Subject: Inside a surge protector
From: HFguy
Date: 11/30/2003 4:39 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

w_tom wrote:

Only the naive would believe one needs $thousands to install
an earthing system. And yet that is what Clifton would have
us believe.

If a surge protector fails, then it was clearly undersized
for the task. Surge protectors should be so effective that
one never knows it did its job - in direct contradiction to
what Clifton posts. The most critical component in surge
protection is earthing. Direct lightning strike without
damage is routine. Clifton would even deny this. A surge
protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth
ground means no effective surge protection. Clifton has some
wild idea that sacrificial MOVs will provide the protection -
which is why he insults rather than post a single technical
number. Instead Clifton would have us believe that lightning
would vaporize a 10 inch diameter steel rod - without even a
single numerical fact.

Hey w-tom,

Why are you obsessed with posting countless diatribes on the subject of
surge protectors on dozens of newsgroups? Are you a shill for the whole
house surge protector industry?


That, or he has a whole lot of time on his hands.


Les Locklear
Gulfport, Ms.

Hey HFguy,
Why are you obsessed with promoting a scam? For that matter,
why do you post so often in this newsgroup?

If what was posted is technically erroneous, then please
feel free to discuss technical errors. Please demonstrate how
a plug-in protector can protect from both common mode and
differential mode transients. This assumes you reply also
knowing what common and differential mode transients are.
Technical concepts taught in a first year electrical course
and essential to understanding if and why a surge protector is
effective.

Demonstrated from manufacturer datasheets is that MOVs self
destruct when grossly undersized; when operating beyond
specifications. Posted previously was specifications for a 39
joule MOV - that would protect as long as a transient current
was under 4500 amps. Excessive currents could vaporize
(explode) a grossly undersized MOV. Posted previously was the
exponential relationship between joules and MOV life
expectancy. MOVs, properly installed, can protect from tens
or hundreds of transients without exploding. MOVs, properly
installed, degrade (do not explode) as demonstrated by chart
at:
http://www.worldproducts.com/MOVPeakPulse.htm

Why would anyone recommend a grossly overpriced surge
protector that explode rather than provide effective
protection? Why would anyone recommend spending tens of times
more money per protected appliance for a surge protector that
is also grossly undersized? Simple foolishness.

It would be improper to let those technical lies go
unchallenged. Any surge protector that is suppose to explode-
to provide sacrificial protection - is simply ineffective.
But then that is obvious. It has no dedicated connection to
earth ground AND it avoids all discussion about earthing. A
surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground -
which others also forget to mention. But when selling
ineffective surge protectors, then undersize so that the
technically deceived will recommend this overpriced and
ineffective product. How to increase sales? Undersize it so
that it explodes - the A Team solution. And avoid all mention
of earthing. How ineffective protector manufacturers promote
their myths at excessive profit.

Exposed in this thread are those myths and the deceived who
would promote those myths.


HFguy wrote:
Hey w-tom,

Why are you obsessed with posting countless diatribes on the
subject of surge protectors on dozens of newsgroups? Are you a
shill for the whole house surge protector industry?

Low pressure inert gas devices were the original surge
protectors. Like most shunt mode protector devices, they
remain as an open circuit until a transient voltage becomes
too high. Then like MOVs, they become short circuits to shunt
that transient to earth.

As noted previously, these principles of protection were
well understood and routinely installed in the 1930s. Back
then, a surge protector was typically a low pressure, inert
gas discharge tube (GDT) similar to an NE-2 neon glow lamp
(often still found inside lighted switches). In fact, some
radios used NE-2 on the antenna to protect RF amplifier
transistors.

Unfortunately Gas Discharge Tubes (GDTs) degrade quickly
with each use. Anode would vaporize into the gas, causing
threshold voltage to rise with each use. IOW like MOVs, they
degraded; but even faster.

By the 1970s, MOVs (or equivalent) were replacing GDTs.
Most every home had something equivalent provided free by the
telco:
http://www.inwap.com/inwap/chez/Phoneline.jpg

This Western Electric device was different from MOVs in
that, like GDTs, they were low capacitance devices. Two
cylinder cartridges called 'the carbons' were underneath
those hex bolts heads and could be replaced.

Today, telcos have long since obsoleted the carbons with a
semiconductor device. Both GDTs and 'the carbons' would
degrade without the human knowledge. Semiconductors either
work properly everytime or become short circuits. Either they
work or report their failure by shorting out the phone line.
Therefore GDTs have been obsoleted twice over.

For AC electric, a semiconductor type of 'whole house'
protector is available - albeit more expensive. The best
'whole house' (AC electric) protector for the buck uses MOVs
since destructive surges are so infrequent and MOVs (properly
sized) have such long life expectancy.

GDTs, in the meantime, are still used in special
applications such as commercial radio facilities. But even
electric utilities today use MOVs for substation protection.

GDTs, MOVs, or semiconductor protectors - all are only as
effective as the central earth ground. That essential
earthing principle, demonstrated by Franklin in 1752 and
widely installed in the 1930s, has not changed. No what what
the technology, a surge protector was only as effective as its
earth ground.

Barry OGrady wrote:
What about gas arrestors?

-Barry

w_tom wrote:

Name of manufacturer and model number? Where were the
important leads to earth ground. It only had two leads?

Rather surprised so little knowledge here about how
effective protection has long been installed.



Manufacturer: Sycom
Model: SYC-120/240TC
150,000amp surge current capacity.

The wire to ground was a given, so I didn't mention it.




mike

--
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /
/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /
/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/

..let the cat out to reply..

That protector does claim to be a 'whole house' protector,
but also makes claims that imply 50,000 amps of that claimed
150,000 amps really provides the protection. Again, specs or
even a wiring diagram, is so unavailable making it difficult
to say what this SYC-120/240TC surge protector really does:
http://www.lightningrodparts.com/surge.html

Basically, it appears to be 'whole house' protector. But is
also says, for example, that an indicator lamp can detect a
missing ground. Wrong. It cannot possibly detect a missing
'earth' ground - the critically essential ground. It could
detect a missing safety ground connection - which is not
relevant to surge protection. And so they forget to mention
which ground. That makes me suspicious even though I suspect
it is an effective 'whole house' protector.

Also missing is its joules ratings - another reason to be
suspicious.

In that cited URL is another protector that says
Keep the wires as short as possible and avoid sharp bends and kinks.

Wire routing that is very important for effective surge
protection - and that ineffective protector would rather not
discuss. But this telephone protector also does not say which
ground. Not any ground is effective protection. For example
grounding to dirt inside a flower box is not effective surge
protection. But it too can be an electrical ground - but not
earth ground.

This is fundamental. A surge protector is only as effective
as its earth ground. Not any ground. Single point earth
ground. No earth ground means no effective protection.
Benchmarks in surge protection make that point often,
repeatedly, and obnoxiously - because it is that essential to
selling effective surge protectors. Plug-in surge protectors
and UPSes do not appear on the list of effective protectors.
Why? Their "ground" is not central earth ground. No earth
ground means no effective protection.

m II wrote:
Manufacturer: Sycom
Model: SYC-120/240TC
150,000amp surge current capacity.

The wire to ground was a given, so I didn't mention it.

More crap from the electric troll.
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
That protector does claim to be a 'whole house' protector,
but also makes claims that imply 50,000 amps of that claimed
150,000 amps really provides the protection. Again, specs or
even a wiring diagram, is so unavailable making it difficult
to say what this SYC-120/240TC surge protector really does:
http://www.lightningrodparts.com/surge.html

Basically, it appears to be 'whole house' protector. But is
also says, for example, that an indicator lamp can detect a
missing ground. Wrong. It cannot possibly detect a missing
'earth' ground - the critically essential ground. It could
detect a missing safety ground connection - which is not
relevant to surge protection. And so they forget to mention
which ground. That makes me suspicious even though I suspect
it is an effective 'whole house' protector.

Also missing is its joules ratings - another reason to be
suspicious.

In that cited URL is another protector that says
Keep the wires as short as possible and avoid sharp bends and kinks.

Wire routing that is very important for effective surge
protection - and that ineffective protector would rather not
discuss. But this telephone protector also does not say which
ground. Not any ground is effective protection. For example
grounding to dirt inside a flower box is not effective surge
protection. But it too can be an electrical ground - but not
earth ground.

This is fundamental. A surge protector is only as effective
as its earth ground. Not any ground. Single point earth
ground. No earth ground means no effective protection.
Benchmarks in surge protection make that point often,
repeatedly, and obnoxiously - because it is that essential to
selling effective surge protectors. Plug-in surge protectors
and UPSes do not appear on the list of effective protectors.
Why? Their "ground" is not central earth ground. No earth
ground means no effective protection.

m II wrote:
Manufacturer: Sycom
Model: SYC-120/240TC
150,000amp surge current capacity.

The wire to ground was a given, so I didn't mention it.

w_tom wrote:

Wire routing that is very important for effective surge
protection - and that ineffective protector would rather not
discuss. But this telephone protector also does not say which
ground. Not any ground is effective protection. For example
grounding to dirt inside a flower box is not effective surge
protection. But it too can be an electrical ground - but not
earth ground.

This is fundamental. A surge protector is only as effective
as its earth ground. Not any ground. Single point earth
ground. No earth ground means no effective protection.
Benchmarks in surge protection make that point often,
repeatedly, and obnoxiously - because it is that essential to
selling effective surge protectors. Plug-in surge protectors
and UPSes do not appear on the list of effective protectors.
Why? Their "ground" is not central earth ground. No earth
ground means no effective protection.


In any electrical code that I'm aware of, ground *means* earth ground.
In this neck of the woods it is defined as:

A connection to earth using a grounding electrode.

I don't know what other kinds of 'any ground' can possibly be.
It's either a ground or it isn't.


mike
--
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /
/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /
/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/

..let the cat out to reply..

The safety ground is typically a bus bar in main disconnect
box. The central point at which neutral and safety ground
wires meet. This is a ground different from the earthing
rod, which is different from a receptacle safety ground, which
is different from the computer chassis ground, which is
different from motherboard ground, which is different from the
entertainment system single point ground to eliminate hum
between various stereo components. All may be interconnected
- but not by a perfect conductor. And all serve different
functions. Therefore all are considered different grounds.

Take a 50 foot connection from breaker box to receptacle
using a 20 amp wire. That safety ground wire may be 0.2 ohms
'resistance'. However to transients, the same wire may
measure 130 ohms 'impedance'. If trying to earth a trivial
100 amp transient, then the wire would be something less than
13,000 volts from plug-in surge protector to breaker box
ground bus. Clearly wire impedance makes that receptacle
ground all but no connection to earth. Earth ground and
safety ground in that wall receptacle are not same.

Therein also lies reason for a single point ground between
stereo components and why breaker box ground is not same as
earth ground. Wire has electrical characteristics that make
each interconnected ground different. Wire becomes an
electronic component when discussing transient protection.

For human safety, the single point ground of significance is
inside a breaker box. To eliminate hums in stereo equipment,
the single point ground is where all component grounds meet.
To protect computer motherboard from static shock
interruptions, a motherboard ground connects to chassis
ground at only one point. To discharge a static electric
charged human is a ground located underneath the shoe (no
earth ground involved in that static electric discharge). So
that various signals don't interfere, then A/D converters have
separate analog and digital grounds - that meet at a single
point typically at the A/D converter. For surge protection,
the single point ground of significance is central earth
ground. Many grounds. All different even if interconnected.

Again, every ground may be interconnected but each ground is
different because wire is an electronic component. Distance
also determines quality of that earthing - because again, wire
is an electronic component. Plug-in protectors do not 'shunt'
a less than 10 foot connection from each incoming power wire
to earth ground. Therefore they cannot earth that incoming
wire. Distance in that 50 foot wire at 130 ohms impedance
demonstrates why, for example, wall receptacles are not earth
ground.

m II wrote:
In any electrical code that I'm aware of, ground *means* earth ground.
In this neck of the woods it is defined as:

A connection to earth using a grounding electrode.

I don't know what other kinds of 'any ground' can possibly be.
It's either a ground or it isn't.

mike

Another meaningless message from the electric troll. Plonk.
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
The safety ground is typically a bus bar in main disconnect
box. The central point at which neutral and safety ground
wires meet. This is a ground different from the earthing
rod, which is different from a receptacle safety ground, which
is different from the computer chassis ground, which is
different from motherboard ground, which is different from the
entertainment system single point ground to eliminate hum
between various stereo components. All may be interconnected
- but not by a perfect conductor. And all serve different
functions. Therefore all are considered different grounds.

Take a 50 foot connection from breaker box to receptacle
using a 20 amp wire. That safety ground wire may be 0.2 ohms
'resistance'. However to transients, the same wire may
measure 130 ohms 'impedance'. If trying to earth a trivial
100 amp transient, then the wire would be something less than
13,000 volts from plug-in surge protector to breaker box
ground bus. Clearly wire impedance makes that receptacle
ground all but no connection to earth. Earth ground and
safety ground in that wall receptacle are not same.

Therein also lies reason for a single point ground between
stereo components and why breaker box ground is not same as
earth ground. Wire has electrical characteristics that make
each interconnected ground different. Wire becomes an
electronic component when discussing transient protection.

For human safety, the single point ground of significance is
inside a breaker box. To eliminate hums in stereo equipment,
the single point ground is where all component grounds meet.
To protect computer motherboard from static shock
interruptions, a motherboard ground connects to chassis
ground at only one point. To discharge a static electric
charged human is a ground located underneath the shoe (no
earth ground involved in that static electric discharge). So
that various signals don't interfere, then A/D converters have
separate analog and digital grounds - that meet at a single
point typically at the A/D converter. For surge protection,
the single point ground of significance is central earth
ground. Many grounds. All different even if interconnected.

Again, every ground may be interconnected but each ground is
different because wire is an electronic component. Distance
also determines quality of that earthing - because again, wire
is an electronic component. Plug-in protectors do not 'shunt'
a less than 10 foot connection from each incoming power wire
to earth ground. Therefore they cannot earth that incoming
wire. Distance in that 50 foot wire at 130 ohms impedance
demonstrates why, for example, wall receptacles are not earth
ground.

m II wrote:
In any electrical code that I'm aware of, ground *means* earth ground.
In this neck of the woods it is defined as:

A connection to earth using a grounding electrode.

I don't know what other kinds of 'any ground' can possibly be.
It's either a ground or it isn't.

mike

Barry: That used to be known as the MEN system, as in multiple earth
neutral.
In this PC world it had to be changed to PERSON, as in place earth return strap
on neutral.

Oh my Deity! That's a good one!

Bill, K5BY