Food for thought
About ten years ago a sattelite generated a barium
(diamagnetic ) cloud in space. When this cloud was
penetrated they found a cavity inside where there
was an electric field in which there was current flow.
This does not state that the return current actually
flows thru the inside of a radiator, only that current
flow is possible on the IINSIDE of a diamagnetic
material.
Art

On 26 Dec, 14:46, "AI4QJ" wrote:
"art" wrote in message

...

Food for thought
About ten years ago a sattelite generated a barium
(diamagnetic ) cloud in space. When this cloud was
penetrated *they found a cavity inside where there
was an electric *field in which there was current flow.
This does not state that the return current actually
flows thru the inside of a radiator, only that current
flow is possible on the IINSIDE of a diamagnetic
material.

For a static e field, of course, that would depend on the conductivity of
the material. Barium being a metal would be a better conductor than, say,
porcelain, another diamagnetic material. I doubt you would measure current
flow across an electric field thru porcelain, unless the field were time
varying.

I am not knoweledgable about those things but it does bother
me that it is accepted that the current on the antenna flows
up and then retraces its path on the way down.
For myself I do not understand why the flow is not down the
center within the underside of the so called surface skin.
For instance, if we had a half wave length surface then
the radiation would or should be equal to one full wave
length radiator. When I place a radiator inside a Gaussian
field it has to be near or at a full wave length to be resonant
and in equilibrium where the surface is what contains the
inductance and capacitance which are for the extremities of
movement for a parallel circuit and the return route must
be resistive only.
If I place one or more random length radiators of approx one wave
length with varying heights along its length into a antenna
program with an optimiser where it represents a gaussian
field,i.e. in equilibrium, the result will always be a non
planar array where the majority of elements are resonant
and at different angles and where the chosen fed element
drives all elements as one element by virtue of the array
being in equilibrium.Thus with varying heights the array
gets added gain but with a single feed point
If a half wave antenna is inserted initially that
would reflect the notion that the current travel was
2 X radiator length and thus the
array should consist of 1/2 wave radiators, which doesn't
compute!I.E resonant but not in equilibrium.
To me, this suggests that the return path is
down the center which is resistive only. My prior post
states that it is possible for current flow down the
center of a dimagnetic material which was the case
in a barium cloud.
From the above in then becomes logical that RADIATING
surface length is what counts and thus a helical antenna
must have a counter winding to be resonant AND in equilibrium.
So the main pont is, what exactly stops current travel down
the center of a radiator to conform with every day thinking?
Art

On 26 Dec, 19:45, "AI4QJ" wrote:
"art" wrote in message

...

" To me, this suggests that the return path is
down the center which is resistive only. My prior post
states that it is possible for current flow down the
center of a dimagnetic material which was the case
in a barium cloud.
From the above in then becomes logical that RADIATING
surface length is what counts and thus a helical antenna
must have a counter winding to be resonant AND in equilibrium.
So the main pont is, what exactly stops current travel down
the center of a radiator to conform with every day thinking?"

At AC, it is established knowledge that skin effect takes place in round
diamagnetic conductors such as copper and aluminum. Skin effect happens as a
result of Lentz's law. From Lentz's law, foucault currents are set up to
oppose the magnetic field of the AC current sent by the generator. The
result is net forward current existing on the 'skin' of the conductor with a
net reverse current inside the conductor. Think of the inside of the
conductor as being occuppied by a current moving back towards the generator
that sets up a magnetic field which opposes the magnetic field from the AC
current sent by the generator. So you can see that indeed there is current
flow through the center of the conductor; it will be a weak current but it
is nature's attempt to oppose the change in magnetic field. I think the
situation you are speaking to is having additional currents through the
center that are additive (or subtractive) to the foucault currents. With
proper material selection (such as mu-metal, a magnetic material of very
high permeability), it may be possible to maximize the foucault currents
themselves to nearly cancel the applied magnetic field ( from the current in
the generator). I believe it would be truely a pioneering effort to have
center currents above and beyond this value, or cancelled, or even reversed.
I would never say that it was impossible; after all, what is mu-metal but a
material engineered and manufactured by man to increase its permeability
several times and which has the effect of greatly reducing skin depth
several times, thus allowing for maximum foucault currents even at low
frequencies. Could this occur with diamagnetic materials as well? I will not
say no. *I am not sure if it has ever been tried. Could the complete
mitigation of skin effect increase the velocity factor close to c in a
vacuum? Maybe. What if you could actually reverse the skin effect? That gets
into the things you are thinking about, i.e, smaller antennas. This is well
outside the normal scope of thought but it is interesting to consider the
'what ifs' and that sort of thing does not violate Maxwell, it merely
extends the applicability of Maxwell, Lentz etc..

Thanks for the detailed response. A lot of new stuff
there for me to follow up on,a new word too.
The bottom line is how can one prove which path the
current takes when it reaches the top of an antenna?
Art

On 26 Dec, 21:33, "AI4QJ" wrote:
"AI4QJ" wrote in message

...







"art" wrote in message
...

" To me, this suggests that the return path is
down the center which is resistive only. My prior post
states that it is possible for current flow down the
center of a dimagnetic material which was the case
in a barium cloud.
From the above in then becomes logical that RADIATING
surface length is what counts and thus a helical antenna
must have a counter winding to be resonant AND in equilibrium.
So the main pont is, what exactly stops current travel down
the center of a radiator to conform with every day thinking?"

At AC, it is established knowledge that skin effect takes place in round
diamagnetic conductors such as copper and aluminum. Skin effect happens as
a result of Lentz's law. From Lentz's law, foucault currents are set up to
oppose the magnetic field of the AC current sent by the generator. The
result is net forward current existing on the 'skin' of the conductor with
a net reverse current inside the conductor. Think of the inside of the
conductor as being occuppied by a current moving back towards the
generator that sets up a magnetic field which opposes the magnetic field
from the AC current sent by the generator. So you can see that indeed
there is current flow through the center of the conductor; it will be a
weak current but it is nature's attempt to oppose the change in magnetic
field. I think the situation you are speaking to is having additional
currents through the center that are additive (or subtractive) to the
foucault currents. With proper material selection (such as mu-metal, a
magnetic material of very high permeability), it may be possible to
maximize the foucault currents themselves to nearly cancel the applied
magnetic field ( from the current in the generator). I believe it would be
truely a pioneering effort to have center currents above and beyond this
value, or cancelled, or even reversed. I would never say that it was
impossible; after all, what is mu-metal but a material engineered and
manufactured by man to increase its permeability several times and which
has the effect of greatly reducing skin depth several times, thus allowing
for maximum foucault currents even at low frequencies. Could this occur
with diamagnetic materials as well? I will not say no. *I am not sure if
it has ever been tried. Could the complete mitigation of skin effect
increase the velocity factor close to c in a vacuum? Maybe. What if you
could actually reverse the skin effect? That gets into the things you are
thinking about, i.e, smaller antennas. This is well outside the normal
scope of thought but it is interesting to consider the 'what ifs' and that
sort of thing does not violate Maxwell, it merely extends the
applicability of Maxwell, Lentz etc..

snip
Please help me out here as I am obviously missing something.
I am referring to a full wave radiator of a dimagnetic material
operating in tank circuit form. During a portion of the cycle
we have eddy currents due to the magnetic field. This magnetic field
is only around for a portion of the time because of the
nature of the material. It is what is happening during this time
that interests me since I theorise that the electric field is
levitating galactic particles. It is during this time I
am trying to understand the status of the inner core.
For instance the skin depth, isn't it changing in thickness?
Is this also producing a void of decaying electrons in the
radiating core etc when there is an absence of a magnetic field
and its absence of a eddy current? I don't want to get into
a standing wave sort of a discussion as the circumstances
appear to be unknown except what other things are at play.
When the magnetic field has dissapated, a short amount of
time before the capacitor discharges and what happens
when the capacitor discharges. I think we can say that
the internal structure of the material changes from
uniform to a random directional structure during this time.

On 28 Dec, 22:25, "AI4QJ" wrote:
"art" wrote in message

...
On 26 Dec, 21:33, "AI4QJ" wrote:



"AI4QJ" wrote in message

.. .

"art" wrote in message
....

" To me, this suggests that the return path is
down the center which is resistive only. My prior post
states that it is possible for current flow down the
center of a dimagnetic material which was the case
in a barium cloud.
From the above in then becomes logical that RADIATING
surface length is what counts and thus a helical antenna
must have a counter winding to be resonant AND in equilibrium.
So the main pont is, what exactly stops current travel down
the center of a radiator to conform with every day thinking?"

At AC, it is established knowledge that skin effect takes place in round
diamagnetic conductors such as copper and aluminum. Skin effect happens
as
a result of Lentz's law. From Lentz's law, foucault currents are set up
to
oppose the magnetic field of the AC current sent by the generator. The
result is net forward current existing on the 'skin' of the conductor
with
a net reverse current inside the conductor. Think of the inside of the
conductor as being occuppied by a current moving back towards the
generator that sets up a magnetic field which opposes the magnetic field
from the AC current sent by the generator. So you can see that indeed
there is current flow through the center of the conductor; it will be a
weak current but it is nature's attempt to oppose the change in magnetic
field. I think the situation you are speaking to is having additional
currents through the center that are additive (or subtractive) to the
foucault currents. With proper material selection (such as mu-metal, a
magnetic material of very high permeability), it may be possible to
maximize the foucault currents themselves to nearly cancel the applied
magnetic field ( from the current in the generator). I believe it would
be
truely a pioneering effort to have center currents above and beyond this
value, or cancelled, or even reversed. I would never say that it was
impossible; after all, what is mu-metal but a material engineered and
manufactured by man to increase its permeability several times and which
has the effect of greatly reducing skin depth several times, thus
allowing
for maximum foucault currents even at low frequencies. Could this occur
with diamagnetic materials as well? I will not say no. I am not sure if
it has ever been tried. Could the complete mitigation of skin effect
increase the velocity factor close to c in a vacuum? Maybe. What if you
could actually reverse the skin effect? That gets into the things you
are
thinking about, i.e, smaller antennas. This is well outside the normal
scope of thought but it is interesting to consider the 'what ifs' and
that
sort of thing does not violate Maxwell, it merely extends the
applicability of Maxwell, Lentz etc..

snip
"Please help me out here as I am obviously missing something.
I am referring to a full wave radiator of a dimagnetic material
operating in tank circuit form. During a portion of the cycle
we have eddy currents due to the magnetic field. This magnetic field
is only around for a portion of the time because of the
nature of the material. It is what is happening during this time
that interests me since I theorise that the electric field is
levitating galactic particles. It is during this time I
am trying to understand the status of the inner core.
For instance the skin depth, isn't it changing in thickness?
Is this also producing a void of decaying electrons in the
radiating core etc when there is an absence of a magnetic field
and its absence of a eddy current? I don't want to get into
a standing wave sort of a discussion as the circumstances
*appear to be unknown except what other things are at play.
When the magnetic field has dissapated, a short amount of
time before the capacitor discharges and what happens
when the capacitor discharges. I think we can say that
*the internal structure of the material changes from
uniform to a random directional structure during this time."

My comments:

"During a portion of the cycle
we have eddy currents due to the magnetic field. This magnetic field
is only around for a portion of the time because of the
nature of the material."

Correct, there is an eddy (or foucault) current set up due to the magnetic
field originating from the time varying current from the generator. If the
diagmetic material were water, yes the magnetic field would be 'significant'
for only a small portion of the time, if ever, in a moderate time varying
magnetic field. For strong static magnetic fields, we have seen that
significant eddy curents are set up at the molecular level in water droplets
even to the extent that it can levitate against it gravitational field. I
assume we are not talking about such strong (static) field here; we are
talking about a moderate time varying electromganetic field genrated by a
tank circuit.

"During a portion of the cycle
we have eddy currents due to the magnetic field. This magnetic field
is only around for a portion of the time because of the
nature of the material."

Well, depending on the nature of the diamagnetic material, it may either be
significant or insignificant. Cu is diagmagetic and in that case the
magnetic field always exists in a significant manner to counter the applied
magnetic field. The key here is, what is the nature of the diamagnetic
material?

"It is what is happening during this time
that interests me since I theorise that the electric field is
levitating galactic particles. It is during this time I
am trying to understand the status of the inner core."

Mu-mesons (cosmic rays) are an example of galactic particles. They are
traveling at 0.9c (almost the speed of light) and have the mass of several
electrons. Do you think the e-field of the typical antenna could have a
significant effect on them considering their large momentum? There will
always be some effect I am sure but I'm not so sure it could extend to
stopping such particles and slowing them down so they could be in the
vicinity of the antenna to experience levitation. I am not sure if there are
slower galactic particles or if that is what you are considering in your
model. I know there are several types consisting of electrons, protons,
neutrons protons etc.. but I would think they must be moving at high speed
with a lot of momentum.

"For instance the skin depth, isn't it changing in thickness?
Is this also producing a void of decaying electrons in the
radiating core etc when there is an absence of a magnetic field
and its absence of a eddy current?"

The skin depth does not vary if the frequency remains constant. However, the
current density (for example at skin depth) varies in accordance with the
signal from the generator from max Js to zero. Wiki will give you the
formula for skin depth of a sinusoid and you can see the factors that cause
it to vary; resistivity, frequency and magnetic permeability. Yes, at times
when the magnetic field is absent (zero cross) I am certain something could
be happening at the atomic level of the material in question.

"When the magnetic field has dissapated, a short amount of
time before the capacitor discharges and what happens
when the capacitor discharges. I think we can say that
*the internal structure of the material changes from
uniform to a random directional structure during this time."

If you are talking about a parallel L-C tank circuit antenna, I suspect you
are correct. Again, I believe this would be at the zero cross points. Yes,
at the atomic level the structure must be reacting to the fields imposed
previously.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

.................................................. .......
Thankyou for that well thought out posting.
It was rewarding for me as I can now
discount the possibility of current returning
thru the center of the conductor if ever that
argument ever comes up, as well as making the
radiatiation action much more clearer.
In the case of a fractional wave radiator
the energy storage facilities are obviously
smaller and quickly filled leaving the rest
of the time for the resistance to absorb
all transient energy.When the capacitor
actually discharges there is zero magnetic
field since the inductor is storing the
energy and not releasing it to a magnetic
field.With the electrostatic field being
released and without a contrary magnetic
field particles are now completely free
to levitate and attempt move out of the
arbitary gravitational border.
This very sequence of actions gives
credability to NASA's aproach to removing
moon dust from astronauts outer wear by
subjecting them to a electro static charge.
Fortunately the subject of phantom waves
was not involved and the thread comes to a
succesful completion.
You sir, are a very welcome addition to
this newsgroup and hopefully you can
withstand the abuse given which is usually
the sign of the absence of knoweledge.
My very best regards
Art Unwin....KB9MZ...xg

On 29 Dec, 09:02, art wrote:
On 28 Dec, 22:25, "AI4QJ" wrote:





"art" wrote in message

...
On 26 Dec, 21:33, "AI4QJ" wrote:

"AI4QJ" wrote in message

.. .

"art" wrote in message
...

" To me, this suggests that the return path is
down the center which is resistive only. My prior post
states that it is possible for current flow down the
center of a dimagnetic material which was the case
in a barium cloud.
From the above in then becomes logical that RADIATING
surface length is what counts and thus a helical antenna
must have a counter winding to be resonant AND in equilibrium.
So the main pont is, what exactly stops current travel down
the center of a radiator to conform with every day thinking?"

At AC, it is established knowledge that skin effect takes place in round
diamagnetic conductors such as copper and aluminum. Skin effect happens
as
a result of Lentz's law. From Lentz's law, foucault currents are set up
to
oppose the magnetic field of the AC current sent by the generator. The
result is net forward current existing on the 'skin' of the conductor
with
a net reverse current inside the conductor. Think of the inside of the
conductor as being occuppied by a current moving back towards the
generator that sets up a magnetic field which opposes the magnetic field
from the AC current sent by the generator. So you can see that indeed
there is current flow through the center of the conductor; it will be a
weak current but it is nature's attempt to oppose the change in magnetic
field. I think the situation you are speaking to is having additional
currents through the center that are additive (or subtractive) to the
foucault currents. With proper material selection (such as mu-metal, a
magnetic material of very high permeability), it may be possible to
maximize the foucault currents themselves to nearly cancel the applied
magnetic field ( from the current in the generator). I believe it would
be
truely a pioneering effort to have center currents above and beyond this
value, or cancelled, or even reversed. I would never say that it was
impossible; after all, what is mu-metal but a material engineered and
manufactured by man to increase its permeability several times and which
has the effect of greatly reducing skin depth several times, thus
allowing
for maximum foucault currents even at low frequencies. Could this occur
with diamagnetic materials as well? I will not say no. I am not sure if
it has ever been tried. Could the complete mitigation of skin effect
increase the velocity factor close to c in a vacuum? Maybe. What if you
could actually reverse the skin effect? That gets into the things you
are
thinking about, i.e, smaller antennas. This is well outside the normal
scope of thought but it is interesting to consider the 'what ifs' and
that
sort of thing does not violate Maxwell, it merely extends the
applicability of Maxwell, Lentz etc..

snip
"Please help me out here as I am obviously missing something.
I am referring to a full wave radiator of a dimagnetic material
operating in tank circuit form. During a portion of the cycle
we have eddy currents due to the magnetic field. This magnetic field
is only around for a portion of the time because of the
nature of the material. It is what is happening during this time
that interests me since I theorise that the electric field is
levitating galactic particles. It is during this time I
am trying to understand the status of the inner core.
For instance the skin depth, isn't it changing in thickness?
Is this also producing a void of decaying electrons in the
radiating core etc when there is an absence of a magnetic field
and its absence of a eddy current? I don't want to get into
a standing wave sort of a discussion as the circumstances
*appear to be unknown except what other things are at play.
When the magnetic field has dissapated, a short amount of
time before the capacitor discharges and what happens
when the capacitor discharges. I think we can say that
*the internal structure of the material changes from
uniform to a random directional structure during this time."

My comments:

"During a portion of the cycle
we have eddy currents due to the magnetic field. This magnetic field
is only around for a portion of the time because of the
nature of the material."

Correct, there is an eddy (or foucault) current set up due to the magnetic
field originating from the time varying current from the generator. If the
diagmetic material were water, yes the magnetic field would be 'significant'
for only a small portion of the time, if ever, in a moderate time varying
magnetic field. For strong static magnetic fields, we have seen that
significant eddy curents are set up at the molecular level in water droplets
even to the extent that it can levitate against it gravitational field. I
assume we are not talking about such strong (static) field here; we are
talking about a moderate time varying electromganetic field genrated by a
tank circuit.

"During a portion of the cycle
we have eddy currents due to the magnetic field. This magnetic field
is only around for a portion of the time because of the
nature of the material."

Well, depending on the nature of the diamagnetic material, it may either be
significant or insignificant. Cu is diagmagetic and in that case the
magnetic field always exists in a significant manner to counter the applied
magnetic field. The key here is, what is the nature of the diamagnetic
material?

"It is what is happening during this time
that interests me since I theorise that the electric field is
levitating galactic particles. It is during this time I
am trying to understand the status of the inner core."

Mu-mesons (cosmic rays) are an example of galactic particles. They are
traveling at 0.9c (almost the speed of light) and have the mass of several
electrons. Do you think the e-field of the typical antenna could have a
significant effect on them considering their large momentum? There will
always be some effect I am sure but I'm not so sure it could extend to
stopping such particles and slowing them down so they could be in the
vicinity of the antenna to experience levitation. I am not sure if there are
slower galactic particles or if that is what you are considering in your
model. I know there are several types consisting of electrons, protons,
neutrons protons etc.. but I would think they must be moving at high speed
with a lot of momentum.

"For instance the skin depth, isn't it changing in thickness?
Is this also producing a void of decaying electrons in the
radiating core etc when there is an absence of a magnetic field
and its absence of a eddy current?"

The skin depth does not vary if the frequency remains constant. However, the
current density (for example at skin depth) varies in accordance with the
signal from the generator from max Js to zero. Wiki will give you the
formula for skin depth of a sinusoid and you can see the factors that cause
it to vary; resistivity, frequency and magnetic permeability. Yes, at times
when the magnetic field is absent (zero cross) I am certain something could
be happening at the atomic level of the material in question.

"When the magnetic field has dissapated, a short amount of
time before the capacitor discharges and what happens
when the capacitor discharges. I think we can say that
*the internal structure of the material changes from
uniform to a random directional structure during this time."

If you are talking about a parallel L-C tank circuit antenna, I suspect you
are correct. Again, I believe this would be at the zero cross points. Yes,
at the atomic level the structure must be reacting to the fields imposed
previously.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

.................................................. .......
Thankyou for that well thought out posting.
It was rewarding for me *as I can now
discount the possibility of current returning
thru the center of the conductor if ever that
*argument ever comes up, as well as making the
*radiatiation action much more clearer.
In the case of a fractional wave radiator
the energy storage facilities are obviously
*smaller and quickly filled leaving the rest
of the time for the resistance to absorb
all transient energy.When the capacitor
actually discharges there is zero magnetic
field since the inductor is storing the
energy and not releasing it to a magnetic
*field.With the electrostatic field being
released and without a contrary magnetic
*field particles are now completely free
to levitate and attempt move out of the
arbitary gravitational border.
This very sequence of actions gives
credability to NASA's aproach to removing
moon dust from astronauts outer wear by
subjecting them to a electro static charge.
Fortunately the subject of phantom waves
was not involved and the thread comes to a
succesful completion.
You sir, are a very welcome addition to
this newsgroup and hopefully you can
withstand the abuse given which is usually
the sign of the absence of knoweledge.
My very best regards
Art Unwin....KB9MZ...xg- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OOOOps, I retreated to quickly!
In a fractional wave length antenna the
inductance and capacitance vessels are to
small for a full frequency step of applied
current such that the total resistance of
the system is forced to consume the continueing
energy flow. Naturally the cuurent direction
cannot change and go back thru the resister
leaving only the path down the center of the
radiator to get back to the generator.
If this patheresistance is the same as the
external resistance then mathematically it
doesn't change things. However, it is different
in a very small way thus total radiation
efficiency with respect to unit length can
only be a maximum when the radiator is a multiple
of a wave length long
i.e. in equilibrium as in the Gaussian field.
I think that wraps things up for the theorem.
Regards
Art Unwin ...KB9MZ....XG(uk)