From: "K4YZ" on Thurs 8 Sep 2005 23:39


Mac wrote:
Great work and excellent publicity...cya Mac

"Charlie" wrote in message
...
1. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9228945/

--

Charlie - AD5TH
www.ad5th.com

I've noted that the usual rhetoric from the "Ham Radio Will Never
Get Through When Anything Fails" crowd, specifically from the patriarch
of the Feeble Five, Lennie "No Guts" Anderson, has waned in the face of
MAJOR media stories in all facets of "the press" that have lauded
Amateur Radio.

"Patriarch?!?" :-) Not I, never having met in-person any of
those against the mighty warrior of "seven hostile actions,"
Dudly the Unconquerable...aka Dudly the Unhumbleable. :-)

"Waned?!?" :-) Life goes on 2000 miles away from the Katrina
hurricane devastation.

Ahem...the "MAJOR media" are reporting as much as possible about
the Gulf Coast damage. That is of considerable quantity.

Reporters, journalists, telecasters are all on-the-scene covering
an enormous area of extensive damage with many, many "human
interest" stories appearing. Anybody with a working TV set can
see/hear that; anybody with a working BC receiver can hear that.
Anyone able to read a major newspaper can read that. Anyone with
a working PC and an Internet connection can find that out.

What Dudly is doing in here is just ordinary FLAMING because he
is obsessed with FIGHTING. [wannabe-warriors get that way...]
Yes, stories have been filed with newsservices on amateur radio
doing their part in aiding the relief effort, but are those
relief actions of amateurs of any notable effect on society as
a whole? Health and welfare messages have not been shown to "save
lives" on any large scale...a large scale such as a MILLION
displaced and homeless citizens in the Gulf states affected by
Katrina. Perhaps nearer to two MILLION people displace, homeless,
or dead when the tallies on human lives is more complete. The
scale of damage is too vast, too shattering to millions more.

Thousands and thousands of volunteers and paid workers are very
busy at the moment, doing many things of DIRECT AID to the
homeless and displaced, all WITHOUT any direct "need" to do radio
communications about "health and welfare messages." That's
important work. MOST (very nearly all) of that work can be done
WITHOUT a lot of radio communications. Coordination of effort
does require communications of some kind, but the "coordination"
of ALL agencies, paid and volunteer, were simply NOT prepared to
deal with the magnitude of damage and destruction that happened.
That includes amateur radio, folks, whether it smarts your little
egos or not. Did anyone really think that a few dozen hams
could really make a "difference" by sending health and welfare
messages from millions to other millions? No doubt the self-
proclaimed amateur patriots far from the disaster scene were
happy as larks to see the tiniest factoid of their Great Help
to the victims of hurricane Katrina. They have waved their
banners, cheered as loudly (and abusively) as possible, pinned
invisible medals of valor to their equally invisible uniforms
of service they wear in the newsgroups.

But, things eventually get sorted out and the REAL coordinators
can organize things, start to do the REAL rescue work such as
pumping out all those millions of acre-feet of flood water,
finding shelter and food and sanitation for a million or more
displaced and homeless people, trying to restore a large city
and many smaller cities along the Gulf. The REAL health workers
have been on the scene, pulling out bodies of the dead, measuring
the countryside for disease, taking steps to control insect-borne
diseases, preparing for the epidemics that might ravage the
survivors. REAL work, down on the nitty-gritty level, done by
those who KNOW what they are doing even though they are over-
whelmed by the enormity of the task.

Even the snide remarks of some lame slime from Motorola has been
laid waste.

"Lame slime?" :-) While some consider Public Relations folks
in that category, that's just inflamatory, ignorant rhetoric
from a nurse who has no provable record of past "experience" in
either radio communications or the electronics industry...a
wannabe-warrior who can only "fight" by cursing others who don't
agree with him. Disreputable activity.

Such inflammatory curse words are only in the minds of a few who
have NO REAL CONCEPT of the many and various communications systems
used by the "infrastructure." Motorola has been one of the leaders
in radio since World War 2...surviving when Hallicrafters and Zenith
and a number of other electronics industry biggies of the Chicago
area FAILED, dissolved, went bankrupt, became DEFUNCT.

The electronics industry of the United States IS HELPING, just as
it did after the NYC disaster of 11 Sep 01, shipping in professional
radio-electronics equipment from handhelds to "WiFi" and "WiMax"
whole systems to restore the BIG communications needs along the
Gulf coast. The evidence IS there in the "MAJOR news", in the
newspaper business section, in the press releases of major
electronics industry corporations. It isn't carried on the amateur
"news" from the ARRL...such is counter-productive to promoting the
ARRL and furthering the amateur mystique that some need to
justify their imaginary glory of having an amateur radio hobby.

The disaster of hurricane Katrina is of unparalleled proportions
and ALL humane-thinking citizens can do their part, however big,
however small. There is NO AID given to anyone or anything by
continuing an unrelenting stream of personal insults towards
others they know nothing of nor nothing about.

wrote:
From: "K4YZ" on Thurs 8 Sep 2005 23:39

I've noted that the usual rhetoric from the "Ham Radio Will Never
Get Through When Anything Fails" crowd, specifically from the patriarch
of the Feeble Five, Lennie "No Guts" Anderson, has waned in the face of
MAJOR media stories in all facets of "the press" that have lauded
Amateur Radio.

"Patriarch?!?" Not I, never having met in-person any of
those against the mighty warrior of "seven hostile actions,"
Dudly the Unconquerable...aka Dudly the Unhumbleable.

In other words, you're ducking. Amateur Radio is doing exactly
what you said it can't won't do.

All of those "paid professionals" that you claim do the
communicating with those high-priced, high tech systems, ie: Motorol,
are Johnnie-Come-Lately, are having to pause to wipe the crow from
thier faces before trying to answer up as to why they are DAYS behind
doing what those lowly Amateurs have been doing since Day One.

"Waned?!?" Life goes on 2000 miles away from the Katrina
hurricane devastation.

Louisiana is 2000 miles from you.

This newsgroup is only as far away as your keyboard.

Ahem...the "MAJOR media" are reporting as much as possible about
the Gulf Coast damage. That is of considerable quantity.

Uh huh.

And YOU are the one who always claims that Amateur Radio isn't the
"force" that it's own PR folks claim simply because there's not "major
media" coverage corroborating it.

Whelp...I consider Fox News, CNN, The Wall Street Journal, MSN,
etc, to be those "major media" resources.

Reporters, journalists, telecasters are all on-the-scene covering
an enormous area of extensive damage with many, many "human
interest" stories appearing. Anybody with a working TV set can
see/hear that; anybody with a working BC receiver can hear that.
Anyone able to read a major newspaper can read that. Anyone with
a working PC and an Internet connection can find that out.

YaddaYaddaYadda.........

The facts remain...Amateur Radio is doing EXACTLY the thing YOU
have claimed that they can't or won't do...

Snip of spin-doctoring.

Steve, K4YZ

K4YZ wrote:
wrote:
From: "K4YZ" on Thurs 8 Sep 2005 23:39

I've noted that the usual rhetoric from the "Ham Radio Will Never
Get Through When Anything Fails" crowd, specifically from the patriarch
of the Feeble Five, Lennie "No Guts" Anderson, has waned in the face of
MAJOR media stories in all facets of "the press" that have lauded
Amateur Radio.

"Patriarch?!?" Not I, never having met in-person any of
those against the mighty warrior of "seven hostile actions,"
Dudly the Unconquerable...aka Dudly the Unhumbleable.

In other words, you're ducking. Amateur Radio is doing exactly
what you said it can't won't do.

It is "ducking" to disclaim a title conferred by your enemy

and ARs is still not providing vital coms

cut excess hot air suggesting perhaps it be redirected to NO to help
dry the place out
And YOU are the one who always claims that Amateur Radio isn't the
"force" that it's own PR folks claim simply because there's not "major
media" coverage corroborating it.

Whelp...I consider Fox News, CNN, The Wall Street Journal, MSN,
etc, to be those "major media" resources.

I have been watching the news I don't see any coverage indacating that
the ARs is preforming a vital service. It is providing the H&W traffic,
important but nothing life saving

cuting more hot air, with the same suggestion as before

an_old_friend wrote:
K4YZ wrote:

wrote:

From: "K4YZ" on Thurs 8 Sep 2005 23:39

I've noted that the usual rhetoric from the "Ham Radio Will Never
Get Through When Anything Fails" crowd, specifically from the patriarch
of the Feeble Five, Lennie "No Guts" Anderson, has waned in the face of
MAJOR media stories in all facets of "the press" that have lauded
Amateur Radio.

"Patriarch?!?" Not I, never having met in-person any of
those against the mighty warrior of "seven hostile actions,"
Dudly the Unconquerable...aka Dudly the Unhumbleable.

In other words, you're ducking. Amateur Radio is doing exactly
what you said it can't won't do.


It is "ducking" to disclaim a title conferred by your enemy

and ARs is still not providing vital coms

cut excess hot air suggesting perhaps it be redirected to NO to help
dry the place out

And YOU are the one who always claims that Amateur Radio isn't the
"force" that it's own PR folks claim simply because there's not "major
media" coverage corroborating it.

Whelp...I consider Fox News, CNN, The Wall Street Journal, MSN,
etc, to be those "major media" resources.


I have been watching the news I don't see any coverage indacating that
the ARs is preforming a vital service. It is providing the H&W traffic,
important but nothing life saving

cuting more hot air, with the same suggestion as before

Than it is the news coverage that has missed the boat. I have listened
(BTW first rule for an emergency net, listen, don't transmit, unless
your help is needed) to the SATERN net (14.265) and heard relays of
quite a number of life saving messages - e.g. someone at such and such
an address needs to be rescued. Sounds like life saving to me.
John

John wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:
K4YZ wrote:

wrote:
cut
I have been watching the news I don't see any coverage indacating that
the ARs is preforming a vital service. It is providing the H&W traffic,
important but nothing life saving

cuting more hot air, with the same suggestion as before

Than it is the news coverage that has missed the boat. I have listened
(BTW first rule for an emergency net, listen, don't transmit, unless
your help is needed) to the SATERN net (14.265) and heard relays of
quite a number of life saving messages - e.g. someone at such and such
an address needs to be rescued. Sounds like life saving to me.
John
did you catch/record a city or such?

one of the reasons I keep asking and pressing is to help make sure we
as Hams know these things for the day when we will need them

"John" wrote in message
...


an_old_friend wrote:
K4YZ wrote:

wrote:

From: "K4YZ" on Thurs 8 Sep 2005 23:39

I've noted that the usual rhetoric from the "Ham Radio Will Never
Get Through When Anything Fails" crowd, specifically from the patriarch
of the Feeble Five, Lennie "No Guts" Anderson, has waned in the face of
MAJOR media stories in all facets of "the press" that have lauded
Amateur Radio.

"Patriarch?!?" Not I, never having met in-person any of
those against the mighty warrior of "seven hostile actions,"
Dudly the Unconquerable...aka Dudly the Unhumbleable.

In other words, you're ducking. Amateur Radio is doing exactly
what you said it can't won't do.


It is "ducking" to disclaim a title conferred by your enemy

and ARs is still not providing vital coms

cut excess hot air suggesting perhaps it be redirected to NO to help
dry the place out

And YOU are the one who always claims that Amateur Radio isn't the
"force" that it's own PR folks claim simply because there's not "major
media" coverage corroborating it.

Whelp...I consider Fox News, CNN, The Wall Street Journal, MSN,
etc, to be those "major media" resources.


I have been watching the news I don't see any coverage indacating that
the ARs is preforming a vital service. It is providing the H&W traffic,
important but nothing life saving

cuting more hot air, with the same suggestion as before

Than it is the news coverage that has missed the boat. I have listened
(BTW first rule for an emergency net, listen, don't transmit, unless your
help is needed) to the SATERN net (14.265) and heard relays of quite a
number of life saving messages - e.g. someone at such and such an address
needs to be rescued. Sounds like life saving to me.
John

And I also have been hearing MARS passing life-saving traffic. Uh, MARS
is.............er, what? HAMS! And I've also heard the SAtern net doing the
same. "Mrs. X is out of insulin, critical need at such 'n such place". "Be
careful wading around there, we saw some water moccasins swimming there".
(Have you ever SEEN a cotton mouth, Mr Anderson)

It is not just H & W traffic; the ham volunteers are in place to facilitate
communications whatever the message.
They were onscene almost immediately doing what they have always done; a
part in the total scheme of things. How MUCH ham radio does is immaterial,
or WHAT traffic they pass is not important. They ARE there doing what they
can just as I would if I were called. This bickering, snipping, arguing
about the "uselessness" of ham radio is stupid and those that who armchair
quarterback from 1000 miles away don't know what they are talking about just
as I don't know what is going on in NO. But I CAN monitor what is happening
and I know that the military, CAP, church relief organizations, Red Cross,
AND Amateur Radio are doing whatever they can to contribute to the effort.

The thread began pre-Katrina and was basically about how Amateur Radio was
"useless" or irrelevant to disasters--even how the wonderfully "organized"
CBers could provide "communications into and out of a stricken area---along
with the usually attacks and accusations.

The bottom line is, hams ARE providing a service. Some of it is Health and
Welfare traffic, some of it is vital communications concerning threats to
life and property. I'm sitting here LISTENING to it, dammit! So let's quit
yelling at each other and get back to work whether it be wading thru
several feet of water, looking for victims, passing the most mundane of
messages, OR opening our wallets to donate money or supplies.
]
Jerry

Jerry wrote:
"John" wrote in message
...
cut
I have been watching the news I don't see any coverage indacating that
the ARs is preforming a vital service. It is providing the H&W traffic,
important but nothing life saving

cuting more hot air, with the same suggestion as before

Than it is the news coverage that has missed the boat. I have listened
(BTW first rule for an emergency net, listen, don't transmit, unless your
help is needed) to the SATERN net (14.265) and heard relays of quite a
number of life saving messages - e.g. someone at such and such an address
needs to be rescued. Sounds like life saving to me.
John

And I also have been hearing MARS passing life-saving traffic. Uh, MARS
is.............er, what? HAMS! And I've also heard the SAtern net doing the
same. "Mrs. X is out of insulin, critical need at such 'n such place". "Be
careful wading around there, we saw some water moccasins swimming there".
(Have you ever SEEN a cotton mouth, Mr Anderson)

It is not just H & W traffic; the ham volunteers are in place to facilitate
communications whatever the message.
They were onscene almost immediately doing what they have always done; a
part in the total scheme of things. How MUCH ham radio does is immaterial,
or WHAT traffic they pass is not important.

Both are relavant points and point we need to be able to answer with
facts not generalities

They ARE there doing what they
can just as I would if I were called. This bickering, snipping, arguing
about the "uselessness" of ham radio is stupid and those that who armchair
quarterback from 1000 miles away don't know what they are talking about just
as I don't know what is going on in NO. But I CAN monitor what is happening
and I know that the military, CAP, church relief organizations, Red Cross,
AND Amateur Radio are doing whatever they can to contribute to the effort.

indeed why is it when someone is questioning the vitalness they are
calling something useless

The thread began pre-Katrina and was basically about how Amateur Radio was
"useless" or irrelevant to disasters--even how the wonderfully "organized"
CBers could provide "communications into and out of a stricken area---along
with the usually attacks and accusations.

again overdrawing

The bottom line is, hams ARE providing a service. Some of it is Health and
Welfare traffic, some of it is vital communications concerning threats to
life and property. I'm sitting here LISTENING to it, dammit! So let's quit
yelling at each other and get back to work whether it be wading thru
several feet of water, looking for victims, passing the most mundane of
messages, OR opening our wallets to donate money or supplies.

indeed the only yelling I seeing is from the side that says one may not
question the content or the value of the message
]
Jerry

"an_old_friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

K4YZ wrote:
wrote:
From: "K4YZ" on Thurs 8 Sep 2005 23:39

I've noted that the usual rhetoric from the "Ham Radio Will Never
Get Through When Anything Fails" crowd, specifically from the
patriarch
of the Feeble Five, Lennie "No Guts" Anderson, has waned in the face
of
MAJOR media stories in all facets of "the press" that have lauded
Amateur Radio.

"Patriarch?!?" Not I, never having met in-person any of
those against the mighty warrior of "seven hostile actions,"
Dudly the Unconquerable...aka Dudly the Unhumbleable.

In other words, you're ducking. Amateur Radio is doing exactly
what you said it can't won't do.

It is "ducking" to disclaim a title conferred by your enemy

and ARs is still not providing vital coms

cut excess hot air suggesting perhaps it be redirected to NO to help
dry the place out
And YOU are the one who always claims that Amateur Radio isn't the
"force" that it's own PR folks claim simply because there's not "major
media" coverage corroborating it.

Whelp...I consider Fox News, CNN, The Wall Street Journal, MSN,
etc, to be those "major media" resources.

I have been watching the news I don't see any coverage indacating that
the ARs is preforming a vital service. It is providing the H&W traffic,
important but nothing life saving

cuting more hot air, with the same suggestion as before


Just what do you consider "VITAL COMMS" ???

Lets get some specifics here . Then we shall see the Ham community tear you
a new one.

Dan/W4NTI

"Jerry" wrote in message
...

"John" wrote in message
...


an_old_friend wrote:
K4YZ wrote:

wrote:

From: "K4YZ" on Thurs 8 Sep 2005 23:39

I've noted that the usual rhetoric from the "Ham Radio Will Never
Get Through When Anything Fails" crowd, specifically from the
patriarch
of the Feeble Five, Lennie "No Guts" Anderson, has waned in the face
of
MAJOR media stories in all facets of "the press" that have lauded
Amateur Radio.

"Patriarch?!?" Not I, never having met in-person any of
those against the mighty warrior of "seven hostile actions,"
Dudly the Unconquerable...aka Dudly the Unhumbleable.

In other words, you're ducking. Amateur Radio is doing exactly
what you said it can't won't do.


It is "ducking" to disclaim a title conferred by your enemy

and ARs is still not providing vital coms

cut excess hot air suggesting perhaps it be redirected to NO to help
dry the place out

And YOU are the one who always claims that Amateur Radio isn't the
"force" that it's own PR folks claim simply because there's not "major
media" coverage corroborating it.

Whelp...I consider Fox News, CNN, The Wall Street Journal, MSN,
etc, to be those "major media" resources.


I have been watching the news I don't see any coverage indacating that
the ARs is preforming a vital service. It is providing the H&W traffic,
important but nothing life saving

cuting more hot air, with the same suggestion as before

Than it is the news coverage that has missed the boat. I have listened
(BTW first rule for an emergency net, listen, don't transmit, unless your
help is needed) to the SATERN net (14.265) and heard relays of quite a
number of life saving messages - e.g. someone at such and such an address
needs to be rescued. Sounds like life saving to me.
John

And I also have been hearing MARS passing life-saving traffic. Uh, MARS
is.............er, what? HAMS! And I've also heard the SAtern net doing
the same. "Mrs. X is out of insulin, critical need at such 'n such place".
"Be careful wading around there, we saw some water moccasins swimming
there". (Have you ever SEEN a cotton mouth, Mr Anderson)

It is not just H & W traffic; the ham volunteers are in place to
facilitate communications whatever the message.
They were onscene almost immediately doing what they have always done; a
part in the total scheme of things. How MUCH ham radio does is immaterial,
or WHAT traffic they pass is not important. They ARE there doing what they
can just as I would if I were called. This bickering, snipping, arguing
about the "uselessness" of ham radio is stupid and those that who armchair
quarterback from 1000 miles away don't know what they are talking about
just as I don't know what is going on in NO. But I CAN monitor what is
happening and I know that the military, CAP, church relief organizations,
Red Cross, AND Amateur Radio are doing whatever they can to contribute to
the effort.

The thread began pre-Katrina and was basically about how Amateur Radio was
"useless" or irrelevant to disasters--even how the wonderfully "organized"
CBers could provide "communications into and out of a stricken
area---along with the usually attacks and accusations.

The bottom line is, hams ARE providing a service. Some of it is Health and
Welfare traffic, some of it is vital communications concerning threats to
life and property. I'm sitting here LISTENING to it, dammit! So let's quit
yelling at each other and get back to work whether it be wading thru
several feet of water, looking for victims, passing the most mundane of
messages, OR opening our wallets to donate money or supplies.
]
Jerry


Bravo Jerry....well put. I assure you there are very few folks here that
share the view of 'an old friend'.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"an_old_friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

K4YZ wrote:
wrote:
From: "K4YZ" on Thurs 8 Sep 2005 23:39

I've noted that the usual rhetoric from the "Ham Radio Will Never
Get Through When Anything Fails" crowd, specifically from the
patriarch
of the Feeble Five, Lennie "No Guts" Anderson, has waned in the face
of
MAJOR media stories in all facets of "the press" that have lauded
Amateur Radio.

"Patriarch?!?" Not I, never having met in-person any of
those against the mighty warrior of "seven hostile actions,"
Dudly the Unconquerable...aka Dudly the Unhumbleable.

In other words, you're ducking. Amateur Radio is doing exactly
what you said it can't won't do.

It is "ducking" to disclaim a title conferred by your enemy

and ARs is still not providing vital coms

cut excess hot air suggesting perhaps it be redirected to NO to help
dry the place out
And YOU are the one who always claims that Amateur Radio isn't the
"force" that it's own PR folks claim simply because there's not "major
media" coverage corroborating it.

Whelp...I consider Fox News, CNN, The Wall Street Journal, MSN,
etc, to be those "major media" resources.

I have been watching the news I don't see any coverage indacating that
the ARs is preforming a vital service. It is providing the H&W traffic,
important but nothing life saving

cuting more hot air, with the same suggestion as before


Just what do you consider "VITAL COMMS" ???

as i have said Vital ops are those that can't be handled by other
means, the failure of which to get through will cause substancail harm
to many people or additonal damage to infrastructure

Since the post the post you are quoting I have heard of some
lifesavinng messgae but would stand behind the revised assertion that
most of the ARS traffic is H&W with some life saving traffic in the mix

But what I am seeing described is retail aid, in a disater of
wholescale proprotions

important but not vital

What traffic is being passed by the ARS that would affect the headlines
in this disaster, the only headlines that would be affected are the one
mentioning us by name

Vital comms

I have been informed that the ARS can normaly allow to be complied list
of people in the shelters of the affected areas, I hear from SecHS
mouth that no such list yet exists after how many days

Indeed I can recall being regalled with how Cw would rise to pass large
volumes of traffic for us in a disater such as this

Lets get some specifics here . Then we shall see the Ham community tear you
a new one.

Why BTW is someone holding the opinion that th ARS operations in
Katrina are important and valueble but not al though vital such a
threat to your ego?

the ARS is doing better than I expected out of this, but not at all as
well as we have been lead to believe it could do

Dan/W4NTI