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Reasonable and unique, was One Class of Amateur Radio License?
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote: From: Dee Flint on Dec 15, 3:21 pm "Bill Sohl" wrote in message Actually the place that I see the difference in operating skills is on the VHF bands in the VHF contests. When I review my contacts in those contests, the large majority of them are Extra class operators. They seem to be the ones to have the skill necessary to put together and operate a station suitable to make long distance VHF contacts and the skill to do so. Wow! Someone should have TOLD the U.S. Army Signal Corps folks at Evans Signal Laboratory in 1946 when they were the first to bounce a radio signal off the moon! How much power was used by the Army? The transmitter used was a modified SCR-271 radar unit. It produced 3000 W on 111.5 Mc. (that's what the Signal Corps called them back then). Pair of 6C21 triodes in the output - they look similar to 1000Ts. 3000 W output with those tubes at that frequency means about 5000 W input. The amateur power limit back then was 1000 W input. How large was the antenna? 64 dipoles in front of a plane reflector. At least 24 dB gain over isotropic. There's a lot more info at: http://www.campevans.com/diana.html btw, it was a moon RADAR experiment, not a communications system. The mode used was OOK CW. The echoes were heard as beeps. Had there been a second station, communication could have been done by Morse Code. But no Morse Code was used because no communication was done. There was no second station to communicate with. Those Diana folks had a some hams involved, though - all code tested at at least 13 wpm: Lt. Col John H. DeWitt, officer-in-charge, W4ERI, ex-W4FU E.K. Stodola, head of the lab's Research Section, W3IVF F. Elacker, Mechanical Engineer, ex-W2DMD H.P.Kaufmann, W2OQU was also involved at a high level. Those are just the hams I know of that were involved. There were probably more. Note that a good number of the top people were radio amateurs. They used power levels 9 dB above those permitted to amateurs at the time, and an antenna that was quite beyond "backyard construction". They had lots of resources. Lt. Col. DeWitt, W4ERI, was the driving force behind the whole idea, which he first began working on in 1940. Hams are now doing moonbounce wherein one of the stations is using a modest 50 MHz yagi and 100w or so. A few years back, a couple of hams (both code-tested, at least one an Extra) did microwave EME with less than 100 W and dishes less than 10 feet in diameter - at both ends. Using their own resources. Yeah, they should have told the Signal Corps "how to do it" in Korea in the 1950s when they set out all that VHF radio relay equipment in the hills and valleys there. Where WAS the ARRL when all that was going on? They didn't tell the Signal Corps much of anything... Where Worked All States? During WWII, the Signal Corps used the ARRL Handbook, Leonard. I'll bet that chafes you to no end. The ARRL actually produced a special "Defense Edition" Handbook for training purposes. There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam". 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Reasonable and unique, was One Class of Amateur Radio License?
wrote: Dave Heil wrote: wrote: From: Dee Flint on Dec 15, 3:21 pm "Bill Sohl" wrote in message Actually the place that I see the difference in operating skills is on the VHF bands in the VHF contests. When I review my contacts in those contests, the large majority of them are Extra class operators. They seem to be the ones to have the skill necessary to put together and operate a station suitable to make long distance VHF contacts and the skill to do so. Wow! Someone should have TOLD the U.S. Army Signal Corps folks at Evans Signal Laboratory in 1946 when they were the first to bounce a radio signal off the moon! How much power was used by the Army? The transmitter used was a modified SCR-271 radar unit. It produced 3000 W on 111.5 Mc. (that's what the Signal Corps called them back then). Pair of 6C21 triodes in the output - they look similar to 1000Ts. 3000 W output with those tubes at that frequency means about 5000 W input. The amateur power limit back then was 1000 W input. Was RADAR a legal mode? What was the PRF? How large was the antenna? 64 dipoles in front of a plane reflector. At least 24 dB gain over isotropic. There's a lot more info at: http://www.campevans.com/diana.html btw, it was a moon RADAR experiment, not a communications system. The mode used was OOK CW. The echoes were heard as beeps. Had there been a second station, communication could have been done by Morse Code. But no Morse Code was used because no communication was done. There was no second station to communicate with. Those Diana folks had a some hams involved, though - all code tested at at least 13 wpm: Conditionals or FCC tested? Lt. Col John H. DeWitt, officer-in-charge, W4ERI, ex-W4FU FU suffix, huh? I'm suprised the fCC let that one through. E.K. Stodola, head of the lab's Research Section, W3IVF F. Elacker, Mechanical Engineer, ex-W2DMD H.P.Kaufmann, W2OQU was also involved at a high level. Those are just the hams I know of that were involved. There were probably more. There always are. Note that a good number of the top people were radio amateurs. They used power levels 9 dB above those permitted to amateurs at the time, and an antenna that was quite beyond "backyard construction". They had lots of resources. A fantastic use of post-war resources. Lt. Col. DeWitt, W4ERI, was the driving force behind the whole idea, which he first began working on in 1940. What idea? To bounce a signal off of the moon for no communications purpose? Isn't that like bouncing a basketball off of a backboard with no intention of making a basket? Hams are now doing moonbounce wherein one of the stations is using a modest 50 MHz yagi and 100w or so. A few years back, a couple of hams (both code-tested, at least one an Extra) did microwave EME with less than 100 W and dishes less than 10 feet in diameter - at both ends. Using their own resources. Go Hams! Yeah, they should have told the Signal Corps "how to do it" in Korea in the 1950s when they set out all that VHF radio relay equipment in the hills and valleys there. Where WAS the ARRL when all that was going on? They didn't tell the Signal Corps much of anything... Where Worked All States? During WWII, the Signal Corps used the ARRL Handbook, Leonard. I'll bet that chafes you to no end. The ARRL actually produced a special "Defense Edition" Handbook for training purposes. There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam". 73 de Jim, N2EY A KG6, no doubt. BTW, I saw KG6DX listed in the CQWW. |
Reasonable and unique, was One Class of Amateur Radio License?
wrote in message oups.com... [snip] There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam". 73 de Jim, N2EY Where can I read that story? Or perhaps you could summarize here? Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Reasonable and unique, was One Class of Amateur Radio License?
wrote: Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: wrote in message ups.com... wrote: wrote: wrote: wrote: wrote: From: on Dec 7, 5:28 pm wrote: From: Bill Sohl on Dec 6, 6:11 am wrote in message [snip] Is that why the FCC gives ALL power priveleges to their ENTRY LEVEL LICENSEES? Entry level licensees do NOT have all power privileges. Technicians with code are an entry level license. On HF frequencies, they are limited to 200 watts output. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE And 200 watts on VHF/UHF??? Hello, Dee? |
Reasonable and unique, was One Class of Amateur Radio License?
wrote There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam". The "Ghost of Guam" was US Navy Radioman 1st Class George Tweed. He wasn't a ham. Was reputed to be laid up drunk in a house of horizontal refreshment when the Navy evacuated the island just ahead of the WW-II JA invasion so he missed his ride. Had to hide out in the jungle for a few years until the USN came back. In the book/movie "No Man is an Island" he comes off as a hero, but was in fact not popular with the locals, several of whom (including a native RC Priest) lost their lives for not revealing his whereabouts. After the war he skedaddled without so much as a thank-you. 73, de Hans, K0HB |
Reasonable and unique, was One Class of Amateur Radio License?
wrote:
Dave Heil wrote: wrote: From: on Thurs, Dec 15 2005 4:14 am wrote: From: on Dec 13, 7:32 pm wrote: wrote: wrote: wrote: wrote: wrote: From: on Dec 7, 5:28 pm wrote: From: Bill Sohl on Dec 6, 6:11 am wrote in message The starting path under discussion was the path to an amateur radio license. You haven't taken the first step on that path. "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"...some ancient Chinese proverb, I suppose. Lao Tzu. Any relation to Zack Lao? I found some Chinese proverbs which seem quite fitting to your role he "A crane is too obvious when it stands among a flock of chickens and looks very awkward. It is also true with a camel amidst a flock of sheep and a flea when it stands on top of a hairless head. They all carry a pejoritary tone: the thing that outstands others is something awkward if not necessarily bad." You are the crane, the camel or the flea. You are the chicken, the sheep or the hairless head? Thought you'd never ask! Amateur radio is the chicken, the sheep or the hairless head. "There is an argument between a bird who stopped to drank at a well and a frog therein. They were arguing about how the sky looked like. Regarding where they were, they each had a different view. The frog's vision was of course very limited. Therefore, this proverb refers to somebody who has a very narrow-minded and insulated view of what they see or what they think." You are the frog. The frog gives the bird. ....his view of the sky and the bird just grins 'cuz he knows that the sky is much larger. I obtained a COMMERCIAL radio operator license 49 years ago. First Class, one test, no repeats necessary. Yeah? So? One exam to run a 100,000 watt transmitter? What would Jim say? Limited privileges. WHY was it "required" that I obtain an amateur license? Who ever told you that it was? It isn't, but the way you and Jim needle Len about getting one... ....is unrelated to the fact. Was it necessary to punish amateurs? Who was "punished"? You tell us. You are the one into the dominatrix role. No, *you* need to tell us. You wrote of amateur radio ops being punished over incentive licensing. Back up your claim. I asked about amateurs being punished. Jim said he lost privileges. He was no longer in the privileged class. It effected me directly. I was not punished in any way. but you find a way to personalize it. The rules changes of 1968 and 1969 affected me at the time. They affected everyone after you as well. They did not affect you and they did not affect Len. You're simply wrong on that one, Quitefine. Lots of us radio pros without amateur licenses just didn't bother to get an amateur license...not necessarily as a result of "changes of 1968 or 1969." That's fine, Len. Nobody says you have to get ana amateur radio license. "Ana amateur radio license?" Ah, but YOU already said I had some kind of moral imperative to get an amateur radio license. Hypocrite. No one has told you anything of the kind. That's another of your factual errors. Then we will hear no more from you and Jim about Len not having one, right? I wouldn't bank on it. But it does seem a bit odd that you're expending so much time and energy on the requirements for a license you aren't going to get... "Not going to get?" Who said that...besides YOU? Why, *you* said it. Why did he say it? Why not ask him? I'm just wanting the morse code test for an amateur radio license eliminated. That's at least the third version you've told here. Previously, you've waffled between the other two--that you were going to get the "Extra right out of the box or that you weren't going to obtain an amateur radio license. Can't a person want more than one thing? Is Dave putting limits on what people can want? He could have gotten away with it until recently. It is difficult to talk out of three sides of your mouth, so that's going to slow him up. Why are YOU "spending so much time and energy" trying to throw **** on all of those desiring that test element 1 deletion? Doing what? That voodoo that you do. Len certainly never gets more than he has delivered and he receives far less that he has earned. What are you afraid of? Loss of your personal status, title, and privileges? What are you afraid of, Len? That radio amateurs won't show you the respect which you feel is your due? That has certainly been the case on rrap. That Len feels that he is owed some respect for his past military radio days or his professional radio work? Life is tough all over. That you won't get into amateur radio before you're past your expiration date? Len has an expiration date? What is it? We may or may not ever know. If his postings stop suddenly, that may be a clue. What the heck, I'd already started 15 and 14 years before in HF comms where the operating environment was a HELLUVA LOT TOUGHER on all concerned than any amateur activity. How was it "a HELLUVA LOT TOUGHER", Len? I saw your "My 3 Years" thing. The amateur radio service does not require its licensees to wage war and kill the enemy. Did you wage war or kill an enemy? He put himself in the pool of combattants. After that he followed orders. "Combatants" He put himself in the pool? Do you write for the DNC? I did didn't ask anything about whether he put himself in a pool. The military "field days" were not little outings in a park once a year. Did you ever participate in a military "field day"? He put himself in the pool of combattants. After that he followed orders. "Combatants" I didn't ask anything about putting himself in a pool. Actually he put himself into the U.S. Army, some members of which were combatants. Amateur radio doesn't operate in an environment of high explosive ordinance going off nearby. Did you operate in an environment of high explosive ordinance going off nearby? He put himself in the pool of combattants. After that he followed orders. "Combatants" I don't believe that Len was ever a combatant. He was a soldier. What did Jim do? Did he excuse himelf? Was he unfit to serve? Why are you asking me? And why all the comparisons? You seem to feel a need to prove that you had it "TOUGHER" than anybody else..... To use a quaint and traditional military phrase, "****in-A!" Then I suppose you're disappointed that you're efforts toward proving it have fallen a little short. One hundred seventy five miles uphill both ways to the FCC examiners office. In the snow. All civilians went to the FCC examiners to be tested? Really? Yes, sweetums, I - and every other military person - had it TOUGHER than you civilians safe at home. Really? How tough was the rear area life in Japan, Len? I don't recall my military service as having been very TOUGH. Must have been why you got out so quickly. I gave four years of my life. Is that enough to suit you? Is it okay that I moved on to other things that I wanted to do? Problem is, Jimmie doesn't think that others can think differently so he doesn't think about the thousands of newcomers who MIGHT want to get into amateur radio. Len, I don't have any problem thinking others can think differently. That doesn't mean I must agree with them. Then why does your lofty highness insist all MUST agree with YOUR opinions? What's with your schtick here, Leonard? Your posts seem to indicate that you believe that all MUST agree with YOUR opinions. It would be nice that once someone rejects an opinion that they say why. Those have been provided often. Haven't you been reading along? Saying that Len doesn't hold an amateur license is not a good reason to reject Len's opinions wrt the ARS. Len has no background or experience to make him a credible source of what is good or bad for amateur radio. If I'm looking for information on sailing, I don't seek it from a guy who has some friends who own sailboats. There's no specification for a lot of things in Part 97, yet there's no problem. Yes there is. License test regulations REQUIRE a code test for any class having below-30-MHz operation privileges...BUT...the FCC does not mandate all amateur USING morse code modes over and above any other mode. All are optional. Well now! Yessir, that presents a real dilemma, doesn't it. You should be able to suck it up. After all, your military service was way TOUGHER than this easy civilian stuff. The regulations don't even define Morse Code let alone Farnsworth Code, but the FCC can deny a license based upon an exam it can't define. See, Brian, civilian life can be tough indeed. The Army told Len what it wanted, how it wanted it done and how long it expected him to work at it each day. It told him where and when to show up for meals and showed him where his bed was. There was nobody shooting at him. I suppose he could have suffered a hangnail or he could have spilled hot coffee in his lap. Yet this grizzled veteran has told us all about his irrelevant (to amateur radio) stories of his "big time" radio work in the military on countless occasions. Sorry, I liked K0HB's story of SUQ a lot better. It entertains and it doesn't rankle. There's been two whole years of 18 Petitions commented on at length since the end of WRC-03 and now NPRM 05-143 which can settle the morse code testing for a license issue. Probably. But you won't be satisfied with that, despite your frequent claims of only wanting to eliminate the Morse Code test. Jimmie Noserve, GIVE UP trying to tell me "what I will do." You don't have the authority nor the qualifications to be ME nor judgemental on "what I will do." We can only go by what you've written, Len. You've written that you contacted out of band Frenchmen on 6m. I surely did write that. I've never written that I was out of band working French or any other stations anywhere, any time. Why can't Technicians operate on 14.026? Why can't hams operate on 13.976? And there you go with the ultimatums and strawmen. Jimmie with newsgroup wordplay again. About this point, Hans will jump in saying you are "simply mistaken" and babbling about how the "IARU and ITU" are different or other semi-sweet non-sequitur. Can't answer the questions, eh? Jimmie, you present NO valid questions. Ergo, no valid answers required. The questions were valid enough. You just didn't answer them. Why don't you answer them, Dave? I'll wait for Len's answers. You constantly bring up much older history ("My 3 Years") that doesn't apply to anything NOW.... Tsk, tsk, tsk, that's an entirely different "discussion" concerning overt LYING of military service by Dudly the Imposter (aka "K4YZ"). Your tales precede your manufacturer of the term "Dudly the Imposter" by quite some time. "manufacture" Thank you. I brought up a VALID example some years ago on why the majority of military communications worldwide was NOT done by morse code mode since 1948...for the reason being that I was assigned at a major Army communications station serving a theater command Hq and stayed there for three years. YOU have NEVER done anything approaching that. In fact, YOU have NEVER served in any military service of the USA. Naturally you would be upset about anyone else doing something big and important in HF communications. TS. That's funny. Jim knows what I've done in professional communications and I've seen no indication that he has ever become upset over it. Then again, I've never made it seem that what I did professionally carried any weight in amateur radio. Your "career" was your DXpedition meal ticket. Why, so it was. I still found it necessary to do the assigned work. Do you have a problem with how I used my free time? For example, I think the ARRL made a big mistake not letting WK3C run for Director of the Atlantic Division. That's *my* division, btw... Is your Division mobilized and ready to ship out to fight the War on Terror? Bon voyage. Maybe they can just show up on r.r.a.p, read your posts and begin waging the War on Error. Steve's gonna hate a bunch of usurpers showing up here. No way he's gonna let them edge him out. And so the war escalates. Do you mean that the error team will just busy itself with intended and unintended mistakes? The change of zoning near your house did not remove any privileges from you, did it, Len? It didn't make your taxes go up or require you to change your house in any way, right? Irrelevant to RADIO REGULATIONS. Local zoning laws have NOTHING to do with federal radio regulations. Give it up. Did you miss seeing the parallel to your actions in regard to amateur radio? It was quite evident. Amateur radio regulations are a subset of "RADIO REGULATIONS." Wow! That point nearly hit you in the noggin as it zoomed right over you. Or someone who tells a US Navy veteran to shove something up his I/O port? One military veteran can tell another military veteran lots of things. Brakob, Burke, and myself are all military veterans. YOU have NEVER been an military veteran. I'm a military veteran. You've told me lots of things. I take offense to some of them. Ditto. Len's been pulling the same thing with you? Here's a quaint old military phrase given in the tradition and sincerity of the military service: "Go **** yourself!" That will take care of Saturday night for you... You certainly write like a fellow who has lost an argument. Maybe if he refreshes the screen... ....or if he regains his composure. Dave K8MN |
Reasonable and unique, was One Class of Amateur Radio License?
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... [snip] There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam". 73 de Jim, N2EY Where can I read that story? Or perhaps you could summarize here? Dee D. Flint, N8UZE W/O George Tweed, USN, RM1c. Also KB6GJX. He was left behind on Guam and eluded capture by the Japanese for 31 months, until the island was retaken by American forces. He was aided and kept from capture by the efforts of the Chamoru (Guamanians), who hid him, kept him supplied, and would not give him up despite large rewards offered by the Japanese occupiers. The Japanese tortured and executed many Chamoru inhabitants, including a Roman Catholic priest, on the suspicion that they had information on Tweed. But the they never gave Tweed up. One version of the story may be read and seen in the book and film "No Man Is An Island". I have read that Tweed is not fondly remembered on Guam. Postwar accounts tended to portray him as a lone heroic figure, and to downplay or even ignore the terrible price paid by those who helped him. The radio connection to all this is that while Tweed was hiding from the Japanese, he built and operated several receivers, and was able to give the Chamoru accurate war news. He even wrote a small newspaper to circulate the news. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Reasonable and unique, was One Class of Amateur Radio License?
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Reasonable and unique, was One Class of Amateur Radio License?
"KØHB" wrote in message ink.net... wrote There's also the story of "The Ghost of Guam". The "Ghost of Guam" was US Navy Radioman 1st Class George Tweed. He wasn't a ham. Was reputed to be laid up drunk in a house of horizontal refreshment when the Navy evacuated the island just ahead of the WW-II JA invasion so he missed his ride. Had to hide out in the jungle for a few years until the USN came back. In the book/movie "No Man is an Island" he comes off as a hero, but was in fact not popular with the locals, several of whom (including a native RC Priest) lost their lives for not revealing his whereabouts. After the war he skedaddled without so much as a thank-you. 73, de Hans, K0HB He was at the Legion Christmas party and personally thanked you and everyone else. |
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