep good enough to retain my privs under that particular FCC
"restructuring" brainfart.

Game over, I'm opting out of any further participation in any of
this
BS. Seeya in the pileups on 14.020. Ya dunno how to do 14.020?
Good:
Less QRM for me. Eat yer heart out.


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv


Rest assured the FCC is going to do whatever is easiest for THEM.

There may be a upward surge of new "Ultra Lite Extra's" (Did I
really say that???).....and in a short time the bands will still
sound deserted.

There is a lot more at work here then just dropping CW.

Check out the bands lately? Where are all those new "light"
hams anyway? Danged if I can find them.

All you that gloat over losing one of the glues that hold/held
ham radio together will rue this day. And no I'm not a stuck in
the mud, cw only operator, I just see the hand writing on the
wall.

Lennie is happy now. He can sneak over to a test session and get
his General......

Dan/W4NTI

Dollars to donuts that he comes up with another excuse not to.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE








John Smith July 23rd 05 01:06 AM

Dee:

Let us both look at this, we both know I have treated you as "one of
the guys" here, I have pulled no punches because you are female; you
have not only taken it in stride, you have taken it well.

Don't feel I do not value your comments, even if my abrasive nature
might lead you to that conclusion.

Because you are female, you are one of the most valuable voices
here--it is just that way, nothing anyone can do about, nor should
really (well, encourage more females so there is something resembling
a "balance" here.)

Hang tough girl, ya got what it takes... warm smile

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Dee:

Just could explain why all these cars have taken on an "aerodynamic
look" to 'em... yes indeed, I think I can see your hand at work
here.

If fact, now I look closer, some pretty feline lines grace those
rigs! grin

Just offhand, I'd bet aerospace was much more interesting...

John


Actually I have nothing to do with the exterior lines of
automobiles. I work for a supplier developing underhood components.

Well every job I've had has been interesting when you really dive
into it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE





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