Submarine patents have gone away with a change in the maximum duration of a
patent being measured from the date of filing (and not the date of issue).
Additionally, almost all applications are published 1.5 years after filing.
Can not hide.
73, Mac N8TT

--
J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A.
Home:
"Jim Lux" wrote in message


Go look up "submarine patent" for more details on how this works.

On 20 Jun, 16:32, John Smith I wrote:
Jim Lux wrote:

[stuff]

I see!

So now, old Rob-boy has not only whamboozled a whole bunch of Phd's and
physics personnel at URI, he how as a "bunch" of hams from arrlri.org to
carve notches on his pistol grips for ... interesting, the only hams
able to see though his sham are here ... or else, the reverse is true!

As my buddy Arnie would say, "Enteresting, veeerrry enteresting ... "

JS

I see that Chip of Fractenna stated that he no longer had any
"scientific
interest" in the antenna after talking at length with the inventor.
Chip is open minded so I am inclined to believe that it does not
increase the state of the art with respect to antennas. The point
is well taken that antennas can achieve great heights of achievements
with respect to radiation but it is quite rare to achieve ALL
desirables at the same time. I believe the ARRL optimised antenna
that I compared my antenna with is a typical example of this and
emphasises where my antenna shined. As far as antennas for amateur
radio
I really don't think there is a market for antennas other than the IR
antenna I went to a couple of ham fests last year and they closed
early
because of the lack of buyers. I suppose ham radio reflects the
veterans
of WW2 where many of those who were doers are gradually dying off
leaving former CBers in the majority.
Regards
Art
Regards
Art

art wrote:

[stuff]

Obviously, all he might have done is found a way to use existing
methods, techniques and knowledge to be able to change the loading and
radiation characteristics ...

However, that might just be enough to be usable. I have needed a
stealth antenna more times than I could shake a stick at. And, smaller
mobile antennas with improved characteristics are always desirable ...

It is easier to bend laws than to break 'em ...

JS

art wrote:

I really don't think there is a market for antennas other than the IR
antenna I went to a couple of ham fests last year and they closed
early because of the lack of buyers.

Most Hamfests these days start too early and end too early. That has
been a trend for several years now.

It's short sighted though. If I want to go to say the Butler or Timonium
Hamfests, both around 2.5 hours from Happy Valley, I have to get up at
around 3 a.m. so I can be there when they open.

Now it's getting to the point that unless you're a local, going to a
Hamfest can be a great way to wreck your weekend. Sheer timing is the
big problem IMO. Not Ebay or the actuarial tables.


I suppose ham radio reflects the
veterans of WW2 where many of those who were doers are gradually dying off
leaving former CBers in the majority.

I suppose that some of the Amateurs in that age group may believe such a
thing. I kind of doubt it is the actual case though.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

Michael Coslo wrote:
....

Most Hamfests these days start too early and end too early. That has
been a trend for several years now.

It's short sighted though. If I want to go to say the Butler or Timonium
Hamfests, both around 2.5 hours from Happy Valley, I have to get up at
around 3 a.m. so I can be there when they open.

Now it's getting to the point that unless you're a local, going to a
Hamfest can be a great way to wreck your weekend. Sheer timing is the
big problem IMO. Not Ebay or the actuarial tables.

I have to agree. I'm 4-6 hours from just about any hamfest I'd want to
attend so I have to leave around midnight or get a hotel room. Not
being in my 20's anymore it's a hotel room and that adds quite a bit of
overhead to what would be low hamfest prices, and faced with that I
usually put a search on ebay and wait for the email.

If they started at noon or even 10:00 it would be a whole different
story, I'd much prefer to buy at fests simply for the eyeball contacts.

- Galen, W8LNA

art wrote:
On 20 Jun, 13:02, Jim Lux wrote:


Glad you wrote that Jim. A lot of people have no real idea of how
the patent idea is used in commerce or that the claims are the
most important part so at to protect in the event of new
advances in science.When competing for contracts it is
important to protect your designs even tho trivial incase
the contract is put out again.

I do have a question tho
and that is with respect to trade secrets/utility patents.
If a person decides not to patent and the idea is later
deciphered does that prevent a patent issued to either
party?

Nope.. he who discovers first gets the potential ability to patent,
regardless of what you've done in the past. "first to discover vs first
to disclose". (US vs EU) If you've disclosed it, you have a year to get
the app filed (in the US.. everywhere else, you have to file before
first public disclosure) "disclosure" is kind of a tricky thing too.

That's why that evidence of date of invention (the classic bound
notebook with the signature on the page of someone who "read and
understood") is handy. That establishes "priority"


From a strategic point, it used to be (before the started publishing
apps) that you'd have a trade secret AND file an application. You'd mark
your thing "Patent Pending". You'd make little changes (possibly in
response to an examiner's questions, or possibly as a "Continuation in
Part" CIP) in the application to extend the time before the patent gets
granted and published. If someone looked like they had independently
discovered what your secret is (or they acquired it by espionage), you'd
let the application start running, and then you'd go to the competitor
and say, "Hey, we've got this patent application in the works, and YOU
don't know what's in it, and we're NOT going to tell you what's in it.
When the patent issues, we might be able to put you out of business.
Feel Lucky?" Then, negotiations for a license ensue.


This is all changing though, so don't take what I write as gospel.

With respect to submarines I thought the last
changes to patent law now prevents this.
Another posting stated that it is for the courts to determine
if a patent was authentic yet I read that the courts have now
stated that they are not in the game of overuling the
patent office any more.

There is that, too...

However, you still have to go to court to enforce your patent. The
alleged infringer has to say why your patent is invalid or why they
don't infringe. This isn't cheap. If the infringer is an off-shore
mfr, then you might get a customs order to stop importation, but that's
like playing whack-a-mole, because each and every container load will
likely be from a (ostensibly)different infringer.

J. Mc Laughlin wrote:
Submarine patents have gone away with a change in the maximum duration of a
patent being measured from the date of filing (and not the date of issue).
Additionally, almost all applications are published 1.5 years after filing.
Can not hide.
73, Mac N8TT


Gone mostly away, I'd say...
There is an "art" in the writing of disclosures and claims that cause
the patent to not look applicable. I knew someone who patented
everything using the word "Catalyst" in the title, etc. There are
thousands and thousands of catalyst patents issued all the time, so
yours would be lost in the morass, and nobody has the time to read ALL
the patents.

Modern search engines help a lot to fight this.

There's also the fact that standards bodies are much better about making
participants in a standards setting process disclose their "patents in
waiting" so you don't get submarined by adopting a standard, only to
find the next year that it requires a license from some patent holder.

gwatts wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:
...

Most Hamfests these days start too early and end too early. That
has been a trend for several years now.

It's short sighted though. If I want to go to say the Butler or
Timonium Hamfests, both around 2.5 hours from Happy Valley, I have to
get up at around 3 a.m. so I can be there when they open.

Now it's getting to the point that unless you're a local, going to
a Hamfest can be a great way to wreck your weekend. Sheer timing is
the big problem IMO. Not Ebay or the actuarial tables.

I have to agree. I'm 4-6 hours from just about any hamfest I'd want to
attend so I have to leave around midnight or get a hotel room. Not
being in my 20's anymore it's a hotel room and that adds quite a bit of
overhead to what would be low hamfest prices, and faced with that I
usually put a search on ebay and wait for the email.

If they started at noon or even 10:00 it would be a whole different
story, I'd much prefer to buy at fests simply for the eyeball contacts.


I really enjoy the hamfest at Dayton, where they start at 0800, and
sell all day. I think how this got started was that the sellers agitated
for earlier starts, and earlier begat earlier, until we ended up with
what we have now. One of our semi local fests starts at 0700 and is over
at noon.

Obviously not going to get the church crowd either.. 8^)

So I guess they got everything they wanted - and lost a lot of the
customers in the deal.


- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

In message , Michael Coslo
writes
gwatts wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:
...

Most Hamfests these days start too early and end too early. That
has been a trend for several years now.

It's short sighted though. If I want to go to say the Butler or
Timonium Hamfests, both around 2.5 hours from Happy Valley, I have to
get up at around 3 a.m. so I can be there when they open.

Now it's getting to the point that unless you're a local, going
to a Hamfest can be a great way to wreck your weekend. Sheer timing
is the big problem IMO. Not Ebay or the actuarial tables.
I have to agree. I'm 4-6 hours from just about any hamfest I'd want
to attend so I have to leave around midnight or get a hotel room. Not
being in my 20's anymore it's a hotel room and that adds quite a bit
of overhead to what would be low hamfest prices, and faced with that I
usually put a search on ebay and wait for the email.
If they started at noon or even 10:00 it would be a whole different
story, I'd much prefer to buy at fests simply for the eyeball contacts.


I really enjoy the hamfest at Dayton, where they start at 0800,
and sell all day. I think how this got started was that the sellers
agitated for earlier starts, and earlier begat earlier, until we ended
up with what we have now. One of our semi local fests starts at 0700
and is over at noon.

Obviously not going to get the church crowd either.. 8^)

So I guess they got everything they wanted - and lost a lot of
the customers in the deal.


- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

In the UK, amateur 'hamfests' and 'tailgate sales' used to be a fairly
leisurely affair, starting at a round 11am, and go on until 5 or even
6pm, allowing lots of time to wander around, meet your long-lost friends
etc (ie a 'good day out'). These days, opening time is often as early as
9am, with some dealers starting to pack up around noon. Ordinary
tailgate sales sometimes do start at early as 7am. Things ain't what
they used to be.
Ian.
--

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:58:13 -0700, Jim Lux
wrote:

"Hey, we've got this patent application in the works, and YOU
don't know what's in it, and we're NOT going to tell you what's in it.
When the patent issues, we might be able to put you out of business.
Feel Lucky?"

In fact, the manufacturer is completely lucky. Their product line can
continue forever based on the design preceeding publication - even if
the design and the publication are the same. They just can't change
it.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC