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"helmsman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:57:56 GMT, (King Pineapple)
wrote:

Why are we paying so much at the pump when there is no shortage of oil?


Speculators!
The BIGGEST problem the U.S.A. has is not having enough refineries.
In other words the ECO FREAKS!
The Saudi's are willing to finance the building of 2 refineries in the
U.S.A.
Unfortunately I don't think oil companies will allow it to happen.

The real cure is Hydrogen and we are very very close, and not just to turn
oil back into
lubricating grease, it can also run electrical power plants.
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1403/segments/1403-3.htm
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/scien...gen_10-20.html

I agree that hydrogen would be a great way to get off the oil bandwagon as
far as a fuel for our transportation needs. However, I don't think it's
really applicable as a source for electric power plants. The reason being
that to get the massive amounts of hydrogen for fuel, it will have to be
electrolyzed out of water. This takes large amounts of electricity. The law
of conservation of energy says that we can't get more energy out of
something than is put into it.

"Brenda Ann Dyer" wrote in message
...
|
| "helmsman" wrote in message
| ...
| On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:57:56 GMT, (King Pineapple)
| wrote:
|
| Why are we paying so much at the pump when there is no shortage of oil?
|
|
| Speculators!
| The BIGGEST problem the U.S.A. has is not having enough refineries.
| In other words the ECO FREAKS!
| The Saudi's are willing to finance the building of 2 refineries in the
| U.S.A.
| Unfortunately I don't think oil companies will allow it to happen.
|
| The real cure is Hydrogen and we are very very close, and not just to
turn
| oil back into
| lubricating grease, it can also run electrical power plants.
| http://www.pbs.org/saf/1403/segments/1403-3.htm
| http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/scien...gen_10-20.html
|
| I agree that hydrogen would be a great way to get off the oil bandwagon as
| far as a fuel for our transportation needs. However, I don't think it's
| really applicable as a source for electric power plants. The reason being
| that to get the massive amounts of hydrogen for fuel, it will have to be
| electrolyzed out of water. This takes large amounts of electricity. The
law
| of conservation of energy says that we can't get more energy out of
| something than is put into it.

Ethanol, then.

Or vegetable oil.

Hell, Saint Paul has a wood - burning power plant, believe it or not!

I believe Sarpy County, Nebraska now has a "garbage gas" plant.

Come to think of it, methane can be easily produced from human waste.


All of the above are totally renewable and based on current technology.

My current car is a gas - sipper. I am thinking the next one will either be
hybrid or perhaps an E85 (85% Ethanol) vehicle.

73,



--
Steve Lawrence
KAØPMD
Burnsville, Minnesota

(NOTE: My email address has only one "dot."
You'll have to edit out the one between the "7"
and the "3" in my email address if you wish to
reply via email)

The real cure is Hydrogen

Providing electricity used to make it is generated by a source using renewable
energy.

It takes 4 to 10 times as much energy to make hydrogen than the resulting
hydrogen provides.

Ethanol has the same negative efficiency problem.

For the long term, only nuclear powered electricity generating plants will
provide most of the necessary energy for direct and (hydrogen making) indirect
uses.

Bill, K5BY

"helmsman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 May 2004 08:38:18 +0900, "Brenda Ann Dyer"
wrote:


Please take the time to read this-I watched it and it blew my socks off.
All that is needed is the will.
Scientific American Frontiers (Alan Alda in)

http://www.pbs.org/saf/1403/segments/1403-3.htm

[snip]


At the Challenge Bibendum, Stanford and Iris Ovshinsky tell Alan they have
a solution to
the storage problem--storing hydrogen as a solid.

A decade ago, Stan invented the nickel metal hydride rechargeable battery
used today in
everything from computers to the Toyota Prius. Today, he and Iris show
Alan an example of
their new hydrogen storage device, a proprietary metal alloy that soaks up
hydrogen gas
like a sponge. They claim that the solid can store twice as much hydrogen
as a typical
high-pressure tank. In addition, hydrogen as a solid is more stable than
gas or liquid.

[snip]


"Back when the couple started the company, in 1960, she says, "we went to a
solar energy meeting in Florida, and all they were doing was essentially
using large magnifying glasses to burn wood, showing the power of the sun."
The Ovshinskys had much bigger ideas for alternative energy technology; they
started developing solar cells and storage systems for the electricity
generated."

""In 1960, people wondered what we were doing," she says. "There was no
shortage of energy. But Stan was quite aware that soon there would be
shortage of oil. Another reason we work in this area is that where there's
oil, there always seems to be political conflict. And we are very much for
peace.""

http://www.bu.edu/alumni/bostonia/20...les/energetic/





Despite these questions, Larry Burns of GM feels good about the future of
hydrogen cars.
Borrowing a line from the movie "Field of Dreams," he tells Alan, "If you
build it, they
will come."




Our choices are driven by price. Energy from oil is still cheaper than the
other choices. Cheaper unless we factor in the economic and human costs of
insuring "the free flow of oil at market prices" as Limbaugh calls it.

Frank Dresser

"helmsman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:40:41 GMT, "Frank Dresser"
wrote:



Thing is it only takes one brain storm, one flash of brilliance!

It starts with a flash of brilliance, but then it takes hard work and
investment to turn the flash of brilliance into a healthy business. And, as
long as oil is believed to be cheaper than the other choices, the other
choices won't be fully developed.

I think we will continue with our cheap oil policy until most of the easily
pumped oil is gone. Civilization won't end with the end of easy oil. The
price of energy will rise, and we will get serious about developing all the
alternative sources of energy which are now sitting on the shelf.

Frank Dresser

Nuclear is one option, but I am not so sure it's the only one. For
example, Denmark right now generates 15% of their electricity with
wind factories.

I also think hydrogen is expensive to manufacture, was not aware that
ethanol also is.
I think that Brazil has cheap ethanol manufacturing plants from sugar
cane (and corn? not sure).


(WShoots1) wrote in message ...
The real cure is Hydrogen

Providing electricity used to make it is generated by a source using renewable
energy.

It takes 4 to 10 times as much energy to make hydrogen than the resulting
hydrogen provides.

Ethanol has the same negative efficiency problem.

For the long term, only nuclear powered electricity generating plants will
provide most of the necessary energy for direct and (hydrogen making) indirect
uses.

Bill, K5BY

Carlo: Nuclear is one option, but I am not so sure it's the only one. For
example, Denmark right now generates 15% of their electricity with wind
factories.

Of course, wind and solar, which are true renewable sources of energy, should
be used wherever they are feasible. But, NIMBYs aside, the resulting
electricity cannot power reciprocating engines. Hydrogen can, but it takes lots
of energy to make it. The only feasible way is to use electricity -- the
electrolysis method. But then, again, it would take a lot of electrical energy.
Thus the only source of seemingly unlimited electricity is from a breeder
reactor. Even for a conventional reactor there is something like 500 year's
worth of uranium available. But the breeder would take care of the waste
problem, too.

The electrolysis method, which is certainly better than the negative result of
converting methane, requires water, another commodity that is getting scare.
There is, in Florida I believe, an experimental site that is mating a
desalinating plant with a nuke power plant. The possibilities there seem
endless. Between sea water and nuclear energy, all the water and energy needs
of the world could be fulfilled.

73,
Bill, K5BY

= = = (Carlo Broglia) wrote in message
= = = om...
Nuclear is one option, but I am not so sure it's the only one. For
example, Denmark right now generates 15% of their electricity with
wind factories.

I also think hydrogen is expensive to manufacture, was not aware that
ethanol also is.
I think that Brazil has cheap ethanol manufacturing plants from sugar
cane (and corn? not sure).

CB,

This is due to Brazil's being an Oil Poor Country with Cheap Farm
Labor Costs and certain Government Policies related to the Production
of Ethanol and a Petro Mixture of 76% Gas and 24% Ethanol.
NOTE: India is developing a major Ethanol Fuel Program.
http://www.ieabioenergy.com/media/42...gyinBrazil.htm
http://www.crystalsugar.com/media/ne...es/cargill.asp
* Brazilian Ethanol is three times cheaper than U.S. Ethanol,
about 60 cents a Gallon compared with today's American price
of $1.80 a Gallon.
* Brazil has the Ethanol. It is the world leader in Sugar Production,
Ethanol Production and Ethanol Exports.
- In 2003, Brazil Harvested 350 Million Metric Tons of Cane.
- Produced 3.6 Billion Gallons of Ethanol.
- Owned 50 Percent of the Global Ethanol Export Market.

In Brazil, ALL of the Automotive Fuel sold 'contains' "Ethanol".
ALCOOL= http://www.ne-ethanol.org/piaui2.htm
In fact, Brazilian motorists can choose from two different fuels.
One contains about 22% ethanol blended with gasoline.
The other is 100% pure ethanol known as "ALCOOL".
Engines can be designed to run on 100% ethanol.

New Technology Brings Change to Brazil's Ethanol Industry
http://www.ethanol-gec.org/winter96/eawin9605.htm

US States "Ethanol" Map.
http://www.ethanol-gec.org/memgov.htm

Ethanol FAQs
http://www.praj.net/fuelethanolplants.htm

Other "Ethanol" Links:
http://agriculture.about.com/cs/impo...t/a/022904.htm
http://www.ieabioenergy.com/media/42...gyinBrazil.htm

Something to Think About ~ RHF
..
..
(WShoots1) wrote in message ...
The real cure is Hydrogen

Providing electricity used to make it is generated by a source using renewable
energy.

It takes 4 to 10 times as much energy to make hydrogen than the resulting
hydrogen provides.

Ethanol has the same negative efficiency problem.

For the long term, only nuclear powered electricity generating plants will
provide most of the necessary energy for direct and (hydrogen making) indirect
uses.

Bill, K5BY