In the thread Rain static I referred to a closed surface which is
clearly
defined by Gauss's law. Let us now look at a time vary field applied to

a dielectric. I fht efield is applied for the shortest of time the
charges
will stay on the surface. If time is longer than the shortest space of
time
then charges will openetrate the closed surface. If the surface is an
insulator type then it takes a long while to penetrate but if the
surface
is a good conductor then the charges will penetrate very quickly so
we can associate the time constant of penetration to the subject of
skin depth. If we are to associate the time varying field to a
gaussian field
all the excess charges must be on the surface by law. Or in other words
the time evolved must be shorter than the time required to begin
penetration.
Thus for a short space of time all charges are on the surface and the
charges
have a magnhe radiating eneetic and electric field vectors. Just having
charges is not enough to convert to a gaussian field in that a gaussian
field must be in equilibrium thus a cluster of elements
must have the direction of the surface charges change in unison. For a
cluster of elements to do this they must all be resonant such that the
charges reach the ends of the elements at the same time. Resonance of
an element is determined by its diameter and its length and because it
is coupled to other elements in the cluster the coupling must be taken
into account to secure resonance of not only the individual elements
but of the cluster as a whole. When this is accomplished the charges on
the surface of the closed volume are in equilibrium but onty for that
shortest of short time and where that time is added to the gaussian
formulae for the transition to be complete. For the Gaussian field or
volume we can say the energy inside the gaussian field is equal to that
supplied by flux to the outside of the border and remember the flux
inside consists of magnetic and electric vectoirs. We now can say that
in a moment of time the flux produced from each element that breaches
the border in summation with the other elements is equal to the
radiating field outside of the border when each element energy makes
the transmittion. Thus the summation of each of the clustered elements
individual energy when the vectors are given a value
must equal the flux on the outside of the border that produces
radiation. We also know that if we have a cluster of elements that are
clustered together we can obtain radiation by just applying a time
varing field to just one of the elements and by virtue of intercoupling
all the radiating energy
will leave the near field. Thus we have two different methods of
determining the value of the radiated field
! radiation from the clustered within a Gaussian field and
2 radiation from an array of coupled elements
Since the elements within the cluster are all of the same "Q'" the
determination of all factors
in the resulting equation are simplified to Ohms law and where the
laborious coupling calculations
are omitted. The above describes in first principles as to how a
Gaussian field in a short space of time can be equated to a radiating
cluster using existing laws of the masters which also embraces NEC
code. Now many have said I have no understanding of radiation concepts
so go ahead and tear this apart and have a merry Xmas doing it
Art Unwin KB9MZ..........XG

On 19 Dec 2006 07:46:21 -0800, "art" wrote:

In the thread Rain static I referred to a closed surface which is
clearly
defined by Gauss's law.

Hi Art,

A "closed" surface is described by its geometry, not Gauss's law. No
charges, Gaussian or otherwise, are required to "close" it. Rather,
what is defined by the "closed surface" is the charge. You measure
the charge by moving it through the surface. I will explain below how
this too is wrong.

If the surface is an
insulator type then it takes a long while to penetrate

A closed surface is not required to be of any substance to still be a
closed surface. Closing the surface is simply a mathematical
description of space, not what is within it.

but if the
surface
is a good conductor then the charges will penetrate very quickly

Now, if we were to consider a material that is bounded by an equation
(like a cycloid, or volume of revolution); then your two examples are
described BACKWARDS. Charge on a practical, conducting surface will
NOT penetrate to the inside because the mutual repulsion forces charge
to the point of least curvature (this is why spark gaps using sharp
pins have a lower breakdown than those using balls).

Another concept you have wrong is the nature of current and flux. Flux
is a vector of charge, not the movement of charge. Flux and closed
surfaces are used to prove if the charge is inside the surface (the
flux transits an odd number of surfaces) or outside the surface (the
flux transits an even number of surfaces).

Hence, the remainder of your discussion doesn't make much sense, does
it?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

This is why I directed the original question to academics
You never took 101 so You can't do it
Thru the years you have been a good example of
Those who can...do
Those that can' t...........teach
You are a perfect example of the latter...all talk....no walk





Richard Clark wrote:
On 19 Dec 2006 07:46:21 -0800, "art" wrote:

In the thread Rain static I referred to a closed surface which is
clearly
defined by Gauss's law.

Hi Art,

A "closed" surface is described by its geometry, not Gauss's law. No
charges, Gaussian or otherwise, are required to "close" it. Rather,
what is defined by the "closed surface" is the charge. You measure
the charge by moving it through the surface. I will explain below how
this too is wrong.

If the surface is an
insulator type then it takes a long while to penetrate

A closed surface is not required to be of any substance to still be a
closed surface. Closing the surface is simply a mathematical
description of space, not what is within it.

but if the
surface
is a good conductor then the charges will penetrate very quickly

Now, if we were to consider a material that is bounded by an equation
(like a cycloid, or volume of revolution); then your two examples are
described BACKWARDS. Charge on a practical, conducting surface will
NOT penetrate to the inside because the mutual repulsion forces charge
to the point of least curvature (this is why spark gaps using sharp
pins have a lower breakdown than those using balls).

Another concept you have wrong is the nature of current and flux. Flux
is a vector of charge, not the movement of charge. Flux and closed
surfaces are used to prove if the charge is inside the surface (the
flux transits an odd number of surfaces) or outside the surface (the
flux transits an even number of surfaces).

Hence, the remainder of your discussion doesn't make much sense, does
it?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On 19 Dec 2006 08:49:00 -0800, "art" wrote:

Thru the years you have been a good example of
Those who can...do
Those that can' t...........teach
You are a perfect example of the latter...all talk....no walk

Hi Art,

Hence, you stand to learn from teaching - n'est pas?

Your having nothing substantive to respond to in terms of the topic,
it stands to reason you cannot reject my coverage which is in fact
elementary Coulomb and Gauss.

You still have not broached the subject of how you accumulated 50 Ohms
non-reactive from 5 wires haphazardly strewn about, nor explained how
you measured their Z in a static field. We await something of more
technical deliberation from you.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
In the thread Rain static I referred to a closed surface which is
clearly
defined by Gauss's law.

Gauss's law doesn't define a surface, the surface is any arbitrary surface
surrounding a charge.

Let us now look at a time vary field applied to

a dielectric. I fht efield is applied for the shortest of time the
charges
will stay on the surface. If time is longer than the shortest space of
time

you make it sound like there is some 'shortest' time where charges won't
move. this is not true. no matter how short you make the time it will move
the charges.

then charges will openetrate the closed surface. If the surface is an
insulator type then it takes a long while to penetrate but if the
surface

Here you mix up 'surface' and 'surface'. the gauss's law 'surface' is a
mathematically useful construction around a charge, it does not have any
charge 'on' it, nor is there any 'penetration' of it by charge in gauss's
law. it is strictly a non-material thing that is used only for calculation
purposes.

is a good conductor then the charges will penetrate very quickly so
we can associate the time constant of penetration to the subject of
skin depth. If we are to associate the time varying field to a
gaussian field

you have yet to define a 'gaussian field'. gauss's law applies to electric
fields and their relation to charges.

all the excess charges must be on the surface by law.

only in a 'perfect' conductor. dielectrics and 'empty' space can have
distributed charges throughout.

Or in other words
the time evolved must be shorter than the time required to begin
penetration.

huh? it just goes down hill from here. write some equations, do some
drawings, publish a manuscript. all the rest is empty handwaving based on
incorrect assumptions and missing definitions.

Thus for a short space of time all charges are on the surface and the
charges
have a magnhe radiating eneetic and electric field vectors. Just having
charges is not enough to convert to a gaussian field in that a gaussian
field must be in equilibrium thus a cluster of elements
must have the direction of the surface charges change in unison. For a
cluster of elements to do this they must all be resonant such that the
charges reach the ends of the elements at the same time. Resonance of
an element is determined by its diameter and its length and because it
is coupled to other elements in the cluster the coupling must be taken
into account to secure resonance of not only the individual elements
but of the cluster as a whole. When this is accomplished the charges on
the surface of the closed volume are in equilibrium but onty for that
shortest of short time and where that time is added to the gaussian
formulae for the transition to be complete. For the Gaussian field or
volume we can say the energy inside the gaussian field is equal to that
supplied by flux to the outside of the border and remember the flux
inside consists of magnetic and electric vectoirs. We now can say that
in a moment of time the flux produced from each element that breaches
the border in summation with the other elements is equal to the
radiating field outside of the border when each element energy makes
the transmittion. Thus the summation of each of the clustered elements
individual energy when the vectors are given a value
must equal the flux on the outside of the border that produces
radiation. We also know that if we have a cluster of elements that are
clustered together we can obtain radiation by just applying a time
varing field to just one of the elements and by virtue of intercoupling
all the radiating energy
will leave the near field. Thus we have two different methods of
determining the value of the radiated field
! radiation from the clustered within a Gaussian field and
2 radiation from an array of coupled elements
Since the elements within the cluster are all of the same "Q'" the
determination of all factors
in the resulting equation are simplified to Ohms law and where the
laborious coupling calculations
are omitted. The above describes in first principles as to how a
Gaussian field in a short space of time can be equated to a radiating
cluster using existing laws of the masters which also embraces NEC
code. Now many have said I have no understanding of radiation concepts
so go ahead and tear this apart and have a merry Xmas doing it
Art Unwin KB9MZ..........XG

David,
I thought we agreed to disagree. I know what your problem is and that
is what we are talking about is not in any book therefore Art must be
in error and everything is known about radiation. Well David I am not a
member of that school. My phillosohy is a can do where as yours and
others have a can't do attitude which supplies refuge from original
thought. It is known that when a person is angry or emotional about
something access to logic is blocked by the brain and as such I can do
nothing for you until that subsides but then again if you are NOT
curious or open minded you will retreat to the morass that you are
presently in.
I know that you are intelligent the same that I am aware of my own
shortcommings in explaining things but from my point of view if you
were just a little bit curious of what I am stating then you would
pursue a path that would reach a venue that I am describing rather than
blaming every written word over content.
Nothing personal David, I know you are sincere in your thought so let
it slide you should not take on a personal commitment to be the first
to prove me in error , Richard has pursued that path for years but he
needs to go to his friends back in San Fransisco for a fresh infusion
of what makes him happy.
So just enjoy the ride
and observe the reactions of others to what is basic radiation and note
their approach to the subject. We have a debate which many have asked
for by condeming those who bring offf topic threads and foul language
The news group comprises of those who are interested in antenna and
radiation soooooooo what do you want from this newsgroup.....your
choice, use it or give it up
Best regards
Art Unwin.........XG


Dave wrote:
"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
In the thread Rain static I referred to a closed surface which is
clearly
defined by Gauss's law.

Gauss's law doesn't define a surface, the surface is any arbitrary surface
surrounding a charge.

Let us now look at a time vary field applied to

a dielectric. I fht efield is applied for the shortest of time the
charges
will stay on the surface. If time is longer than the shortest space of
time

you make it sound like there is some 'shortest' time where charges won't
move. this is not true. no matter how short you make the time it will move
the charges.

then charges will openetrate the closed surface. If the surface is an
insulator type then it takes a long while to penetrate but if the
surface

Here you mix up 'surface' and 'surface'. the gauss's law 'surface' is a
mathematically useful construction around a charge, it does not have any
charge 'on' it, nor is there any 'penetration' of it by charge in gauss's
law. it is strictly a non-material thing that is used only for calculation
purposes.

is a good conductor then the charges will penetrate very quickly so
we can associate the time constant of penetration to the subject of
skin depth. If we are to associate the time varying field to a
gaussian field

you have yet to define a 'gaussian field'. gauss's law applies to electric
fields and their relation to charges.

all the excess charges must be on the surface by law.

only in a 'perfect' conductor. dielectrics and 'empty' space can have
distributed charges throughout.

Or in other words
the time evolved must be shorter than the time required to begin
penetration.

huh? it just goes down hill from here. write some equations, do some
drawings, publish a manuscript. all the rest is empty handwaving based on
incorrect assumptions and missing definitions.

Thus for a short space of time all charges are on the surface and the
charges
have a magnhe radiating eneetic and electric field vectors. Just having
charges is not enough to convert to a gaussian field in that a gaussian
field must be in equilibrium thus a cluster of elements
must have the direction of the surface charges change in unison. For a
cluster of elements to do this they must all be resonant such that the
charges reach the ends of the elements at the same time. Resonance of
an element is determined by its diameter and its length and because it
is coupled to other elements in the cluster the coupling must be taken
into account to secure resonance of not only the individual elements
but of the cluster as a whole. When this is accomplished the charges on
the surface of the closed volume are in equilibrium but onty for that
shortest of short time and where that time is added to the gaussian
formulae for the transition to be complete. For the Gaussian field or
volume we can say the energy inside the gaussian field is equal to that
supplied by flux to the outside of the border and remember the flux
inside consists of magnetic and electric vectoirs. We now can say that
in a moment of time the flux produced from each element that breaches
the border in summation with the other elements is equal to the
radiating field outside of the border when each element energy makes
the transmittion. Thus the summation of each of the clustered elements
individual energy when the vectors are given a value
must equal the flux on the outside of the border that produces
radiation. We also know that if we have a cluster of elements that are
clustered together we can obtain radiation by just applying a time
varing field to just one of the elements and by virtue of intercoupling
all the radiating energy
will leave the near field. Thus we have two different methods of
determining the value of the radiated field
! radiation from the clustered within a Gaussian field and
2 radiation from an array of coupled elements
Since the elements within the cluster are all of the same "Q'" the
determination of all factors
in the resulting equation are simplified to Ohms law and where the
laborious coupling calculations
are omitted. The above describes in first principles as to how a
Gaussian field in a short space of time can be equated to a radiating
cluster using existing laws of the masters which also embraces NEC
code. Now many have said I have no understanding of radiation concepts
so go ahead and tear this apart and have a merry Xmas doing it
Art Unwin KB9MZ..........XG

O.K. David
you have had some time to settle down so let us look at the things you
have raised and you apparently have the book by Ramos and co
Yes Gauss defines the surface as you pointed out but the arbitary
border encloses charges that are in equilibrium which is three
dimensional. When you follow his thinking regarding the energy inside
of the arbitary border he invokes a surface for a vector determination.
I therefore submit that the Gaussian field is a closed surface by
virtue of equilibrium and how he uses the surface as a foundation for
his law. Look at the chapter in the book and examine the drawing that
is used to explain the formation of Gaussian law and you will see it is
three dimensional. The arbitriness that is implied depends purelyon the
makeup of that which is in equilibrium and where in its ideal shape
would be circular. but where two charges are close to each other the
field surounding those charges will be at a minimum at a point between
then such that the arbitary border surface shape will change.

Now let us look at the time factor of an element which is energised for
a short space of time.
As the current flows for a half wave it travels forward and on the
surface where all the applied energy resides which is very important to
us as the moment the current penetrates decay begins and we what to
account for all the energy applied and not only what is left on the
surface since excess charges must reside on the surface. That statement
is very important for full understanding) So we really talking about a
small moment in time ie "dt" and you will see that term in formular
applied to skin depth.
So we apply a time varying energy that runs on the surface in one
direction it then reverses direction at a certain depth in the
dielectric at which time it has removed itself from the surface,
encountered a resistance to flow and starts the decay process.So a
short space of time is just long enough for a charge to move such that
a electric charge is implanted on the surface which then goes on to
generate a magnetic field which is a very short moment of time. . At
that short moment in time we have implanted a static charge with a
vector value of zero an accumulation of which can be called a
CONSERVATIVE field. That vector tho of zero value is a electric vector
and a magnetic vector outherwise known as "curl" but since it is of
zero value it constitutes as a static charge.
That should be enough for a while for you to cogitate upon.
Regards
Art



Dave wrote:
"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
In the thread Rain static I referred to a closed surface which is
clearly
defined by Gauss's law.

Gauss's law doesn't define a surface, the surface is any arbitrary surface
surrounding a charge.

Let us now look at a time vary field applied to

a dielectric. I fht efield is applied for the shortest of time the
charges
will stay on the surface. If time is longer than the shortest space of
time

you make it sound like there is some 'shortest' time where charges won't
move. this is not true. no matter how short you make the time it will move
the charges.

then charges will openetrate the closed surface. If the surface is an
insulator type then it takes a long while to penetrate but if the
surface

Here you mix up 'surface' and 'surface'. the gauss's law 'surface' is a
mathematically useful construction around a charge, it does not have any
charge 'on' it, nor is there any 'penetration' of it by charge in gauss's
law. it is strictly a non-material thing that is used only for calculation
purposes.

is a good conductor then the charges will penetrate very quickly so
we can associate the time constant of penetration to the subject of
skin depth. If we are to associate the time varying field to a
gaussian field

you have yet to define a 'gaussian field'. gauss's law applies to electric
fields and their relation to charges.

all the excess charges must be on the surface by law.

only in a 'perfect' conductor. dielectrics and 'empty' space can have
distributed charges throughout.

Or in other words
the time evolved must be shorter than the time required to begin
penetration.

huh? it just goes down hill from here. write some equations, do some
drawings, publish a manuscript. all the rest is empty handwaving based on
incorrect assumptions and missing definitions.

Thus for a short space of time all charges are on the surface and the
charges
have a magnhe radiating eneetic and electric field vectors. Just having
charges is not enough to convert to a gaussian field in that a gaussian
field must be in equilibrium thus a cluster of elements
must have the direction of the surface charges change in unison. For a
cluster of elements to do this they must all be resonant such that the
charges reach the ends of the elements at the same time. Resonance of
an element is determined by its diameter and its length and because it
is coupled to other elements in the cluster the coupling must be taken
into account to secure resonance of not only the individual elements
but of the cluster as a whole. When this is accomplished the charges on
the surface of the closed volume are in equilibrium but onty for that
shortest of short time and where that time is added to the gaussian
formulae for the transition to be complete. For the Gaussian field or
volume we can say the energy inside the gaussian field is equal to that
supplied by flux to the outside of the border and remember the flux
inside consists of magnetic and electric vectoirs. We now can say that
in a moment of time the flux produced from each element that breaches
the border in summation with the other elements is equal to the
radiating field outside of the border when each element energy makes
the transmittion. Thus the summation of each of the clustered elements
individual energy when the vectors are given a value
must equal the flux on the outside of the border that produces
radiation. We also know that if we have a cluster of elements that are
clustered together we can obtain radiation by just applying a time
varing field to just one of the elements and by virtue of intercoupling
all the radiating energy
will leave the near field. Thus we have two different methods of
determining the value of the radiated field
! radiation from the clustered within a Gaussian field and
2 radiation from an array of coupled elements
Since the elements within the cluster are all of the same "Q'" the
determination of all factors
in the resulting equation are simplified to Ohms law and where the
laborious coupling calculations
are omitted. The above describes in first principles as to how a
Gaussian field in a short space of time can be equated to a radiating
cluster using existing laws of the masters which also embraces NEC
code. Now many have said I have no understanding of radiation concepts
so go ahead and tear this apart and have a merry Xmas doing it
Art Unwin KB9MZ..........XG

sorry, you just aren't grasping the basics so any further discussion is
pointless. make up your own definitions, write the formulas, and publish a
paper and maybe if it gets accepted in a decent periodical i'll read it and
understand.

"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
O.K. David
you have had some time to settle down so let us look at the things you
have raised and you apparently have the book by Ramos and co
Yes Gauss defines the surface as you pointed out but the arbitary
border encloses charges that are in equilibrium which is three
dimensional. When you follow his thinking regarding the energy inside
of the arbitary border he invokes a surface for a vector determination.
I therefore submit that the Gaussian field is a closed surface by
virtue of equilibrium and how he uses the surface as a foundation for
his law. Look at the chapter in the book and examine the drawing that
is used to explain the formation of Gaussian law and you will see it is
three dimensional. The arbitriness that is implied depends purelyon the
makeup of that which is in equilibrium and where in its ideal shape
would be circular. but where two charges are close to each other the
field surounding those charges will be at a minimum at a point between
then such that the arbitary border surface shape will change.

Now let us look at the time factor of an element which is energised for
a short space of time.
As the current flows for a half wave it travels forward and on the
surface where all the applied energy resides which is very important to
us as the moment the current penetrates decay begins and we what to
account for all the energy applied and not only what is left on the
surface since excess charges must reside on the surface. That statement
is very important for full understanding) So we really talking about a
small moment in time ie "dt" and you will see that term in formular
applied to skin depth.
So we apply a time varying energy that runs on the surface in one
direction it then reverses direction at a certain depth in the
dielectric at which time it has removed itself from the surface,
encountered a resistance to flow and starts the decay process.So a
short space of time is just long enough for a charge to move such that
a electric charge is implanted on the surface which then goes on to
generate a magnetic field which is a very short moment of time. . At
that short moment in time we have implanted a static charge with a
vector value of zero an accumulation of which can be called a
CONSERVATIVE field. That vector tho of zero value is a electric vector
and a magnetic vector outherwise known as "curl" but since it is of
zero value it constitutes as a static charge.
That should be enough for a while for you to cogitate upon.
Regards
Art



Dave wrote:
"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
In the thread Rain static I referred to a closed surface which is
clearly
defined by Gauss's law.

Gauss's law doesn't define a surface, the surface is any arbitrary
surface
surrounding a charge.

Let us now look at a time vary field applied to

a dielectric. I fht efield is applied for the shortest of time the
charges
will stay on the surface. If time is longer than the shortest space of
time

you make it sound like there is some 'shortest' time where charges won't
move. this is not true. no matter how short you make the time it will
move
the charges.

then charges will openetrate the closed surface. If the surface is an
insulator type then it takes a long while to penetrate but if the
surface

Here you mix up 'surface' and 'surface'. the gauss's law 'surface' is a
mathematically useful construction around a charge, it does not have any
charge 'on' it, nor is there any 'penetration' of it by charge in gauss's
law. it is strictly a non-material thing that is used only for
calculation
purposes.

is a good conductor then the charges will penetrate very quickly so
we can associate the time constant of penetration to the subject of
skin depth. If we are to associate the time varying field to a
gaussian field

you have yet to define a 'gaussian field'. gauss's law applies to
electric
fields and their relation to charges.

all the excess charges must be on the surface by law.

only in a 'perfect' conductor. dielectrics and 'empty' space can have
distributed charges throughout.

Or in other words
the time evolved must be shorter than the time required to begin
penetration.

huh? it just goes down hill from here. write some equations, do some
drawings, publish a manuscript. all the rest is empty handwaving based
on
incorrect assumptions and missing definitions.

Thus for a short space of time all charges are on the surface and the
charges
have a magnhe radiating eneetic and electric field vectors. Just having
charges is not enough to convert to a gaussian field in that a gaussian
field must be in equilibrium thus a cluster of elements
must have the direction of the surface charges change in unison. For a
cluster of elements to do this they must all be resonant such that the
charges reach the ends of the elements at the same time. Resonance of
an element is determined by its diameter and its length and because it
is coupled to other elements in the cluster the coupling must be taken
into account to secure resonance of not only the individual elements
but of the cluster as a whole. When this is accomplished the charges on
the surface of the closed volume are in equilibrium but onty for that
shortest of short time and where that time is added to the gaussian
formulae for the transition to be complete. For the Gaussian field or
volume we can say the energy inside the gaussian field is equal to that
supplied by flux to the outside of the border and remember the flux
inside consists of magnetic and electric vectoirs. We now can say that
in a moment of time the flux produced from each element that breaches
the border in summation with the other elements is equal to the
radiating field outside of the border when each element energy makes
the transmittion. Thus the summation of each of the clustered elements
individual energy when the vectors are given a value
must equal the flux on the outside of the border that produces
radiation. We also know that if we have a cluster of elements that are
clustered together we can obtain radiation by just applying a time
varing field to just one of the elements and by virtue of intercoupling
all the radiating energy
will leave the near field. Thus we have two different methods of
determining the value of the radiated field
! radiation from the clustered within a Gaussian field and
2 radiation from an array of coupled elements
Since the elements within the cluster are all of the same "Q'" the
determination of all factors
in the resulting equation are simplified to Ohms law and where the
laborious coupling calculations
are omitted. The above describes in first principles as to how a
Gaussian field in a short space of time can be equated to a radiating
cluster using existing laws of the masters which also embraces NEC
code. Now many have said I have no understanding of radiation concepts
so go ahead and tear this apart and have a merry Xmas doing it
Art Unwin KB9MZ..........XG

The closest thing to this I came across is Hertzian dipole fields via
looking at static/quasi-static waves.

Quick summary below without reproducing lots of formulas:
The hertzian dipole is 2 charges +q and -q connected together by wire. q=
I/w sin wt. -q= -I/w sin wt.The formulas are then followed through and
solved to obtain 1/r terms which are in phase. Obtain power crossing a
closed surface. Poynting vector must have a 1/r squared term, and formulas
for E and H must have 1/r terms and be in phase. The formulas for E and H
fields then satisy Maxwells equations. The formulas obtained via the
quasi-static fields route are the same as those obtained via the magnetic
vector potential route.

David , you did not refute anything t said so I don't know if you
agreed with what I said so we could move onto the next step.....or...
you could show me what part you disagree with and why. That is the
purpose of a debate but it is not to be and you are being left on your
own by others that could have contributed and supported you I suppose
that if you hurled abuse
you would had people climbing over each other to follow you just for
the fun of it which is what ham radio is coming down to.
Time will tell
best regards and thankyou for supplying your side of the discussion
Art



Dave wrote:
sorry, you just aren't grasping the basics so any further discussion is
pointless. make up your own definitions, write the formulas, and publish a
paper and maybe if it gets accepted in a decent periodical i'll read it and
understand.

"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
O.K. David
you have had some time to settle down so let us look at the things you
have raised and you apparently have the book by Ramos and co
Yes Gauss defines the surface as you pointed out but the arbitary
border encloses charges that are in equilibrium which is three
dimensional. When you follow his thinking regarding the energy inside
of the arbitary border he invokes a surface for a vector determination.
I therefore submit that the Gaussian field is a closed surface by
virtue of equilibrium and how he uses the surface as a foundation for
his law. Look at the chapter in the book and examine the drawing that
is used to explain the formation of Gaussian law and you will see it is
three dimensional. The arbitriness that is implied depends purelyon the
makeup of that which is in equilibrium and where in its ideal shape
would be circular. but where two charges are close to each other the
field surounding those charges will be at a minimum at a point between
then such that the arbitary border surface shape will change.

Now let us look at the time factor of an element which is energised for
a short space of time.
As the current flows for a half wave it travels forward and on the
surface where all the applied energy resides which is very important to
us as the moment the current penetrates decay begins and we what to
account for all the energy applied and not only what is left on the
surface since excess charges must reside on the surface. That statement
is very important for full understanding) So we really talking about a
small moment in time ie "dt" and you will see that term in formular
applied to skin depth.
So we apply a time varying energy that runs on the surface in one
direction it then reverses direction at a certain depth in the
dielectric at which time it has removed itself from the surface,
encountered a resistance to flow and starts the decay process.So a
short space of time is just long enough for a charge to move such that
a electric charge is implanted on the surface which then goes on to
generate a magnetic field which is a very short moment of time. . At
that short moment in time we have implanted a static charge with a
vector value of zero an accumulation of which can be called a
CONSERVATIVE field. That vector tho of zero value is a electric vector
and a magnetic vector outherwise known as "curl" but since it is of
zero value it constitutes as a static charge.
That should be enough for a while for you to cogitate upon.
Regards
Art



Dave wrote:
"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
In the thread Rain static I referred to a closed surface which is
clearly
defined by Gauss's law.

Gauss's law doesn't define a surface, the surface is any arbitrary
surface
surrounding a charge.

Let us now look at a time vary field applied to

a dielectric. I fht efield is applied for the shortest of time the
charges
will stay on the surface. If time is longer than the shortest space of
time

you make it sound like there is some 'shortest' time where charges won't
move. this is not true. no matter how short you make the time it will
move
the charges.

then charges will openetrate the closed surface. If the surface is an
insulator type then it takes a long while to penetrate but if the
surface

Here you mix up 'surface' and 'surface'. the gauss's law 'surface' is a
mathematically useful construction around a charge, it does not have any
charge 'on' it, nor is there any 'penetration' of it by charge in gauss's
law. it is strictly a non-material thing that is used only for
calculation
purposes.

is a good conductor then the charges will penetrate very quickly so
we can associate the time constant of penetration to the subject of
skin depth. If we are to associate the time varying field to a
gaussian field

you have yet to define a 'gaussian field'. gauss's law applies to
electric
fields and their relation to charges.

all the excess charges must be on the surface by law.

only in a 'perfect' conductor. dielectrics and 'empty' space can have
distributed charges throughout.

Or in other words
the time evolved must be shorter than the time required to begin
penetration.

huh? it just goes down hill from here. write some equations, do some
drawings, publish a manuscript. all the rest is empty handwaving based
on
incorrect assumptions and missing definitions.

Thus for a short space of time all charges are on the surface and the
charges
have a magnhe radiating eneetic and electric field vectors. Just having
charges is not enough to convert to a gaussian field in that a gaussian
field must be in equilibrium thus a cluster of elements
must have the direction of the surface charges change in unison. For a
cluster of elements to do this they must all be resonant such that the
charges reach the ends of the elements at the same time. Resonance of
an element is determined by its diameter and its length and because it
is coupled to other elements in the cluster the coupling must be taken
into account to secure resonance of not only the individual elements
but of the cluster as a whole. When this is accomplished the charges on
the surface of the closed volume are in equilibrium but onty for that
shortest of short time and where that time is added to the gaussian
formulae for the transition to be complete. For the Gaussian field or
volume we can say the energy inside the gaussian field is equal to that
supplied by flux to the outside of the border and remember the flux
inside consists of magnetic and electric vectoirs. We now can say that
in a moment of time the flux produced from each element that breaches
the border in summation with the other elements is equal to the
radiating field outside of the border when each element energy makes
the transmittion. Thus the summation of each of the clustered elements
individual energy when the vectors are given a value
must equal the flux on the outside of the border that produces
radiation. We also know that if we have a cluster of elements that are
clustered together we can obtain radiation by just applying a time
varing field to just one of the elements and by virtue of intercoupling
all the radiating energy
will leave the near field. Thus we have two different methods of
determining the value of the radiated field
! radiation from the clustered within a Gaussian field and
2 radiation from an array of coupled elements
Since the elements within the cluster are all of the same "Q'" the
determination of all factors
in the resulting equation are simplified to Ohms law and where the
laborious coupling calculations
are omitted. The above describes in first principles as to how a
Gaussian field in a short space of time can be equated to a radiating
cluster using existing laws of the masters which also embraces NEC
code. Now many have said I have no understanding of radiation concepts
so go ahead and tear this apart and have a merry Xmas doing it
Art Unwin KB9MZ..........XG