Quiet sun radio noise is often used for measurements of radio receiving
systems. The radio flux from the quiet sun is a known signal in that it is
measured and reported at observatories around the earth, and therefore
provides a basis of assessment of radio receiving systems.

I have been playing around with a little online calculator to calculate
interpolated recent solar flux data for amateur radio UHF and microwave
bands from published observations.

It is at http://www.vk1od.net/qsrf for those who may find it useful.

Owen

Owen Duffy wrote in
:


Quiet sun radio noise is often used for measurements of radio
receiving systems. The radio flux from the quiet sun is a known signal
in that it is measured and reported at observatories around the earth,
and therefore provides a basis of assessment of radio receiving
systems.

I have been playing around with a little online calculator to
calculate interpolated recent solar flux data for amateur radio UHF
and microwave bands from published observations.

It is at http://www.vk1od.net/qsrf for those who may find it useful.

There was a time once....

I used to have an FT-221 tricked out with a hot front end. Solar noise
would run the S meter up to well over the S9 mark and you could even see
the galactic plane passing through the antenna pattern. Needless to say,
it heard well on terrestrial 2m SSB.

--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

Dave Oldridge wrote in
:

....
I used to have an FT-221 tricked out with a hot front end. Solar
noise would run the S meter up to well over the S9 mark and you could
even see the galactic plane passing through the antenna pattern.
Needless to say, it heard well on terrestrial 2m SSB.

That is no mean feat!

I think ambient noise temperature at 144MHz for an antenna pointed at
cold sky is somewhere around 200K to 250K, when you add a pretty good
receiver at say 30K, you are talking 230K to 280K total system noise, and
the sun is probably around 800K with a low end 4 bay EME antenna setup
(Gain~22dBi), for a noise rise of 10*log((800+255)/255) or 16dB.

A single yagi of gain around 15dBi is much poorer, not only is the sun
noise reduced proportionately to the gain reduction, but the ambient
noise increases with higher gain in the side and back area of the
antenna, but it still should be possible to reliably 'see' the sun with a
very good receiver.

Ambient noise temperature for a beam at zero elevation here in suburbia
varies from 1000K to 6000K depending on the day and time... so a very low
temperature receiver is wasted for terrestrial contacts.

Owen

Owen

I used to have an FT-221 tricked out with a hot front end. Solar
noise would run the S meter up to well over the S9 mark and you could
even see the galactic plane passing through the antenna pattern.
Needless to say, it heard well on terrestrial 2m SSB.

That is no mean feat!

You better believe no mean feat! I worked off the moon on 432 MHz back in
the late 70's. Sixteen 16 element Yagis (calculated gain ~26 dB) and an STA
from the FCC to use 5 KW as long as the antennas were pointed above 25
degrees elevation. (Protecting Eglin radars some 200 plus miles away.)

I could consistently manage some 4, 4-1/2 dB of sun noise off a quiet sun
and not one smidge more even with a mast mounted GaAs Fet preamp supposedly
with some 0.8 dB NF.

I DID however, at around the same time, own a 2 meter Jap all-mode
transceiver that I happened to measure the "S" meter accuracy with an HP
signal generator. It turned out that 2 uVolts was "S"-1. THREE uVolts was
"S"-9.

W4ZCB

I DID however, at around the same time, own a 2 meter Jap all-mode
transceiver that I happened to measure the "S" meter accuracy with an HP
signal generator. It turned out that 2 uVolts was "S"-1. THREE uVolts was
"S"-9.
==============================
Is it correct that for frequencies up to 30 MHz a S9 signal is 50
microvolt into 50 Ohms (or -73 dBm) but that for higher frequencies a
S9 signal is 5 microvolts into 50 ohms (or -93 dBm).
If that is (the agreed) norm ,was it ever formally sanctioned by IARU ?

I can hardly believe that any of the far eastern rice boxes have a
properly calibrated S-meter. Also the top end of the S-meter scale is
usually rather 'compressed', which surprises me since ICs with a log
type input/output relationship must be readily available.

Time to attempt calibrating the S-meter of my (almost vintage) TenTec
Paragon TRX.


Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

I DID however, at around the same time, own a 2 meter Jap all-mode
transceiver that I happened to measure the "S" meter accuracy with an HP
signal generator. It turned out that 2 uVolts was "S"-1. THREE uVolts was
"S"-9.
==============================
Is it correct that for frequencies up to 30 MHz a S9 signal is 50
microvolt into 50 Ohms (or -73 dBm) but that for higher frequencies a S9
signal is 5 microvolts into 50 ohms (or -93 dBm).
If that is (the agreed) norm ,was it ever formally sanctioned by IARU ?

I've never heard of a convention like that. Can't imagine a reason to make
it different for HF and VHF.

I can hardly believe that any of the far eastern rice boxes have a
properly calibrated S-meter. Also the top end of the S-meter scale is
usually rather 'compressed', which surprises me since ICs with a log type
input/output relationship must be readily available.

They are now. (AD 600, 603 and MOT chips with RSSI etc.) VERY expensive
compared to a couple of 2N2222 type IF transistors and mass production will
go to the ends of the earth to save a couple pennies.

Time to attempt calibrating the S-meter of my (almost vintage) TenTec
Paragon TRX.


Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

If I had a Paragon, I'd try very hard to get rid of it. The worst radio Ten
Rec ever made (And the only up conversion one I remember) WRT LO phase
noise. Horrible on of course, both RX and TX. I had to put up with a
neighbors for several years. (And he-me when he was receiving. My
transceiver improved a whole lot when he bought a new radio.)

W4ZCB

Highland Ham wrote in
:

I DID however, at around the same time, own a 2 meter Jap all-mode
transceiver that I happened to measure the "S" meter accuracy with an
HP signal generator. It turned out that 2 uVolts was "S"-1. THREE
uVolts was "S"-9.
==============================
Is it correct that for frequencies up to 30 MHz a S9 signal is 50
microvolt into 50 Ohms (or -73 dBm) but that for higher frequencies a
S9 signal is 5 microvolts into 50 ohms (or -93 dBm).
If that is (the agreed) norm ,was it ever formally sanctioned by IARU
?

I can hardly believe that any of the far eastern rice boxes have a
properly calibrated S-meter. Also the top end of the S-meter scale is
usually rather 'compressed', which surprises me since ICs with a log
type input/output relationship must be readily available.

Time to attempt calibrating the S-meter of my (almost vintage) TenTec
Paragon TRX.


Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH


Frank, leaving aside your apparent prejudice about the country of origin
of a radio...

It seems that IARU Region 1 Technical Recommendation 1 lays down the
Region 1 view of S meter equivalence in power, but that does not seem to
have wider acceptance more than 25 years later.

Talking about SSB telephony receivers...

The next problem that occurs is that many radios are loosely calibrated
with the selectable internal preamp OFF, a good idea for lower HF bands,
but questionable on VHF and above. The user manuals don't often state the
correct configuration for calibrated S meter response. Apparently, the
technology hasn't advanced enough to have the S meter calibrated whether
or not the internal preamp on in use.

(It is quite possible that the example that Harold gave is one of those
radios that is calibrated with internal preamp OFF and he measured it
with preamp ON.)

The radio's S meter may often be fairly roughly calibrated between about
S6 and S9+20 (with the preamp OFF if that is the case for the particular
radio), but is unlikely to be very accurate below and above that range.

Considering the design of a transceiver, if the S meter is calibrated
with preamp OFF, the receiver could have a noise figure around 15dB,
which means its noise floor is around -126dBm. Typically, the AGC is
deferred until the signal reaches about 20dB above the noise floor, so
that would be -106dBm+ which is about S3 and a half+. So the AGC will not
operate, and the S meter not deflect until the signal is above S3+, yet
the meters will typically be scaled from S0 or S1.

Next, these radios may be used with an external preamp, or a transverter,
both with substantial gain. So, a transceiver that is roughly calibrated
with the preamp OFF, is used with preamp ON for another 20dB or so of
gain, then an external 25dB preamp offset by a few dB of line loss, so
the S meter is now reading some 35dB high. The increased gain is usually
much higher for a LAN-transverter-transceiver cascade.

In my experience, quantitative signal reports handed out on VHF and above
are commonly nonsense, which is interesting given the greater focus on
weak signal working and understanding path characteristics.

The other thing that contributes to this nonsense is that people cheating
on power often give the other station the same report that they received
to disguise the lack of symmetry due to their own excessive tx power.

FM receiver S meter calibration is a whole 'nother thing. Lacking an AGC
system, it is typically limiter current that is used to drive the S meter
and it usually takes less than 10uV to drive them to full scale, S9 might
be indicated by just a few uV. Mind you, a 5uV FM signal has very good
S/N, but that doesn't make it a strong signal.

Owen

Talking about SSB telephony receivers...

The next problem that occurs is that many radios are loosely calibrated
with the selectable internal preamp OFF, a good idea for lower HF bands,
but questionable on VHF and above. The user manuals don't often state the
correct configuration for calibrated S meter response. Apparently, the
technology hasn't advanced enough to have the S meter calibrated whether
or not the internal preamp on in use.

(It is quite possible that the example that Harold gave is one of those
radios that is calibrated with internal preamp OFF and he measured it
with preamp ON.)
Owen

GM Owen

The transceiver I had back then didn't have a switcheable preamp. It was
just always on. Don't even remember the mfg, but it was a little flat radio.
3 inches high (if that) and spread all over the desktop. The "S" meter was
indeed driven from the limiters

Anyway, "S" meters that are inaccurate or change the value of the received
signal when you turn a preamp on or off (Or an attenuator on or off) are an
abomination. In this day and age of microprocessors, it's childs play to
adjust the "S" meter to accomodate those changes. (Take a look at the
"PicaStar" which does exactly that. It also yields 6 dB per "S" unit and 10
dB for every 10 dB over "S" 9 as well. Makes the radio into virtually a
piece of lab test equipment. Short of that use, the "S" meter report IS
rather rediculous. (You're 5-9, what was the call and name again?)

W4ZCB

Highland Ham wrote:
I DID however, at around the same time, own a 2 meter Jap all-mode
transceiver that I happened to measure the "S" meter accuracy with an
HP signal generator. It turned out that 2 uVolts was "S"-1. THREE
uVolts was "S"-9.
==============================
Is it correct that for frequencies up to 30 MHz a S9 signal is 50
microvolt into 50 Ohms (or -73 dBm) but that for higher frequencies a
S9 signal is 5 microvolts into 50 ohms (or -93 dBm).
If that is (the agreed) norm ,was it ever formally sanctioned by IARU ?

Wrong way around: those standards (along with 6dB per S-point) were
formally sanctioned by IARU, but almost no amateur receiver has ever met
those standards.

I can hardly believe that any of the far eastern rice boxes have a
properly calibrated S-meter. Also the top end of the S-meter scale is
usually rather 'compressed', which surprises me since ICs with a log
type input/output relationship must be readily available.

Conventional S-meters don't actually measure signal strength - they
measure the AGC voltage. The S-meter could only be accurate if the
voltage/gain characteristic of the AGC-controlled stages happened to be
accurately logarithmic across the entire dynamic range of the receiver;
which is almost never true.

An accurate S-meter will also need some compensation for variations in
gain across the HF bands. Above all, a true reading of 'signal strength'
should NOT change when you switch in a preamp or an attenuator, or vary
the RF gain.

For the long story, see 'S Meter Blues' by W8WWV:
http://tinyurl.com/8nme6



--

73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek

"Owen Duffy" wrote in message
...
Dave Oldridge wrote in
:

...
I used to have an FT-221 tricked out with a hot front end. Solar
noise would run the S meter up to well over the S9 mark and you could
even see the galactic plane passing through the antenna pattern.
Needless to say, it heard well on terrestrial 2m SSB.

That is no mean feat!

I think ambient noise temperature at 144MHz for an antenna pointed at
cold sky is somewhere around 200K to 250K, when you add a pretty good
receiver at say 30K, you are talking 230K to 280K total system noise, and
the sun is probably around 800K with a low end 4 bay EME antenna setup
(Gain~22dBi), for a noise rise of 10*log((800+255)/255) or 16dB.

A single yagi of gain around 15dBi is much poorer, not only is the sun
noise reduced proportionately to the gain reduction, but the ambient
noise increases with higher gain in the side and back area of the
antenna, but it still should be possible to reliably 'see' the sun with a
very good receiver.

Ambient noise temperature for a beam at zero elevation here in suburbia
varies from 1000K to 6000K depending on the day and time... so a very low
temperature receiver is wasted for terrestrial contacts.

Owen

Owen

I would like to see what mods are made to the 221 to do that and also what
kind of antenna system. I have a 221 I am using with a gasfet preamp in
the shack that should be less than 1 db of noise fugure and about 20 db of
gain. The antenna is a klm 22c and 75 feet of 9913 type of coax. I can
just see some sun noise with the antenna aimed at the sun. It sure does not
deflect the smeter several sunits. The antenna is on an azel mount. I am
sure the system is working as I compaired it to an Icom 706 and another
antenna that is mounted on a tower and I am getting about the differance in
signal levels I would expect at the horizon.