Today I started thinking about maybe putting up a 2-element SteppIR beam
rather than the 3-element tribander I was considering earlier... main
reason for this is the need to be able to operate on MARS frequencies that
are a ways outside the 20-meter band, too far outside to use normal
triband beams.

I'm wondering if the 2-element SteppIR (30 lbs weight, 4 sq. ft. area)
with a Mam-II or Tailtwister rotor (turns out I have both) will be
suitable for my 50-foot Rohn 25G.

The tower is currently guyed at 30 feet with heavy-duty stranded steel guy
wire (the real stuff, not that flimsy stuff Radio Shack sells) and I'm
planning to add another set of guys at the top perhaps using that
Phillystran (gotta look that stuff up and learn more about it...).

Do any of you have experience with the 2-element SteppIR and if so, how do
you like it?

It seems to me that the boom is mighty short at only 57 inches (1.44
meters). That spaces the elements less than 1/10 wl apart at 14.2 MHz
(actually only about 0.07 wl) which seems way too close to me.

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:39:39 -0400, "Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T)"
wrote:

That spaces the elements less than 1/10 wl apart at 14.2 MHz
(actually only about 0.07 wl) which seems way too close to me.

Why should it matter if it works?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

That spaces the elements less than 1/10 wl apart at 14.2 MHz
(actually only about 0.07 wl) which seems way too close to me.

Don't say "It seems." Run it on a modeling program, but remember it is only
tuned for one frequency, you can tweak it for gain or f/b. I think if you
don't need any bandwidth (well at least no more than 3 KHz) you can do quite
well with a short boom.

When you consider a SteppIR you need to throw out the old conventional
thinking, ecause you have the flexibility to reconfigure the elements the way
you want them.

I have a 3 element SteppIR. It is on a 16 ft boom. My HyGain 4 ele on 20 and
5 element monobanders on 10 and 15 had cleaner patterns than the SteppIR, but
they were 1.5 times as big. And they didn't work 12 and 17 meters.

Rick K2XT

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:59:09 -0700, Richard Clark wrote:

Why should it matter if it works?

Good afternoon, Richard.

Well, that's my question! :-)

How well does it work really, compared with, say, an optimum-spaced
2-element fixed-configuration yagi, or a TA-32 type 2-element trap
tribander?

After all, a thousand bucks is a lot of money, at least for me...

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:57:26 +0000, Rick wrote:

I have a 3 element SteppIR. It is on a 16 ft boom.

Good afternoon, Rick.

What kind of a mast or tower is it on, and what rotator are you using to
turn it?

"Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T)" wrote in
news
....
I'm planning to add another set of guys at the top perhaps using that
Phillystran (gotta look that stuff up and learn more about it...).

Rick, something to keep in mind in this day and age is that synthetic guys
are somewhat more at risk of vandalism, and to counter that, the section of
the guy that is reachable to a person is often made of flexible steel wire
rope (FSWR) where vandalism is a risk.

If you decide to use their pre-formed dead ends, read the instructions on
installation including end sealing of the guy material.

Owen

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:17:22 -0400, "Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T)"
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:59:09 -0700, Richard Clark wrote:

Why should it matter if it works?

Good afternoon, Richard.

Well, that's my question! :-)

How well does it work really, compared with, say, an optimum-spaced
2-element fixed-configuration yagi, or a TA-32 type 2-element trap
tribander?

After all, a thousand bucks is a lot of money, at least for me...

Hi Rick,

You could ask the same question for any decision - just means its the
wrong question.

We could all pitch in innumerable suggestions to a variety of "won't
works" from you, and will it move you an inch away from the SteppIR?

In engineering, if you can fully qualify your question, it has the
answer built in for free (you don't even need to ask for advice).

Clearly you have made a choice and this is more about validation,
hence my response to "why should it matter about picayune details."
The SteppIR's claim to fame is being infinitely variable. You freely
twist knobs until you achieve a match, what you get is what you get
(sort of a SteppZen outcome, isn't it?). If you cannot adjust the
distance between elements - what more is to be said? It sucks?

Probably, but then again, not so much as to discard it as useless
because it probably works better than a dipole. Even if it works only
as good as a dipole, it's resonant and rotatable. If that isn't good
enough, then you are buying a pig in a poke.

The real question is, do you know the performance of the SteppIR at
the frequency of your choice? If not, then it is an expensive pig in
a poke.

To this point, you have through various threads identified you need to
be frequency agile and quick. Myself, I haven't seen many choices you
have lead yourself toward that really qualify in that regard - so I am
suspicious of those qualifiers. The SteppIR certainly doesn't even
come close to the span of frequency you've identified (2 MHz to
20MHz), and you are beginning to accumulate quite an antenna farm as
it is.

There are an infinite variety of antennas, and some actually do
achieve exactly those criteria but you hedge away from them and space
considerations seems to rise here. It would seem you have to come to
terms with space restrictions and those choices left are going to have
some pain involved. You may achieve frequency agility, but not speed,
and not for cheap.

You want to try again? When I was teaching electronics in the Navy,
we had an acronym to advise our students during tests:
RTMFQ
For the easily offended (although I didn't know many in the Nav, there
seem to be some here), it should read in your case WTMFQ
Write The Meticulously Formulated Question.
If you cannot find the answer within, you weren't meticulous enough.
My bet is it will mean beaucoup bucks or you are going to shave off
"must haves."

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

I said:
I have a 3 element SteppIR. It is on a 16 ft boom.

The other Rick said:

What kind of a mast or tower is it on, and what rotator are you using to
turn it?


It's on a 72 ft US Tower crank-up, the medium sized tower, not the biggest
one. And the rotator is the Yaesu G-1000SDX. No problems with either.
Photos if you want them.
Incidentally, mine is shown on the SteppIR web page, showing me building it,
with the tower tilted over, and in QST ads showing pine trees all around bent
over from the wet snow but the SteppIR is clean. The snow did not accumulate
on the slick fiberglass elements! Been up 3 years now - perfection.

Rick K2XT

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:03:40 -0700, Richard Clark wrote:

We could all pitch in innumerable suggestions to a variety of "won't
works" from you, and will it move you an inch away from the SteppIR?

Of course. I don't know what makes you think I'm set on the SteppIR. I
only just started considering it two days ago. And a thousand bucks
really is a lot of money to me... might not be to some people.

Clearly you have made a choice and this is more about validation,

Nope, far from it.

If you cannot adjust the distance between elements - what more is to be
said? It sucks?

If it sucks, then yea, that's what needs to be said.

"Probably works better than a dipole" isn't good enough to spend a big one
on. As for being resonant and rotatable, that's not worth a thousand
bucks (to me) either.

To this point, you have through various threads identified you need to
be frequency agile and quick. Myself, I haven't seen many choices you
have lead yourself toward that really qualify in that regard - so I am
suspicious of those qualifiers. The SteppIR certainly doesn't even come
close to the span of frequency you've identified (2 MHz to 20MHz), and
you are beginning to accumulate quite an antenna farm as it is.

That would be true if I had actually put any of them up. So far I have
two inverted vees, one dual-band NVIS dipole, and a 144/220/440 vertical.

I have more than one need. The general need is to be able to operate on a
list of CAP and MARS frequencies from 2 to 24 MHz. That one doesn't need
any gain or directivity, or any specific level of power (I routinely
participate in CAP and MARS nets with my inverted vee and 5 watts out of
my FT-817). I'm considering the T2FD only because then I can load all the
needed frequencies into the radio and put it on scan, and if someone I
need to talk to shows up on one of the channels I can pick up the mic and
hope for the best. But I'm not about to spend $300 for one (sorry if that
sounds like I'm "hedging away"... whatever that means...).

The more specialized need requires higher power and a rotatable,
directional antenna, in the frequency range from something below 20 meters
up to 24 MHz, in order to be able to offer a specific MARS service. If
you're in MARS you know which service I'm referring to, and if you're not,
for some obscure and relatively bizarre reason I'm not allowed to say, but
it's an easy guess. In any case, I have been informed that I probably
won't be able to participate with a wire antenna and 150 watts, so since
it appears that's their story and they're stickin' to it, I'm looking for
some alternatives that don't involve buying a whole separate antenna just
for MARS.

It would seem you have to come to terms with space restrictions

Not sure where that impression came from, either. Actually I am quite
fortunate regarding space, with two acres of land arranged in a square 300
ft on a side, and lots of tall pine trees. I could put up a pair of the
biggest SteppIRs, stacked, on a 150-foot tower but there will never (ever)
be money available to do stuff like that, so I have to settle for what I
already have, or can afford... and what I have is several random sections
of Rohn 25G so that's what I put up.

You want to try again?

Thanks, but I guess not. I'm doing my best already, to gather information
and make a decision I can afford and will work reasonably efficiently for
me. I'm sorry if you find my questions unclear or "hedging" or whatever
but think I've been pretty clear on my questions up to now, and I've
learned a lot from reading you guys.

The fact is I have more than one question (surprise!), each of which has
been formulated meticulously enough, and each of which serves a different
though related need. This latest one is the simple and
meticulously-crafted question that says, simply, "Can a 2-element beam
work efficiently with only 0.07 wl spacing between elements?". The
related question, which I think is equally clear, was "Any of you guys
have the SteppIR 2-element and if so, what do you think of it?".

I can't think of a way to meticulously craft either of those questions
that will yield a self-contained answer on its own.

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:18:16 -0400, "Rick (W-A-one-R-K-T)"
wrote:

"Probably works better than a dipole" isn't good enough to spend a big one
on. As for being resonant and rotatable, that's not worth a thousand
bucks (to me) either.

Hi Rick,

This is what I mean by meticulous (in any formulation): What "is" good
enough? One could fill a book with what is wrong with a suggestion
and we would be no nearer an answer.

you are beginning to accumulate quite an antenna farm as it is.

That would be true if I had actually put any of them up. So far I have
two inverted vees, one dual-band NVIS dipole, and a 144/220/440 vertical.

OK, I suppose that's another way of saying having four antennas
covering up to 6 bands isn't enough - that is why we have our own
newsgroup, because many share that feeling.

I have more than one need. The general need is to be able to operate on a
list of CAP and MARS frequencies from 2 to 24 MHz. That one doesn't need
any gain or directivity, or any specific level of power (I routinely
participate in CAP and MARS nets with my inverted vee and 5 watts out of
my FT-817). I'm considering the T2FD only because then I can load all the
needed frequencies into the radio and put it on scan, and if someone I
need to talk to shows up on one of the channels I can pick up the mic and
hope for the best. But I'm not about to spend $300 for one (sorry if that
sounds like I'm "hedging away"... whatever that means...).

You have a need, but you are not going to spend $300 to fill it.
Again, you say what is wrong, but not what is right. Will you spend
$299? This threatens to call this portion of the game 300 questions.
So to practice the engineering form of Jeopardy: "in the form of a
question respond to 'I might spend more than $150 but less than
$300'?" (answer: "What is a binary search?" Thank you Don Pardo.)

Spending aside, a lot of performance be can be built for less if you
discount the value of your time (that is why they call it a hobby).
The trouble I have here is that you don't want to spend money (neither
would I), but then you ask about spendy items like the T2FD or
SteppIR. Say What?

I see the 2 to 24 MHz requirement trotted out, and strictly speaking
it is exceedingly obvious you won't buy that solution on the open
market for $300 or less (unless it is a bribe to a Government official
that has the power to surplus gear).

So it stands to reason you would have to build it. That can be done
to the limitations you offer above (and probably exceeding the
performance of the T2FD).

Doubling the dimensions of:
http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/ante.../Cage/cage.htm
would satisfy 3/4ths of your spectrum requirement and the ambitious
amateur could erect it without too much care for precision or cost. If
you were to come back to me with a negative reply ("it won't....")
what is one to do?

The more specialized need requires higher power and a rotatable,
directional antenna, in the frequency range from something below 20 meters

Tell me that you want to spend less than $300 for this and we can all
have a chuckle. About the only thing that qualifies was described as
having a Gaussian Array (no suggested retail price - and for good
reason).

I have been informed that I probably
won't be able to participate with a wire antenna and 150 watts, so since
it appears that's their story and they're stickin' to it, I'm looking for
some alternatives that don't involve buying a whole separate antenna just
for MARS.

I hope you didn't hear that story here, it qualifies as fiction in the
library. There are wire solutions that are steerable, and certainly
power is not an issue (especially if you were going to pour it into a
T2FD).

You want to try again?

Thanks, but I guess not. I'm doing my best already, to gather information
and make a decision I can afford and will work reasonably efficiently for
me. I'm sorry if you find my questions unclear or "hedging" or whatever
but think I've been pretty clear on my questions up to now, and I've
learned a lot from reading you guys.

Your questions tend toward seeking validation:
"Will X work for Y?"

To which some responses offer
"Um, yes, but why would you want to do that?"

"Because I don't what Z."

"OK, X for Y without Z can be found with model A."

"Model A will do, but it doesn't give me B."

"OK, X for Y without Z but with B."

This can go on for a long time.

The fact is I have more than one question (surprise!), each of which has
been formulated meticulously enough, and each of which serves a different
though related need.

We are up to model XY(/Z)+B+specialC, then.

This latest one is the simple and
meticulously-crafted question that says, simply, "Can a 2-element beam
work efficiently with only 0.07 wl spacing between elements?".

The W8JK works quite well at 0.10 wl spacing between elements and has
been around for more than 50 years. How much can squeezing it to 0.07
spacing hurt? The free version of EZNEC can answer that in less than
a minute (none).

If you build it wrong, then the answer is no, it cannot work
efficiently.

You can even buy one that won't work for the same reason - you as a
builder of the package of bits and pieces that arrives UPS. In this
world of free competition and lead painted toys for children, you can
also buy one that won't work - irrespective of your construction
talents.

Being meticulous about "efficient" would have you expressing what loss
is allowable. By inference to your tendency to select a T2FD (loss in
the ballpark of at least 3dB), then yes (and with proper design and
construction), 0.07 wl spacing between elements is efficient (even if
it loses 1.8dB along the way in getting there). If 1.8dB is too much
loss (another negative reaction), then you weren't very meticulous at
all. On the other hand, it would serve you well to know that doing
better would probably cost beaucoup bucks more than $300 (or even a
grand).

The
related question, which I think is equally clear, was "Any of you guys
have the SteppIR 2-element and if so, what do you think of it?".

I can't think of a way to meticulously craft either of those questions
that will yield a self-contained answer on its own.

Thus this newsgroup has a benefit - at least from my habit of
rhetorical excess. (a tip o' the hat to Myles for flowers.)

Your one-question-at-a-time is easy to respond to and satisfactory in
most respects, but when you combine the separate answers into this
goal of a Grand Unification Theory of MARS/CAP operation, it is like
watching someone on rubber crutches. I cringe, but laughing is one of
those involuntary reflexes.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC