I am wanting to install an earth stake/rod for a new antenna system. The
problem I have is that the 'best' position for this falls somewhere near
where our underground sewer pipes run. As accurate measurements that I can
ascertain from the engineering drawings puts it somewhere within 3" (75mm)
of this sewer pipe and I am not prepared to rely on the accuracy of the
drawing and or the pipes installer and end up puncturing the sewer pipe!

I could drill a hole in a concrete path and sink the earth stake/rod through
the concrete path and this raises the question! Is this likely to be a good
position to put an earth stake/rod seeing the ground under the concrete path
would never get seasonal rain and in fact has not seen seasonal rain for
some 30 years!

Does this matter or is good old mother earth still going to provide a good
earth for my antenna system?

Sure would appreciate some advice regarding this.

VK5JE - from way 'down under'!

JERD wrote:
Does this matter or is good old mother earth still going to provide a good
earth for my antenna system?

I think you should look at an alternative ground system. For example,
a copper "matt" laid over the sewer pipes instead of between them.

If you have a decent earthworm population, you can lay it down on the
ground and in a few years it will be buried. I'm assuming that you
want something for HF work, so the size of the "squares" can be fairly
large, there is no reason to use screening.

If you are looking for an electrical saftey ground, for example as
lightening protection, then a horizontal ground rod will do. Bury it
below the "frost line" and you should be ok.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

(Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote in
:

JERD wrote:
Does this matter or is good old mother earth still going to provide a
good earth for my antenna system?

I think you should look at an alternative ground system. For example,
a copper "matt" laid over the sewer pipes instead of between them.

If you have a decent earthworm population, you can lay it down on the
ground and in a few years it will be buried. I'm assuming that you
want something for HF work, so the size of the "squares" can be fairly
large, there is no reason to use screening.

If you are looking for an electrical saftey ground, for example as
lightening protection, then a horizontal ground rod will do. Bury it
below the "frost line" and you should be ok.

Geoff.


I would hope that it’s for electrical safety as a ground rod has little
use as an RF ground. At best it’s no better than an 8’ ground radial. A
ground for lighting and electrical safety is a good thing but should be
used in parallel with an RF ground (radials or ground mat) for antennas.

John Passaneau W3JXP

JERD wrote:
Does this matter or is good old mother earth still going to provide a good
earth for my antenna system?

What is the function of the earth stake?
e.g. lightning protection? Counterpoise?
Increased gain?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

JERD wrote:
"Does it matter or is good old mother earth still going to provide a
good earth for my antenna system?'

According to B. Whitfield Griffith, Jr. in "Radio-Electronic
Transmission Fundamentals" on page 351, a single ground rod introduces
about 50 ohms to an antenna`s resistance. He says contact resistance to
the soil may be very low but the loss will be in the large area of soil
surrounding the rod. Radials are the answer to the low soil conductivity
probl;em.

A broadcast grounding system of 120 radials, each 1/4-wavelength long,
may have a ground resistance of about one ohm, as shown in Fig. 43-2 on
page 353.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"Increased gain?"

That is correct when considering "power gain" of an antenna, which is,
power into some reference antenna / power into the gain antenna in the
same direction.

"Directive gain" of an antenna has nothing to do with losses.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
. ..
JERD wrote:
Does this matter or is good old mother earth still going to provide a
good earth for my antenna system?

What is the function of the earth stake?
e.g. lightning protection? Counterpoise?
Increased gain?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

The function of the earth stake is to 'ground' my new HF ham rig and also
the AT-4 automatic antenna tuner.


JERD - (Original poster)
VK5JE

"JERD" wrote in
:

....
The function of the earth stake is to 'ground' my new HF ham rig and
also the AT-4 automatic antenna tuner.
....

Jerd,

Nothing here stated AC protective ground (which comes from the earth pin in
your three wire power socket) or lightning ground.

You have identified that you want to attach the second output terminal of
the AH4 to the electrode. The proposed electrode (whether or not it is
throught the path) is likely to have a resistance that results in a low
antenna system efficiency at frequencies where the radiation resistance of
the antenna is relatively low.

The article at http://www.vk1od.net/InvertedL/InvertedL.htm models a
scenario that is probably quite similar to that which you are considering,
and discusses points relevant to the design... could be worth a read.

Now, there will be a body of opinion that it doesn't matter what you do,
you will still get QSOs, that it therefore 'works'. It sounds from your
question that you are more interested in that shallow level of engagements,
so read around.

I wrote another article on a minimal setup again with an AH4 and end fed
wire, it is at http://www.vk1od.net/NaroomaEFW/NaroomaEFW.htm .

By all means, drive an earth electrode as you have proposed principally for
lightning protection (though I would use a 2.4m copper clad steel
electrode), but run at least a couple of (untuned) shallow buried bare
copper radial wires from the AH4. Locating the AH4 remotely from your shack
and house if you can will reduce the RF intensity in those places and
reduce EMC problems.

Catch you on air sometime.

Owen

JERD wrote:
The function of the earth stake is to 'ground' my new HF ham rig and also
the AT-4 automatic antenna tuner.

RF 'ground'? AC 'ground'? Lightning 'ground'? DC 'ground'?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Stefan Wolfe" wrote in
:

....
foot radial, counterpoise et al. A good, deep ground rod in reasonably
moist soil will turn the ground terminal on your radio into a true
zero voltage reference point and stop allowing your antenna and

A simple proposition for sure... but if it was true, why does the rod need
to be 8' long?

The only way that the ground terminal is a 'true zero voltage reference
point' wrt the larger ground mass at RF is that if the connection to the
ground mass is of zero length, and that isn't true either above or below
the ground.

Owen