Great, thanks! Really appreciate it,
Woody


"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:46:51 GMT, "Woody" wrote:

Ok, maybe that's what I'll do then... So should I use a balun of any kind
or
just make a coax connection of my own?

Hi Woody,

To answer this and your other question about radials, I will use my
own experience.

I drove a ground rod at a remote point, about 12 feet from the house
and closer to the woods. My shack was at ground level and this rod
was more an anchor for a former vertical (where the rod extended up
out of the ground for a foot). Anyway, my principle ground was the
service ground 6 feet from my operating position with both rods tied
together.

At the remote rod (basically at the crest of the ridge), I fanned out
radials down the slope. Don't worry about tuning them, or cutting
them for a band, the proximity of ground completely negates any sense
of tune.

At this remote point, I built a box that contained a choke (a short
length of coax with 50 or 70 beads) that terminated in a BNC bulkhead
connector at one end, and two porcelain posts.

One post was tied to the radial field, the other post was tied to the
skywire. This put the system ground out at the feedpoint when I ran
battery (I always do unless I am on a float charge). This means any
house noise was 12 feet further away than would have normally been
encountered and snubbed properly by the choke. I measured this and
found it to be quite effective for noise control alone.

The sky wire (12 ga THNN) merely lifted off from about 1 foot off the
ground up to the canopy (Maples) around 60 feet above. The wire ran
down the hill, on top of the canopy for about 200 feet. At the remote
end, I simply tied it to a limb (at ground level, the wire ending
somewhere high above) through a length of 1/16th inch nylon line
(crab-pot line). So, from the feedpoint to on-high, the wire
basically described a sideways V with ground (as the slope also fell
beneath it too at roughly the same angle of 25 degrees).

During a storm, two of my Maples snapped about 30 feet above ground
level (but down the slope) and one lay over horizontal, and was
suspended there 20 feet above ground by snagging other trees. The
traditional term for that 30 foot length of tree in this area is
called a "widow maker." On its way down, it hit my wire, ripped the
box off the post, yanked the coax along until it strained my house
connection and broke the coax connection there.

After the storm, I hove the wire over the widow maker, confirmed the
1/16th inch nylon withstood the strain (who wulda thought?) and
repaired the stripped BNC house connection. Amazingly only the ground
wire to the radial field broke when the box started to fly.

We get messages here from those who agonize about setting the woods on
fire - never happened to me, and I never worried about it.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Hi Denny, thanks again for the help... I guess I should expand a bit.. I'm
not just thinking of a manual tuner, but also an auto tuner, like used
Triton, SGC or Icom marine/military type, so I sometimes get my wires
crossed. I've read about a lot of folks using ladder line and such to feed
the antenna and that was also a question. For the longwire originating in
the shack, I've played with that setup before when testing radios I sell,
and it really plays havoc with my electronics and computers, so I may just
forego the whole manual tuner thing completely. I'd prefer to find a way to
feed with coax if possible.

thanks!
Woody


"Denny" wrote in message
ups.com...
Woody,
you have received plenty of advice... Let me simplify if I may..

The tuner has to sit within reach usually, so that means the end of
the long wire drops down into the shack to the tuner, no coax
involved... No baluns, etc. are needed or advised...

On certain bands the case of the antenna tuner is likely to bite you
when you touch it and the rig also The cure for this is to run a
quarter wave radial for each band from the ground terminal of the
tuner... These can be run around in the room, or exit out the window
and fan out on the ground can be slit into the dirt, whatever
MFJ actually makes a tuner for the ground radials.. Works quite
well...

The purpose of the ground radial is to act as a counterpoise for the
antenna currents reduces ground current losses and to move the RF
peak voltage out to the end of the quarter wave radial leaving the
tuner/radio at low RF potential...

Don't over analyze this... Just hang your longwire, put out your
ground radials, and have fun on the bands...

denny / k8do

Yup, Now there, I agree totally... thanks much for the help!
rb

"John Ferrell" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 04:19:44 -0700, Denny wrote:

Woody,
you have received plenty of advice... Let me simplify if I may..

The tuner has to sit within reach usually, so that means the end of
the long wire drops down into the shack to the tuner, no coax
involved... No baluns, etc. are needed or advised...

On certain bands the case of the antenna tuner is likely to bite you
when you touch it and the rig also The cure for this is to run a
quarter wave radial for each band from the ground terminal of the
tuner...
The SGC-237 keeps the bite outside with the antenna. No RF in the
shack! It does need a source of 12 Volts to power it. There may be
less expensive auto tuners but I am really tired of having to buy
cheaper models only to eventually buy the top of the line...

John Ferrell W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to
plow around the stumps"

On Jul 10, 11:14 am, "Woody" wrote:
Hi Denny, thanks again for the help... I guess I should expand a bit.. I'm
not just thinking of a manual tuner, but also an auto tuner, like used
Triton, SGC or Icom marine/military type,

Well, with the remote autotuner you will have less RF in the shack...
But even then I would hang ground radials off the tuner case to keep
it at lower voltage potentials...
Since you are willing to spring for an SGC, etc. given your
description of your site I would think about an off center fed wire
antenna... Run your longwire through the trees... Roughly an 1/8 wave
lowest band back from one end of the antenna drop a vertical wire
to the ground and use the tuner to feed the end of the drop wire... A
ground stake and some radials and you are likely to be in business...
You can fool with snipping a bit off the long end of the wire if one
of the bands gives the tuner a hard time... This should play...

Now, ALL the tuners you mentioned and I know of are single ended, i.e.
are not truely balanced for balanced feed line and putting a "balun"
on the end of the ladder line does not make it a balanced tuner...

Now, I use open wire feed for the majority of my antennas, but I build
my own balanced tuners and open wire...

cheers ... denny

Well, with the remote autotuner you will have less RF in the shack...
But even then I would hang ground radials off the tuner case to keep
it at lower voltage potentials...

Definitely! One of the characteristics of the SGC autotuners is that
they seem to *require* a really good RF ground. Their tuning
circuitry "wants" to work into a ground connection which has a lower
impedance than the wire. SGC's manual makes this point repeatedly,
and identifies "grounding problems" (poor bonding, high inductance,
etc.) as the commonest cause of "Hey, this thing won't tune" problems
with their autotuners.

My own experience with a used, older-model SGC 230 (so old it's in a
non-waterproof metal case) seems to back this up. When used with a
relatively simple ground, the tuner has serious problems in achieving
a match, and frequently won't ever find one.

I tend to think that these arbitrary-wire tuners work best in their
original environment - bolted to a really big, solid chunk of metal
such as a ship body or a tank.

Another "gotcha" - the tuner I have, at least, can become seriously
"confused" if you try to use it with a radio that has aggressive "high
SWR power reduction" circuitry to protect the finals. In such a radio
(my Kenwood TS-2000 is one), the output power jumps around a lot as
the autotuner tries different L-network match settings, and the tuner
firmware seems to misinterpret these transmitter power changes and
never actually finds a low-SWR match. The same tuner, and the same
wire and grounding setup, will often match within a few seconds when
power is applied from another transmitter which doesn't alter its
output power so abruptly (e.g. a Ten-Tec Scout 555).

I've given up trying to use my old SGC-230 - it's so quirky that I
just can't depend on it to work acceptably in my environment, with my
radio.

Other vendors' autotuners may be less of a problem in this respect.

Since you are willing to spring for an SGC, etc. given your
description of your site I would think about an off center fed wire
antenna... Run your longwire through the trees... Roughly an 1/8 wave
lowest band back from one end of the antenna drop a vertical wire
to the ground and use the tuner to feed the end of the drop wire... A
ground stake and some radials and you are likely to be in business...

I'd recommend following SGC's recommendations... which probably add up
to "lots of heavy radials".

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Yeah, I noticed the same thing with the motorola triton, another antique....
maybe the newer ones aren't so quirky?
W

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
Well, with the remote autotuner you will have less RF in the shack...
But even then I would hang ground radials off the tuner case to keep
it at lower voltage potentials...

Definitely! One of the characteristics of the SGC autotuners is that
they seem to *require* a really good RF ground. Their tuning
circuitry "wants" to work into a ground connection which has a lower
impedance than the wire. SGC's manual makes this point repeatedly,
and identifies "grounding problems" (poor bonding, high inductance,
etc.) as the commonest cause of "Hey, this thing won't tune" problems
with their autotuners.

My own experience with a used, older-model SGC 230 (so old it's in a
non-waterproof metal case) seems to back this up. When used with a
relatively simple ground, the tuner has serious problems in achieving
a match, and frequently won't ever find one.

I tend to think that these arbitrary-wire tuners work best in their
original environment - bolted to a really big, solid chunk of metal
such as a ship body or a tank.

Another "gotcha" - the tuner I have, at least, can become seriously
"confused" if you try to use it with a radio that has aggressive "high
SWR power reduction" circuitry to protect the finals. In such a radio
(my Kenwood TS-2000 is one), the output power jumps around a lot as
the autotuner tries different L-network match settings, and the tuner
firmware seems to misinterpret these transmitter power changes and
never actually finds a low-SWR match. The same tuner, and the same
wire and grounding setup, will often match within a few seconds when
power is applied from another transmitter which doesn't alter its
output power so abruptly (e.g. a Ten-Tec Scout 555).

I've given up trying to use my old SGC-230 - it's so quirky that I
just can't depend on it to work acceptably in my environment, with my
radio.

Other vendors' autotuners may be less of a problem in this respect.

Since you are willing to spring for an SGC, etc. given your
description of your site I would think about an off center fed wire
antenna... Run your longwire through the trees... Roughly an 1/8 wave
lowest band back from one end of the antenna drop a vertical wire
to the ground and use the tuner to feed the end of the drop wire... A
ground stake and some radials and you are likely to be in business...

I'd recommend following SGC's recommendations... which probably add up
to "lots of heavy radials".

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Geez, thanks for all the help, please keep it rollin' !
w

"Denny" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 10, 11:14 am, "Woody" wrote:
Hi Denny, thanks again for the help... I guess I should expand a bit..
I'm
not just thinking of a manual tuner, but also an auto tuner, like used
Triton, SGC or Icom marine/military type,

Well, with the remote autotuner you will have less RF in the shack...
But even then I would hang ground radials off the tuner case to keep
it at lower voltage potentials...
Since you are willing to spring for an SGC, etc. given your
description of your site I would think about an off center fed wire
antenna... Run your longwire through the trees... Roughly an 1/8 wave
lowest band back from one end of the antenna drop a vertical wire
to the ground and use the tuner to feed the end of the drop wire... A
ground stake and some radials and you are likely to be in business...
You can fool with snipping a bit off the long end of the wire if one
of the bands gives the tuner a hard time... This should play...

Now, ALL the tuners you mentioned and I know of are single ended, i.e.
are not truely balanced for balanced feed line and putting a "balun"
on the end of the ladder line does not make it a balanced tuner...

Now, I use open wire feed for the majority of my antennas, but I build
my own balanced tuners and open wire...

cheers ... denny

In article imYki.1884$YH3.394@trnddc08, "Woody"
wrote:

Yeah, I noticed the same thing with the motorola triton, another antique....
maybe the newer ones aren't so quirky?
W

Interesting you should notice that. The original Binary Switch Lump
Constant Autotuners were those designed for the Triton Series MF/HF
SSB Radio's, from Motorola, by Bill Schilb. When he left Motorola
and came west, to Northern Radio in Seattle, he brought that technology
with him and introduced it to the MF/HF Marine Market. First at Northern,
which never did anything with it, and then on to SEA, thru the
ex-Northern Engineering Team, that followed Dick Stephens, from
Northern, to SEA, as Northern was sinking into oblivian. The first
Marine Product with this technology, was the SEA-1601 Autotuner, Designed
by Bill Forgey, and Mark Johnson. A sucsession of improvments followed
culminating in the SEA-1612B Autotuner. This is the model that SGC
copied, for their original product, including the Firmware that still had
the SEA Copyright, compiled in the code. Most of the later Binary
Switched Autotuners are, either Copied, or Reverse Engineered,
adaptations of the SEA1612B System. All these tuners NEED a Low
Impedance RF Ground to work against, as well as a Longwire who's length
is SPECIFICALLY set up to put the 1/2 Wavelength Point in a non used
portion of the Spectrum. They will NOT tune within 2% of the Natural
1/2 Wavelenth point of the Longwire connected, where Antenna Impedances
near Infinity.

There has been considerable work done, over the years, on making this
type tuner, drive Balanced Antennas. Some have used a 4:1 Balun,
directly across the tuner Output, with limited sucess. Some have
decoupled the Tuner from it's Coaxial Feedline, Power, and Tuner
Indicator Lines, by running them thru a Bifilar Wound Torroid at
the Tuner end, and then putting the tuner in the Center of a Dipole
cut for the Lowest Desired Frequency of the System. This type has proved
a better system than the Balun, but I have used both at Limited Coast
Stations thruout Alaska, and most are still in operation today.
G & L Marine Radio in Seattle, once designed an SEA-1612B based Autotuner
that had two Tuner boards, one for each side of the Balanced Antenna,
that ran off a single MCPU and Detector System, and just latched
the same Data into both boards. I never actually heard how well Don Sr.
got it to work, but always thought that it was an interesting concept.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

Most of the later Binary
Switched Autotuners are, either Copied, or Reverse Engineered,
adaptations of the SEA1612B System.
Copied or reverse engineered might be a bit harsh..

The idea of a automatically driven LC tuner has been around a while,
with DC motors, servos, or steppers. Once you have the concept of a
variable L or C that's "remote controlled" using a binary switched array
is a pretty obvious thing to try. (e.g. I built a binary switched power
inductor for ballasting a tesla coil to replace the more traditional
sliding core inductor or variac with a cut core, and I doubt I was the
first to think about it.)

I think the subtle details in SEA's, SGC's, LDG's, or MFJ's tuners would
deal more with the means of detecting the mismatch and the actual tuning
algorithm. From that standpoint, the SGC and LDG tuners (which are the
two I'm most familiar with) are quite different. SGC uses a pi net, LDG
uses L net with cap switched between in or out. SGC and LDG use
different bridge and detector designs. I'm pretty sure, also, that the
actual tuning sequence is different, just based on the sounds they make.

Well.. a million thanks for that. Quite a cool history lesson as well. So
now I'm looking for an SEA tuner... LOL...

Listen, that all makes perfect sense but just to clarify, a.) now I know why
that triton did so poorly when tested. We calc'd 1/2 wavelength for the
longwire, and b.) Again, for continuity and clarity of this thread for
future surfers...... what then, considering our discussed auto-tuners, would
be the optimal length for a longwire that would be used for amateur/MARS,
3-30MHz?
Pick 1/2wavelength on say 2.8Mhz and just cut it? Or calc 1/2wavelength on
the lowest and add 5% or some arbitrary odd number??
Which plan will offer the least chance of dropping a 1/2wl further up the
band on a desired frequency?
thanks,
Woody


"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message
...
In article imYki.1884$YH3.394@trnddc08, "Woody"
wrote:

Yeah, I noticed the same thing with the motorola triton, another
antique....
maybe the newer ones aren't so quirky?
W

Interesting you should notice that. The original Binary Switch Lump
Constant Autotuners were those designed for the Triton Series MF/HF
SSB Radio's, from Motorola, by Bill Schilb. When he left Motorola
and came west, to Northern Radio in Seattle, he brought that technology
with him and introduced it to the MF/HF Marine Market. First at Northern,
which never did anything with it, and then on to SEA, thru the
ex-Northern Engineering Team, that followed Dick Stephens, from
Northern, to SEA, as Northern was sinking into oblivian. The first
Marine Product with this technology, was the SEA-1601 Autotuner, Designed
by Bill Forgey, and Mark Johnson. A sucsession of improvments followed
culminating in the SEA-1612B Autotuner. This is the model that SGC
copied, for their original product, including the Firmware that still had
the SEA Copyright, compiled in the code. Most of the later Binary
Switched Autotuners are, either Copied, or Reverse Engineered,
adaptations of the SEA1612B System. All these tuners NEED a Low
Impedance RF Ground to work against, as well as a Longwire who's length
is SPECIFICALLY set up to put the 1/2 Wavelength Point in a non used
portion of the Spectrum. They will NOT tune within 2% of the Natural
1/2 Wavelenth point of the Longwire connected, where Antenna Impedances
near Infinity.

There has been considerable work done, over the years, on making this
type tuner, drive Balanced Antennas. Some have used a 4:1 Balun,
directly across the tuner Output, with limited sucess. Some have
decoupled the Tuner from it's Coaxial Feedline, Power, and Tuner
Indicator Lines, by running them thru a Bifilar Wound Torroid at
the Tuner end, and then putting the tuner in the Center of a Dipole
cut for the Lowest Desired Frequency of the System. This type has proved
a better system than the Balun, but I have used both at Limited Coast
Stations thruout Alaska, and most are still in operation today.
G & L Marine Radio in Seattle, once designed an SEA-1612B based Autotuner
that had two Tuner boards, one for each side of the Balanced Antenna,
that ran off a single MCPU and Detector System, and just latched
the same Data into both boards. I never actually heard how well Don Sr.
got it to work, but always thought that it was an interesting concept.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @