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-   -   05-235 - Any new procode test arguments? (https://www.radiobanter.com/policy/81521-05-235-any-new-procode-test-arguments.html)

[email protected] December 6th 05 06:28 AM

Easier licensing
 
From: Bill Sohl on Dec 5, 6:48 am

wrote in message
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
K؈B wrote:
wrote


snip

First off, there's the reduction in code testing. Also code
waivers. Elimination of the sending test, the one-minute-
solid copy requirement, etc. But let's put those aside and
look at the writtens:


1) there's the official publication of the written exams.


Did the ARRL or any other ham organization petition
for the test questions to be published?


Not that I know of. The move to the VEC system was made by
FCC. Making the tests public was an unavoidable consequence
of the VEC system.


License examination privatization happed to BOTH the
commercial radio operator license exams as well as
radio amateurs.

There was no "VEC system" any more than it was a "COLEM
system."

Besides, if the FCC couldn't keep them
secret from Dick Bash back when FCC made up and controlled
the test distribution, how could anyone expect they could do it
when the VEs ran the testing?


There were no "secrets" prior to the "Bash Books" since
the essential questions were included in the "Q & A"
books available in the 1950s.

The copyright laws of the United States haven't changed
appreciably since 1950 insofar as the federal government
has NO copyright on anything it publishes. One example
that should be familiar to civilians looking at news
stands is J. K. Lassers Income Tax guide books which
include copies of all IRS forms.



It's the difference between knowing a little bit of the basics
of a wide variety of subjects vs. an in-depth
knowledge of fewer subjects. Most people find
the latter to be more challenging.


Amd you know this to be true based on what scientific
study/analysis?

And again, who asked for that or drove that change?


Those who don't like the amateur radio license examination
written questions can communicate with the VEC Question
Pool Committee. The VEC QPC makes up ALL the questions
for EACH class' written examinations.

That situation is eminently fair to me and should be to
all radio amateurs desiring the "clubhouse" kind of
"community." :-)

It seems more likely that the longer a complainant has
been licensed, the smarter they are, and the newcomers
are way dumber than they, the OTs, were. :-)



Have they really proposed a new license?
Or (just) different privileges for the existing one?


In another reply to your question,
Len stated the ARRL has filed both proposals.
I'll take his word on that.


ARRL's Petition RM-10867. ARRL's Comments filed on 31
October 2005 on NPRM 05-143 is partly a slight rewrite
of RM-10867. [Chris is trying very hard to get his
handiwork approved? :-) ]

ARRL's new "petition" (no RM assignment yet) calls
for a revision of the "band plans." That is
accessible from their www.arrl.org splash page.

As to a new beginners license, I (me alone) would
support that idea...but I think we need to approach
that concept slowly by the following path:

1. FCC drops code test as currently proposed
2. The ham community (ARRL, etc) monitors closely
the entrance/addition of new (i.e. never before) hams
and upgrades of existing hams for at least a couple of years.
3.After two years, we assess if any problem exists
regarding the ability to gain new hams.


Whatever. :-) First item is excellent. Second, okay.
Does there really need to be an "assessment" as in the
third? What "assessments" were done in the past?




Bill Sohl December 6th 05 03:11 PM

Easier licensing
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
From: Bill Sohl on Dec 5, 6:48 am
As to a new beginners license, I (me alone) would
support that idea...but I think we need to approach
that concept slowly by the following path:

1. FCC drops code test as currently proposed
2. The ham community (ARRL, etc) monitors closely
the entrance/addition of new (i.e. never before) hams
and upgrades of existing hams for at least a couple of years.
3.After two years, we assess if any problem exists
regarding the ability to gain new hams.


Whatever. :-) First item is excellent. Second, okay.
Does there really need to be an "assessment" as in the
third? What "assessments" were done in the past?


Assessment, review, whatever. I personally think the
current 3 level license structure does not reflect a
good starting path for new hams because Techs are
(a) only allowed VHF, yet they have (b) power
privileges for full 1500 watts. My personal view is
to have a beginners license with a variety of HF
and VHF access and modes but with a limited power output
(say 200 watts or less).

The current 3 licenses and privileges are the
result of piecepart change over time and the result has
some less than logical consequences regarding
privileges and entrance level testing when compared
to the Novice tests which we had for almost 50
years. YMMV.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK





Dee Flint December 7th 05 01:00 AM

Easier licensing
 

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
t...

wrote in message
oups.com...
From: Bill Sohl on Dec 5, 6:48 am
As to a new beginners license, I (me alone) would
support that idea...but I think we need to approach
that concept slowly by the following path:

1. FCC drops code test as currently proposed
2. The ham community (ARRL, etc) monitors closely
the entrance/addition of new (i.e. never before) hams
and upgrades of existing hams for at least a couple of years.
3.After two years, we assess if any problem exists
regarding the ability to gain new hams.


Whatever. :-) First item is excellent. Second, okay.
Does there really need to be an "assessment" as in the
third? What "assessments" were done in the past?


Assessment, review, whatever. I personally think the
current 3 level license structure does not reflect a
good starting path for new hams because Techs are
(a) only allowed VHF, yet they have (b) power
privileges for full 1500 watts. My personal view is
to have a beginners license with a variety of HF
and VHF access and modes but with a limited power output
(say 200 watts or less).

The current 3 licenses and privileges are the
result of piecepart change over time and the result has
some less than logical consequences regarding
privileges and entrance level testing when compared
to the Novice tests which we had for almost 50
years. YMMV.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK


Well I would propose dropping the Tech altogether and upping the General
written to 50 question test once the code is dropped. The difference in
technical material is not great and it's not that hard to memorize the
difference in privileges.

Once the code is dropped, in the classes that I teach, I will combine the
material and encourage all the students to go straight to General. There
really won't be a need for an introductory license.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE



[email protected] December 7th 05 01:35 AM

Easier licensing
 
From: Bill Sohl on Dec 6, 6:11 am

wrote in message



As to a new beginners license, I (me alone) would
support that idea...but I think we need to approach
that concept slowly by the following path:


1. FCC drops code test as currently proposed
2. The ham community (ARRL, etc) monitors closely
the entrance/addition of new (i.e. never before) hams
and upgrades of existing hams for at least a couple of years.
3.After two years, we assess if any problem exists
regarding the ability to gain new hams.


Whatever. :-) First item is excellent. Second, okay.
Does there really need to be an "assessment" as in the
third? What "assessments" were done in the past?


Assessment, review, whatever. I personally think the
current 3 level license structure does not reflect a
good starting path for new hams because Techs are
(a) only allowed VHF, yet they have (b) power
privileges for full 1500 watts. My personal view is
to have a beginners license with a variety of HF
and VHF access and modes but with a limited power output
(say 200 watts or less).


I'm not convinced that a "starting path" is necessary.

Firstly, having grades or levels of license is too
much like the traditional union concept of work with
levels of apprentice-journeyman-master. Amateur radio
isn't a union nor a guild nor a craft. Differing
levels/classes of license only reinforce the already-
present class-distinction social divisions in U.S.
amateur radio. It is a HOBBY, a recreational pursuit
done for enjoyment of radio, not on achieving some
artifice of social standing. Plenty of other
organizations exist for social climbers looking for
status and title.

Operating a radio transmitter is, in reality, not a
complex task nor is "amateur radio operation" some
kind of mystical event, requiring perfect
incantations to have some magic occur. Unlicensed
(in radio) public safety people routinely do that.
Unlicensed (in radio) aircraft crew routinely do that.
Unlicensed (in radio) business people routinely do
that. Dozens of other examples are available where
unlicensed-in-radio individuals routinely operate
radio transmitters without some long "training"
period of months or years in order to be "proper"
operators in radio. I see absolutely no reason for
amateur radio people engaging in a hobby to do that
sort of thing...except to salve the egos of the long-
"tenured" "senior" amateurs.

The current 3 licenses and privileges are the
result of piecepart change over time and the result has
some less than logical consequences regarding
privileges and entrance level testing when compared
to the Novice tests which we had for almost 50
years. YMMV.


My odometer reads the same as yours on regulations'
evolution of continuing piece-part changing. That is
a consequence of radio politics, and NOT, in my view,
of any "necessity" to have a layered system of
classes for a hobby. EM-space doesn't recognize
"classes" OR human politics; electrons, fields, and
waves are all unaffected by human regulations or
emotion or "needs" to stratify standing within some
"fellowship."

The Novice class license is a failure in the long
run. While it might have been a good idea at the
beginning for some to "get their feet wet" (in radio
waters), it started off badly with the emotional
baggage of its class title, "Novice." As viewed
from afar, it served only to initiate the completely
ferklempt with "proper" radiotelegraphy procedure
and with the "proper" jargon (which had evolved in
the particular activity of amateur radio)...not to
mention having the "proper attitude" of worship and
respect of "elders" (who thought they "ran" things).
That can work on typical teen-agers who have yet to
experience more of life and the variety of humans
who exist in the real world. It does not work well
with adults.

Longevity of a regulation such as "novice" or
"beginner" or "entrant" in a field such as radio and
communications that has constantly been evolving over
the last half-century is not a logical necessity to
keep those regulations. Time has shown that the
newcomers have shunned the Novice class for decades;
its class numbers are continuously decreasing.

Concentration on getting young newcomers into a hobby
field seems driven more by some basic paternal drive
to "guide and educate the kids." Perhaps its a by-
product of parenthood or a surrogate for that? It is
misplaced in a "community" whose active members are
predominently adult. Children don't have the monetary
base to build market sales which serve to benefit the
adults. Children don't have the experience to run
events or keep organizations (predominently adult)
together. At best, the drive to "get youngsters
interested" in a primarly-adult hobby seems to be
little more than eyewash, using politically-correct
psycho phrases.

On the other hand, targeting an entrance drive for
amateur radio to teenagers will tend to steer them
away from their contemporaries' activities...those
activities having evolved to fit that peer group and
not necessarily that of adults. It will serve to show
those beginners that there is an unknown facet of the
adult world ahead. It can also serve to alienate
them from their own peer group by making them
"different." That is a not-good thing among teen-
agers who seek the stability of "their" group, a
natural psychological need in that part of their life.

My own experience on "entering HF" were rather drastic
in "apprenticeship" consisting only of a few days (at
most). So were the 4 newcomers with me, none of us
having been schooled on high-power HF transmitters.
We were shown how to do it by more senior signalmen
and we did it. Those that did it wrong were shown
why and had to practice getting it right. No re-
criminations leveled, no "chewings out," no
ostracizing. We all learned and did our tasks (some
of which were considerably more complicated than any
found in amateur radio operating). So did those that
came before us and those that came after us.

I can draw a parallel to the activities of infantry,
armor, and artillery soldiers who had to learn how to
operate radios necessary for military communications.
They did it by the thousands upon thousands of soldiers,
nearly all of them inexperienced in using any radio other
than a broadcast receiver before their service. Those
that say "they only push the button and talk" are doing
them an extreme disservice since there is considerably
more to do than that. Radio training for line outfits
is abbreviated to, at most, a couple weeks with most of
that being branch-specific procedural matters. Now,
if they can all do that successfully in a short time,
it makes no logical sense to have class stratification
of being held in one class for a year or more.




[email protected] December 7th 05 02:31 AM

Easier licensing
 
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
KØHB wrote:
wrote
But since about the mid 1980s, we've been told that
the requirementsare "too high"....

Who told you that? Not FCC. Not ARRL. Not me.

It has been shown by the actions of the first two, and others.

In other words, that is your opinion based
on your view of certain actions of others but
you have NO example where anyone has
said the requirements are too high. So the
reality is that we have NOT been told by
anyone that the requirements are too high.


Here are some more examples:

- ARRL has proposed free (no test) upgrades for many hams.
These proposed free upgrades included Novices and Tech
Pluses getting Generals with no additional testing, and Advanceds
getting Extras with no additional testing.
While they don't come right out and say
the requirements are too high, proposing that hundreds of thousands
of hams get an upgrade without taking the required tests effectively
says the test requirements - the *written* test requirements - are
too high.


bunk! Your logic is failed because those free upgrades were
proposed as a one time only set of upgrades to get people
to a newly aligned set of licenses and privileges without
subjecting anyone to a lose of privileges.


I don't think it's "bunk" at all. Neither does FCC.

Here's why:

ARRL proposed that Technicians and Tech Pluses get a free upgrade to
General without taking any tests.

Any such action by FCC would need an effective date - a date when the
rules would change, and the free upgrade would take effect.

A new amateur who earned the Technician the day before the effective
date would get the free upgrade, just like all other Techs. The result
would be that Generals who hadn't taken the General test would
outnumber Generals who *had* taken the General test.

Worse, new hams who were licensed after the effective date would still
have
to pass the General exam.

IOW, if the effective date were February 1, a Tech first licensed on
January 31
would be a General on February 2, yet have only taken the Tech test.
But a new
ham licensed on Feb 2 would have to take the General test for the same
privileges. IOW, new hams would have to pass more and harder tests for
the
same privileges that others got for free.

Or to put it plainly:

If the General test isn't needed for those who got the free upgrade,
why is it
needed at all?

Free upgrades would effectively lower the requirements.


Ditto my last comment.


FCC agrees with me, though.

NCI agreed with the ARRL proposal on the free upgrades, btw.
But FCC disagreed and denied all proposals for free upgrades.
FCC cited the comments of certain people in that denial - see
footnote 142 in the NPRM. (ahem)


OK, no point there.

- NCVEC's "Amateur Radio In the 21st Century" paper is
full of the idea that the requirements are too high, particularly
for the entry-level license class. Their second proposal followed
the "21st Century" paper closely.


Prior to 2000, was the Novice too high?


Not for the privileges granted.

If the FCC went back or
changed Tech to a Novice level test (retaining the
General and Extra as is) would that bother you?


If it retained the privileges, yes.

First off, there's the reduction in code testing. Also code
waivers. Elimination of the sending test, the one-minute-
solid copy requirement, etc. But let's put those aside and
look at the writtens:

1) there's the official publication of the written exams.

Did the ARRL or any other ham organization petition
for the test questions to be published?

Not that I know of. The move to the VEC system was made by
FCC. Making the tests public was an unavoidable consequence
of the VEC system. Besides, if the FCC couldn't keep them
secret from Dick Bash back when FCC made up and controlled
the test distribution, how could anyone expect they could do it
when the VEs ran the testing?


Publicizing the exact Q&A makes the requirements lower because
the prospective ham knows exactly what will be on the test, down
to the exact wording, and the exact correct answers. Big difference
from secret tests!


Yawn.... BUT publishing the questions was never proposed
by ARRL. That being so, who in the FCC do you
attribute the change to?


Those who wanted to save money by getting FCC out of the exam-giving
process.

(SNIP)

I think not. I have been a VE at several sessions here
in NJ and have never seen anyone allowed to take the
exact same test a second time on that same session
regardless of paying an additional fee. The reality also
is that the VEs running the session have no desire to
allow anyone to just stay all day/night until the applicant's
money runs out.


Yet they allow it. In the bad old days there was a mandatory
30 day wait to retest. Which meant a lot of us went to the
test *really* prepared because coming back was not that
easy.


So? If someone wants to risk failing that's their choice.
It's a real stretch to consider that making requirements easier.


I disagree.

(SNIP)

As to a new beginners license, I (me alone) would
support that idea...but I think we need to approach
that concept slowly by the following path:

1. FCC drops code test as currently proposed


Will probably happen regardless of anything else.

2. The ham community (ARRL, etc) monitors closely
the entrance/addition of new (i.e. never before) hams
and upgrades of existing hams for at least a couple of years.


Someone would have to do this in a structured way, by downloading
the entire database at regular intervals (say once a month) and
analyzing it a la AH0A.


ARRL is perfectly capable of that I'm sure.


But somebody has to pay for it. And you can bet that whatever
numbers ARRL puts out, some will say they are "massaged" and
accuse the ARRL of "fraud" and such.

It would not be possible to determine "never before" hams as
opposed to "retreads" without a lot of historic info.


The number of "retreads" is propably a very small percentage
of those that appear as new.

Agreed.

Upgrades could be derived by comparing the current license class
of each license with the license class from the previous analysis.


OK

3.After two years, we assess if any problem exists
regarding the ability to gain new hams.

Sounds reasonable, except who is going to "bell the cat" - do all
the analysis work?


ARRL can do it.


How do we get them to do it?

It's also important to understand the effect of impending changes.

If the rules are fairly stable, newcomers and potential upgraders
have an incentive to pass the tests.

But if there are possible changes coming that will reduce the
requirements, at least some will simply wait to see how
things turn out. Why study for a test that will be gone in a
few months - or one that you won't have to take because ARRL
got you a free upgrade?
Sure, some will "go for it" but others will hold back.


I could care less about those that might want to wait for
changes they have no assurance are coming.


But those changes have an enormous impact on the numbers.
That's the point, whether we care about it or not.

73 de Jim, N2EY


an_old_friend December 7th 05 06:07 AM

Easier licensing
 

wrote:
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:

cut
bunk! Your logic is failed because those free upgrades were
proposed as a one time only set of upgrades to get people
to a newly aligned set of licenses and privileges without
subjecting anyone to a lose of privileges.


I don't think it's "bunk" at all. Neither does FCC.


now you speak for the FCC

Here's why:

ARRL proposed that Technicians and Tech Pluses get a free upgrade to
General without taking any tests.

Any such action by FCC would need an effective date - a date when the
rules would change, and the free upgrade would take effect.

A new amateur who earned the Technician the day before the effective
date would get the free upgrade, just like all other Techs. The result
would be that Generals who hadn't taken the General test would
outnumber Generals who *had* taken the General test.


so what

what I see you is you cintinueing your whining
cut


Bill Sohl December 7th 05 03:51 PM

Easier licensing
 

wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
Here are some more examples:
- ARRL has proposed free (no test) upgrades for many hams.
These proposed free upgrades included Novices and Tech
Pluses getting Generals with no additional testing, and Advanceds
getting Extras with no additional testing.
While they don't come right out and say
the requirements are too high, proposing that hundreds of thousands
of hams get an upgrade without taking the required tests effectively
says the test requirements - the *written* test requirements - are
too high.


bunk! Your logic is failed because those free upgrades were
proposed as a one time only set of upgrades to get people
to a newly aligned set of licenses and privileges without
subjecting anyone to a lose of privileges.


I don't think it's "bunk" at all. Neither does FCC.


The FCC never considered it a long term lowering of requirements
on any permananent basis. That is YOUR conclusion only.

Here's why:
ARRL proposed that Technicians and Tech Pluses get a free upgrade to
General without taking any tests.

Any such action by FCC would need an effective date - a date when the
rules would change, and the free upgrade would take effect.

A new amateur who earned the Technician the day before the effective
date would get the free upgrade, just like all other Techs. The result
would be that Generals who hadn't taken the General test would
outnumber Generals who *had* taken the General test.

Worse, new hams who were licensed after the effective date would still
have to pass the General exam.


That is NOT the reason the FCC rejected the idea. The FCC
seems much more aligned with the idea of minimum changes
for now and a wait and see attitude. (IMHO)

IOW, if the effective date were February 1, a Tech first licensed
on January 31 would be a General on February 2, yet have
only taken the Tech test. But a new

ham licensed on Feb 2 would have to take the General test for
the same privileges. IOW, new hams would have to pass more
and harder tests for the same privileges that others got for free.


Again, none of your argument presented here was a part of the FCC
commentary. You may believe it is so, but the FCC never stated
it as so.


Or to put it plainly:

If the General test isn't needed for those who got the free
upgrade, why is it needed at all?


Please point out wwhere the FCC said that.

Free upgrades would effectively lower the requirements.


Ditto my last comment.


FCC agrees with me, though.


No they didn't. The FCC never said anything even close to
what you are concluding.

- NCVEC's "Amateur Radio In the 21st Century" paper is
full of the idea that the requirements are too high, particularly
for the entry-level license class. Their second proposal followed
the "21st Century" paper closely.


Prior to 2000, was the Novice too high?


Not for the privileges granted.

If the FCC went back or
changed Tech to a Novice level test (retaining the
General and Extra as is) would that bother you?


If it retained the privileges, yes.


And if it didn't retain the privileges, should the FCC
(a) lower privileges for all existing techs or (b) ??

(snip)

Publicizing the exact Q&A makes the requirements lower because
the prospective ham knows exactly what will be on the test, down
to the exact wording, and the exact correct answers. Big difference
from secret tests!


Yawn.... BUT publishing the questions was never proposed
by ARRL. That being so, who in the FCC do you
attribute the change to?


Those who wanted to save money by getting FCC out of the
exam-giving process.


So the reality is that no one in the ham community pushed that.
I'll conclude then that anytime the FCC proposes a change
even if not originated in the ham community, if you view it
as a lowering of requirements then it is automatically bad
per your opinion.

(SNIP)

I think not. I have been a VE at several sessions here
in NJ and have never seen anyone allowed to take the
exact same test a second time on that same session
regardless of paying an additional fee. The reality also
is that the VEs running the session have no desire to
allow anyone to just stay all day/night until the applicant's
money runs out.

Yet they allow it. In the bad old days there was a mandatory
30 day wait to retest. Which meant a lot of us went to the
test *really* prepared because coming back was not that
easy.


So? If someone wants to risk failing that's their choice.
It's a real stretch to consider that making requirements easier.


I disagree.


WHY must there be a waiting period? If applicant X passes
a different test at the same VE session, the applicant has
still passed the test. If the applicant had taken the one he
nowed passed after failing a different one first then the
applicant passed...PERIOD. You seem to want a punitive
element attached to failing such that the applicant is
prohibited from retesting for 'N' period of time. There
is NO rhyme or reason to why you want that.

(SNIP)

As to a new beginners license, I (me alone) would
support that idea...but I think we need to approach
that concept slowly by the following path:

1. FCC drops code test as currently proposed

Will probably happen regardless of anything else.

2. The ham community (ARRL, etc) monitors closely
the entrance/addition of new (i.e. never before) hams
and upgrades of existing hams for at least a couple of years.

Someone would have to do this in a structured way, by downloading
the entire database at regular intervals (say once a month) and
analyzing it a la AH0A.


ARRL is perfectly capable of that I'm sure.


But somebody has to pay for it.


ARRL has more than enough ability to fund such a study or
simply assign the task to one of the permanent ARRL staffers.

And you can bet that whatever
numbers ARRL puts out, some will say they are "massaged" and
accuse the ARRL of "fraud" and such.


WHO cares? There is always someone that will take issue
with any study conclusion, analysis, ets. If you expect
a 100% agreed to set of review and analysis as the end
result, tyhen yu're expecting the impossible.

(Snip)

3.After two years, we assess if any problem exists
regarding the ability to gain new hams.

Sounds reasonable, except who is going to "bell the cat" -
do the analysis work?


ARRL can do it.


How do we get them to do it?


Given the analysis I've seen before presented in QST on
various subjects, especially as to ham population and,
indirectly ARRL membership, I'll bet the ARRL is always
looking at ham and new ham numbers.

It's also important to understand the effect of impending changes.
If the rules are fairly stable, newcomers and potential upgraders
have an incentive to pass the tests.

But if there are possible changes coming that will reduce the
requirements, at least some will simply wait to see how
things turn out. Why study for a test that will be gone in a
few months - or one that you won't have to take because ARRL
got you a free upgrade?
Sure, some will "go for it" but others will hold back.


I could care less about those that might want to wait for
changes they have no assurance are coming.


But those changes have an enormous impact on the numbers.
That's the point, whether we care about it or not.


The percent of people that might ultimately wait for "possible"
(emphasis on possible as opposed to actual)
future changes is, I suspect small. Odds are that there aren't
many current techs waiting for future free upgrades nor
where there likly many that shelved their upgrade plans
when the ARRL first proposed free upgrades. (IMHO of
course).

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK




Bill Sohl December 7th 05 04:12 PM

Easier licensing
 

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
. ..

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
t...

wrote in message
oups.com...
From: Bill Sohl on Dec 5, 6:48 am
As to a new beginners license, I (me alone) would
support that idea...but I think we need to approach
that concept slowly by the following path:

1. FCC drops code test as currently proposed
2. The ham community (ARRL, etc) monitors closely
the entrance/addition of new (i.e. never before) hams
and upgrades of existing hams for at least a couple of years.
3.After two years, we assess if any problem exists
regarding the ability to gain new hams.

Whatever. :-) First item is excellent. Second, okay.
Does there really need to be an "assessment" as in the
third? What "assessments" were done in the past?


Assessment, review, whatever. I personally think the
current 3 level license structure does not reflect a
good starting path for new hams because Techs are
(a) only allowed VHF, yet they have (b) power
privileges for full 1500 watts. My personal view is
to have a beginners license with a variety of HF
and VHF access and modes but with a limited power output
(say 200 watts or less).

The current 3 licenses and privileges are the
result of piecemeal change over time and the result has
some less than logical consequences regarding
privileges and entrance level testing when compared
to the Novice tests which we had for almost 50
years. YMMV. Bill K2UNK


Well I would propose dropping the Tech altogether and upping the General
written to 50 question test once the code is dropped. The difference in
technical material is not great and it's not that hard to memorize the
difference in privileges.


Sounds reasonable to me. My ultimate view/perspective...
we need a tiered license structure that makes sense.

Once the code is dropped, in the classes that I teach, I will combine the
material and encourage all the students to go straight to General. There
really won't be a need for an introductory license.


But they'll still need to approach the testing on a two element
basis.

My question to you...
should there be a true introductory license to bring
new hams, especially youth, to ham radio along the lines
of the previous Novice. THE only reason (IMHO)
that Novice ceased to be the entry level exam
was because Novice didn't get folks the majority of
repeater operation which is now a mainstay of
ham radio.

Back in the 50s and 60s (until '68 anyway) we really only
had 3 licenses: Novice, Tech and General with the ONLY
difference between Tech and General being
13 wpm vs 5 wpm...and that was until 1987.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK



[email protected] December 8th 05 12:12 AM

Easier licensing
 

Bill Sohl wrote:

Assessment, review, whatever. I personally think the
current 3 level license structure does not reflect a
good starting path for new hams because Techs are
(a) only allowed VHF, yet they have (b) power
privileges for full 1500 watts. My personal view is
to have a beginners license with a variety of HF
and VHF access and modes but with a limited power output
(say 200 watts or less).

The current 3 licenses and privileges are the
result of piecepart change over time and the result has
some less than logical consequences regarding
privileges and entrance level testing when compared
to the Novice tests which we had for almost 50
years. YMMV.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK


Needs a top-down review, starting with "basis and purpose." Don't
build in merit badge-like license classes to make certain segments of
society feel good. Three license classes would probably be one more
than needed.


Dee Flint December 8th 05 12:17 AM

Easier licensing
 

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
. net...

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
. ..


[snip]

Well I would propose dropping the Tech altogether and upping the General
written to 50 question test once the code is dropped. The difference in
technical material is not great and it's not that hard to memorize the
difference in privileges.


Sounds reasonable to me. My ultimate view/perspective...
we need a tiered license structure that makes sense.

Once the code is dropped, in the classes that I teach, I will combine the
material and encourage all the students to go straight to General. There
really won't be a need for an introductory license.


But they'll still need to approach the testing on a two element
basis.


Agreed. Just like when I got my Tech+ (called Tech with HF then) in 1992.
I had to take all the elements involved (i.e. code and two writtens) but I
went straight to the Tech+ and never held a Novice.

For now, people will still have to take two writtens to get to General after
the code is dropped but I can see the possibility of an eventual two license
system (General and Extra).

My question to you...
should there be a true introductory license to bring
new hams, especially youth, to ham radio along the lines
of the previous Novice. THE only reason (IMHO)
that Novice ceased to be the entry level exam
was because Novice didn't get folks the majority of
repeater operation which is now a mainstay of
ham radio.


No I don't think an introductory license is needed anymore. The material
for the General written is well within the grasp of young people to learn
and comprehend. It's really no more difficult than what they are supposed
to be learning in school. It is merely different.

Going straight to General will result in the candidate having a wide range
of privileges available at both VHFand up and at HF and down. This will be
more meaningful and (in my opinion) more successful than some scaled down
introductory license.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




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