wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

K4YZ wrote:

wrote:

From: Mike Coslo on Jul 22, 4:01 pm

wrote:

From: Michael Coslo on Fri 22 Jul 2005 13:37


Why are you sounding insecure? The FCC defines U.S. amateur
radio. You don't define U.S. amateur radio.


Insecure? So are the others who *know* how it is to be defined also
insecure?


Tsk. Don't try that ploy. THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO
IN THE UNITED STATES. Period.


You folks all missed an important point.

We are told in no uncertain terms that

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

NO point missed, Jim! Just didn't pay any attention to it.

But the same nonamateur also tells us that amateur radio

"is a HOBBY".
Yet the word "HOBBY" or "hobby" does not appear anywhere in Part 97.
The FCC
doesn't use that word at all in connection with the definition of
the Amateur Radio Service.

So the FCC, who define amateur radio in the United States, don't use
the
word "hobby" in their definition. Yet we are told that amateur radio
*is* a
hobby.

Hey, Jim. some people in here offer a lot of qoutes not supported by
facts. I think they are interpreted qoutes. You know, when they say we
say something and it really isn't what we said, but what they wanted us
to say so they could qoute us on it so we could be wrong...... hehe

Do you see the contradiction?

Always have

Looks like someone doesn't know what he's talking about.....


They grant the licenses for same.


Your "answer" doesn't answer the question, Lennie.

Seldom does. I didn't reply before, because I couldn't figure out just
*how* to reply.


Len rarely, if ever, answers direct questions. He says they're
"loaded".

In a sense they are loaded questions. When the question is answered,
and it interferes with a preconcieved notion, it is loaded.


"Bright people wanting to experiment" aren't going to fall in love
with a radio service demanding all below-30-MHz-privileged
individuals demonstrate telegraphy skills...especially when
that skill goes back 161 years! :-)


Lots of bright students don't want to learn anything that they don't
think is relevant.


Har! That's one of the WEAKEST arguments mumbled by so many.


No, it's not.


It's still as "real" today as it was when I was in grade school,
and probably when your grandfather was in grade school, Lennie.


I don't think I've ever met any student in any learning enviroment
that didn't want to "cut through the BS" and jsut "learn what I need to
know..."


There are plenty enough of that type running around.

It is one of the defining elements of the truly ignorant. The remark
must be answered with:


Tell me everything you are ever going to do in your career, and we'll
get started on what you need to know.


I'll have to remember that one!

Ignorance is the basis of being absolutely sure about something.


The FCC is NOT an academic institution and licensees are NOT
"students"...NOT even prospective licensees going for a test.


Everyone is hated by someone. If a person allows themselves to be
bothered by it, they are a poor baby indeed.


No, sweetums, YOU got the non-sequitur. Note what I said about
K4YZ: Anyone simply disagreeing with him is ACCUSED to be
HATING HAM RADIO! Search all you want through Google and you
will find him using that "phrase of hate." Do YOU want to be
like him?


No hate, Lennie.


I just don't tolerate liars.


And I don't always agree with you. Which kinda blows his theory out of
the water.


I don't agree with any of you on some things too. Another theory
destroyed.


If 50 million people believe a foolish thing is true, it remains a
foolish thing.

"50 million people in WHAT?" Where are you dreaming today?


Hello? Concentrate on the thread subject.


Okay, I'll slow down and explain.


See, like someone goes like: "Feeling "hated" because so few agree with
your self-proclaimed "definitions" of What It Is All About?".


Bummer!

I hear ya man!


Then like I go like: "If 50 million people believe a foolish thing is
true, it remains a foolish thing.


To the max, man...


It's like if so few agree with my definitions, its like tons and tons
of people don't agree with my definitions, you know - totally.


It's where their heads are at. Different scene.

I jus tell'em "whoa, step down dude"!


So I was going like: those tons and tons of people, like maybe 50
million of them, don't agree you know?, and like maybe I think they are
like wrong, and like maybe if I am not wrong, like maybe they are still
wrong, and like just cuz theres like tons and tons of them, that won't
like make it right, you know?


Groovy! That totally rocks, Mike. Tubular, dude.


Rightoeus! But then they just go like "What"?

Whew....


To put it another way: "Objective reality doesn't care what you
believe"

Like in one sentence even! 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

K4YZ wrote:

wrote:
cut

Hey, Jim. some people in here offer a lot of qoutes not supported by
facts. I think they are interpreted qoutes. You know, when they say we
say something and it really isn't what we said, but what they wanted us
to say so they could qoute us on it so we could be wrong...... hehe

there is a lot of that

Do you see the contradiction?

Always have
cut

To put it another way: "Objective reality doesn't care what you
believe"

Like in one sentence even! 8^)

and govt regs and objective reality are rarely compatable

just look at where the FCC put the Local only CB service


- Mike KB3EIA -

On 25 Jul 2005 08:59:17 -0700, wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
wrote:
From: Mike Coslo on Jul 22, 4:01 pm
wrote:
From: Michael Coslo on Fri 22 Jul 2005 13:37

Why are you sounding insecure? The FCC defines U.S. amateur
radio. You don't define U.S. amateur radio.

Insecure? So are the others who *know* how it is to be defined also
insecure?

Tsk. Don't try that ploy. THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO
IN THE UNITED STATES. Period.

You folks all missed an important point.

We are told in no uncertain terms that

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

That is true. The definition and regulatory package ensures that
folks who participate in the hobby do not interfere with other users
of the spectrum (or each other), or utilize it for purposes that it is
not intended to be used for (such as for business purposes).


But the same nonamateur also tells us that amateur radio

"is a HOBBY".

Yet the word "HOBBY" or "hobby" does not appear anywhere in Part 97.
The FCC
doesn't use that word at all in connection with the definition of
the Amateur Radio Service.

So the FCC, who define amateur radio in the United States, don't use
the
word "hobby" in their definition. Yet we are told that amateur radio
*is* a
hobby.

Do you see the contradiction?

Looks like someone doesn't know what he's talking about.....

Must be a common mistake - looks like the ARRL missed that one
too....quote:

"Here's your invitation to a friendly, high-tech hobby that's got
something fun for everyone! You can become an Amateur Radio
operator....."

http://www.arrl.org/hamradio.html

Hmmm - you'd think they'd know what it is - wouldn't you?

snip

To put it another way: "Objective reality doesn't care what you
believe"

That's for sure!


73 de Jim, N2EY

73, Leo

Leo wrote:
On 25 Jul 2005 08:59:17 -0700, wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
wrote:
From: Mike Coslo on Jul 22, 4:01 pm
wrote:
From: Michael Coslo on Fri 22 Jul 2005 13:37
Why are you sounding insecure? The FCC defines U.S. amateur
radio. You don't define U.S. amateur radio.
Insecure? So are the others who *know* how it is to be defined also
insecure?

Tsk. Don't try that ploy. THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO
IN THE UNITED STATES. Period.

You folks all missed an important point.

We are told in no uncertain terms that

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

That is true.

It's true that we've been told

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

But that statement (taken as a whole) may not be true.

The definition and regulatory package ensures that
folks who participate in the hobby do not interfere with other users
of the spectrum (or each other), or utilize it for purposes that it is
not intended to be used for (such as for business purposes).

OK

But the same nonamateur also tells us that amateur radio

"is a HOBBY".

Yet the word "HOBBY" or "hobby" does not appear anywhere in Part 97.
The FCC
doesn't use that word at all in connection with the definition of
the Amateur Radio Service.

So the FCC, who define amateur radio in the United States, don't use
the
word "hobby" in their definition. Yet we are told that amateur radio
*is* a hobby.

Do you see the contradiction?

Looks like someone doesn't know what he's talking about.....

Must be a common mistake - looks like the ARRL missed that one
too....quote:

"Here's your invitation to a friendly, high-tech hobby that's got
something fun for everyone! You can become an Amateur Radio
operator....."

http://www.arrl.org/hamradio.html

Hmmm - you'd think they'd know what it is - wouldn't you?

Sure - which means that one of the statements must not be true.

Note that ARRL does not state:

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

The contradiction comes from the idea that the FCC and *only*
the FCC defines amateur radio in the USA - which is what the
"Period" means.

snip

To put it another way: "Objective reality doesn't care what you
believe"

That's for sure!

Yep.

Which is to say that, for some, Amateur Radio is a hobby. For others,
it's much more. For the FCC, it's a licensed radio service that is
regulated by Part 97.

In fact, Amateur Radio is all of those things and much more.


73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-05-143A1.doc


73 de Jim, N2EY

Sad? Did you lose the prediction?

wrote:
Leo wrote:

On 25 Jul 2005 08:59:17 -0700, wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

K4YZ wrote:

wrote:

From: Mike Coslo on Jul 22, 4:01 pm

wrote:

From: Michael Coslo on Fri 22 Jul 2005 13:37
Why are you sounding insecure? The FCC defines U.S. amateur
radio. You don't define U.S. amateur radio.

Insecure? So are the others who *know* how it is to be defined also
insecure?

Tsk. Don't try that ploy. THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO
IN THE UNITED STATES. Period.

You folks all missed an important point.

We are told in no uncertain terms that

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

That is true.


It's true that we've been told

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

But that statement (taken as a whole) may not be true.

It is an ambiguous statement though. It is true enough. But does it
mean that the FCC defines Amateur radio without input from amateurs or
anyone else?

No. The FCC defines it, and in taking opinion from Hams and others,
they will obviously disappoint some people.

I have no problem with the statement. The presentation of the statement
was intended to inflame though....period...

And it worked.

The definition and regulatory package ensures that
folks who participate in the hobby do not interfere with other users
of the spectrum (or each other), or utilize it for purposes that it is
not intended to be used for (such as for business purposes).


OK


But the same nonamateur also tells us that amateur radio

"is a HOBBY".

Yet the word "HOBBY" or "hobby" does not appear anywhere in Part 97.
The FCC
doesn't use that word at all in connection with the definition of
the Amateur Radio Service.

So the FCC, who define amateur radio in the United States, don't use
the
word "hobby" in their definition. Yet we are told that amateur radio
*is* a hobby.

Do you see the contradiction?

Looks like someone doesn't know what he's talking about.....

Must be a common mistake - looks like the ARRL missed that one
too....quote:

"Here's your invitation to a friendly, high-tech hobby that's got
something fun for everyone! You can become an Amateur Radio
operator....."

http://www.arrl.org/hamradio.html

Hmmm - you'd think they'd know what it is - wouldn't you?

Sure - which means that one of the statements must not be true.

So it's a hobby. So what? It *is* a service too. Lets face it - if a
person makes the argument that it is a hobby because the ARRL says so on
a web page, they must concede that it is also a service, unless they are
going to declare the *actual* name of the FCC calls the ARS to be less
accurate than what ARRL types on a web page. To do otherwise is to
invite looking foolish. Period

In short, perhaps the FCC declares the Amateur Radio Service to be a
service..... Period???

Or maybe they were just like saying?


Note that ARRL does not state:

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

Why should they. Hardly polite talk! Period

The contradiction comes from the idea that the FCC and *only*
the FCC defines amateur radio in the USA - which is what the
"Period" means.

Period

snip

To put it another way: "Objective reality doesn't care what you
believe"

That's for sure!


Yep.

Period

Which is to say that, for some, Amateur Radio is a hobby. For others,
it's much more. For the FCC, it's a licensed radio service that is
regulated by Part 97.

The FCC says so. Period

In fact, Amateur Radio is all of those things and much more.

Period....


73 de Jim, N2EY

Point of grammar, Jim. Is there a period after period? Does the period
suffice, or is it redundantly periodic?


- Mike KB3EIA -

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:25:58 -0400, Mike Coslo
wrote:

wrote:
Leo wrote:

On 25 Jul 2005 08:59:17 -0700, wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

K4YZ wrote:

wrote:

From: Mike Coslo on Jul 22, 4:01 pm

wrote:

From: Michael Coslo on Fri 22 Jul 2005 13:37
Why are you sounding insecure? The FCC defines U.S. amateur
radio. You don't define U.S. amateur radio.

Insecure? So are the others who *know* how it is to be defined also
insecure?

Tsk. Don't try that ploy. THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO
IN THE UNITED STATES. Period.

You folks all missed an important point.

We are told in no uncertain terms that

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

That is true.


It's true that we've been told

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

But that statement (taken as a whole) may not be true.

It is an ambiguous statement though. It is true enough. But does it
mean that the FCC defines Amateur radio without input from amateurs or
anyone else?

Based on the recent NPRM, it sure does appear that they do!


No. The FCC defines it, and in taking opinion from Hams and others,
they will obviously disappoint some people.

I have no problem with the statement. The presentation of the statement
was intended to inflame though....period...

And it worked.

It always does!


The definition and regulatory package ensures that
folks who participate in the hobby do not interfere with other users
of the spectrum (or each other), or utilize it for purposes that it is
not intended to be used for (such as for business purposes).


OK


But the same nonamateur also tells us that amateur radio

"is a HOBBY".

Yet the word "HOBBY" or "hobby" does not appear anywhere in Part 97.
The FCC
doesn't use that word at all in connection with the definition of
the Amateur Radio Service.

So the FCC, who define amateur radio in the United States, don't use
the
word "hobby" in their definition. Yet we are told that amateur radio
*is* a hobby.

Do you see the contradiction?

Looks like someone doesn't know what he's talking about.....

Must be a common mistake - looks like the ARRL missed that one
too....quote:

"Here's your invitation to a friendly, high-tech hobby that's got
something fun for everyone! You can become an Amateur Radio
operator....."

http://www.arrl.org/hamradio.html

Hmmm - you'd think they'd know what it is - wouldn't you?

Sure - which means that one of the statements must not be true.

So it's a hobby. So what? It *is* a service too. Lets face it - if a
person makes the argument that it is a hobby because the ARRL says so on
a web page, they must concede that it is also a service, unless they are
going to declare the *actual* name of the FCC calls the ARS to be less
accurate than what ARRL types on a web page. To do otherwise is to
invite looking foolish. Period

In short, perhaps the FCC declares the Amateur Radio Service to be a
service..... Period???

A service, yes - in the sense that it is a service provided *to* the
users, not a service provided *by* the users.....CB and GMRS are also
defined as services.


Or maybe they were just like saying?


Note that ARRL does not state:

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

In the sense that, as the regulatory agency whose mandate it is to
define into law the definition and scope of the hobby - they do!

Period.


Why should they. Hardly polite talk! Period

The contradiction comes from the idea that the FCC and *only*
the FCC defines amateur radio in the USA - which is what the
"Period" means.

Period

snip

To put it another way: "Objective reality doesn't care what you
believe"

That's for sure!


Yep.

Period

Which is to say that, for some, Amateur Radio is a hobby. For others,
it's much more. For the FCC, it's a licensed radio service that is
regulated by Part 97.

The FCC says so. Period

In fact, Amateur Radio is all of those things and much more.

Period....


73 de Jim, N2EY

Point of grammar, Jim. Is there a period after period? Does the period
suffice, or is it redundantly periodic?

There is no period following the third period



- Mike KB3EIA -

73, Leo

an_old_friend wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:


K4YZ wrote:


wrote:

cut


Hey, Jim. some people in here offer a lot of qoutes not supported by
facts. I think they are interpreted qoutes. You know, when they say we
say something and it really isn't what we said, but what they wanted us
to say so they could qoute us on it so we could be wrong...... hehe


there is a lot of that

Which sometimes makes it hard to have a good discussion..

Do you see the contradiction?

Always have

cut


To put it another way: "Objective reality doesn't care what you
believe"

Like in one sentence even! 8^)


and govt regs and objective reality are rarely compatable

just look at where the FCC put the Local only CB service

You mean the frequency they use?

- Mike KB3EIA -

Leo wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:25:58 -0400, Mike Coslo
wrote:


wrote:

Leo wrote:


On 25 Jul 2005 08:59:17 -0700, wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote:


K4YZ wrote:


wrote:


From: Mike Coslo on Jul 22, 4:01 pm


wrote:


From: Michael Coslo on Fri 22 Jul 2005 13:37
Why are you sounding insecure? The FCC defines U.S. amateur
radio. You don't define U.S. amateur radio.

Insecure? So are the others who *know* how it is to be defined also
insecure?

Tsk. Don't try that ploy. THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO
IN THE UNITED STATES. Period.

You folks all missed an important point.

We are told in no uncertain terms that

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

That is true.


It's true that we've been told

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

But that statement (taken as a whole) may not be true.

It is an ambiguous statement though. It is true enough. But does it
mean that the FCC defines Amateur radio without input from amateurs or
anyone else?


Based on the recent NPRM, it sure does appear that they do!

One of the things that happens in any organization from time to time,
is that despite apparent majority opinion, a decision is made that is
not majority opinion. Sometimes it is because of the organizations
rules, or what the organization is tasked to do.

The ARS isn't a democracy.

Which brings up an interesting paradox. In a pure democracy, the votors
can vote to eliminate the democracy, and install a dictatorship, whic
can then ignore them and set up a democracy that they can vote to
dissolve, and on and on....... hehe


No. The FCC defines it, and in taking opinion from Hams and others,
they will obviously disappoint some people.

I have no problem with the statement. The presentation of the statement
was intended to inflame though....period...

And it worked.


It always does!


The definition and regulatory package ensures that
folks who participate in the hobby do not interfere with other users
of the spectrum (or each other), or utilize it for purposes that it is
not intended to be used for (such as for business purposes).


OK



But the same nonamateur also tells us that amateur radio

"is a HOBBY".

Yet the word "HOBBY" or "hobby" does not appear anywhere in Part 97.
The FCC
doesn't use that word at all in connection with the definition of
the Amateur Radio Service.

So the FCC, who define amateur radio in the United States, don't use
the
word "hobby" in their definition. Yet we are told that amateur radio
*is* a hobby.

Do you see the contradiction?

Looks like someone doesn't know what he's talking about.....

Must be a common mistake - looks like the ARRL missed that one
too....quote:

"Here's your invitation to a friendly, high-tech hobby that's got
something fun for everyone! You can become an Amateur Radio
operator....."

http://www.arrl.org/hamradio.html

Hmmm - you'd think they'd know what it is - wouldn't you?


Sure - which means that one of the statements must not be true.

So it's a hobby. So what? It *is* a service too. Lets face it - if a
person makes the argument that it is a hobby because the ARRL says so on
a web page, they must concede that it is also a service, unless they are
going to declare the *actual* name of the FCC calls the ARS to be less
accurate than what ARRL types on a web page. To do otherwise is to
invite looking foolish. Period

In short, perhaps the FCC declares the Amateur Radio Service to be a
service..... Period???


A service, yes - in the sense that it is a service provided *to* the
users, not a service provided *by* the users.....CB and GMRS are also
defined as services.


Or maybe they were just like saying?



Note that ARRL does not state:

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."


In the sense that, as the regulatory agency whose mandate it is to
define into law the definition and scope of the hobby - they do!

Period.


Why should they. Hardly polite talk! Period


The contradiction comes from the idea that the FCC and *only*
the FCC defines amateur radio in the USA - which is what the
"Period" means.

Period


snip

To put it another way: "Objective reality doesn't care what you
believe"

That's for sure!


Yep.

Period


Which is to say that, for some, Amateur Radio is a hobby. For others,
it's much more. For the FCC, it's a licensed radio service that is
regulated by Part 97.

The FCC says so. Period


In fact, Amateur Radio is all of those things and much more.

Period....


73 de Jim, N2EY

Point of grammar, Jim. Is there a period after period? Does the period
suffice, or is it redundantly periodic?


There is no period following the third period


hehe.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Let me see, doesn't our constitution indicate that gov't
ONLY has the powers given it by the consent of the
governed (the citizens of the United States)...

True, but read below.

I mean really, I think it does, and the FCC
can't claim any damn thing they like,

The FCC doesn't claim any damn thing they like.
The FCC has authority on regulation of radio.

apparently even claims bordering on the line of
being unconstitutional!

John,

The FCC has been given authority over all things that involve
radio via past congressional action. That congressional action
constituted the representative process whereby we citizens
OK'd FCC authority.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

wrote in message
oups.com...
Leo wrote:
On 25 Jul 2005 08:59:17 -0700, wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
wrote:
From: Mike Coslo on Jul 22, 4:01 pm
wrote:
From: Michael Coslo on Fri 22 Jul 2005 13:37
Why are you sounding insecure? The FCC defines U.S. amateur
radio. You don't define U.S. amateur radio.
Insecure? So are the others who *know* how it is to be defined
also
insecure?

Tsk. Don't try that ploy. THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO
IN THE UNITED STATES. Period.

You folks all missed an important point.

We are told in no uncertain terms that

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

That is true.

It's true that we've been told

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

But that statement (taken as a whole) may not be true.

The definition and regulatory package ensures that
folks who participate in the hobby do not interfere with other users
of the spectrum (or each other), or utilize it for purposes that it is
not intended to be used for (such as for business purposes).

OK

But the same nonamateur also tells us that amateur radio

"is a HOBBY".

Yet the word "HOBBY" or "hobby" does not appear anywhere in Part 97.
The FCC
doesn't use that word at all in connection with the definition of
the Amateur Radio Service.

So the FCC, who define amateur radio in the United States, don't use
the
word "hobby" in their definition. Yet we are told that amateur radio
*is* a hobby.

Do you see the contradiction?

Looks like someone doesn't know what he's talking about.....

Must be a common mistake - looks like the ARRL missed that one
too....quote:

"Here's your invitation to a friendly, high-tech hobby that's got
something fun for everyone! You can become an Amateur Radio
operator....."

http://www.arrl.org/hamradio.html

Hmmm - you'd think they'd know what it is - wouldn't you?

Sure - which means that one of the statements must not be true.

Note that ARRL does not state:

"THE FCC DEFINES AMATEUR RADIO IN THE UNITED STATES. Period."

The contradiction comes from the idea that the FCC and *only*
the FCC defines amateur radio in the USA - which is what the
"Period" means.

snip

To put it another way: "Objective reality doesn't care what you
believe"

That's for sure!

Yep.

Which is to say that, for some, Amateur Radio is a hobby. For others,
it's much more. For the FCC, it's a licensed radio service that is
regulated by Part 97.

In fact, Amateur Radio is all of those things and much more.


73 de Jim, N2EY