I've got a 130-foot doublet hanging 90 feet up in the air between two
trees. A pulley and a counterweight (a gallon of sand) keeps 20-some
pounds of tension on the line. Not a lot of tension but works great on
non-windy days. If the trees were stronger up at the top I
might try a heavier counterweight, but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable
doing this because I am really hanging from the treetops right now.

The feeder is approx 70 feet of 450-ohm window line (like twin-lead
but with little gaps every so often) to a standoff on the side of the
house. Yesterday when we were having 50MPH gusts this was billowing
out like a sail. I had twisted the window line a while back after the
last big windstorm, and that seemed to mitigate the sailing-ship kind
of effect, but not by a lot.

The counterweight and pulley did a great job of absorbing the wind
gusts. It was really impressive - when the big gusts came up, the
feeder billows out, and the gallon of sand shoots up in the air 30 or
40 feet above its usual position. I'm pretty confident that as long as
the trees didn't fall over in a hurricane, this antenna would stay up.
I even put a real stainless pulley with bronze bearings in, replacing
the one-dollar hardware store pulley, and am happy that I did. I have
seen the one-dollar pulleys get visibly corroded in a year or so on a
previous antenna.

But I'm thinking... if I just used two conductors of #16 copperweld
and some spacers to get true ladder line as opposed to window line,
would this billowing completely disappear, or drop to a tiny tiny
fraction of what it is now? Or would it just continue billowing the
same way?

What's preferable for such homebrew ladder line: solid copperweld,
stranded copperweld, solid copper, stranded copper, ???.

Tim N3QE

Tim Shoppa wrote:
But I'm thinking... if I just used two conductors of #16 copperweld
and some spacers to get true ladder line as opposed to window line,
would this billowing completely disappear, or drop to a tiny tiny
fraction of what it is now? Or would it just continue billowing the
same way?

The billowing depends upon the total surface area exposed
to the wind. It is akin to the wind loading specs for an
antenna. The way I solved the problem with 440 ohm ladder-
line (actually measured 380 ohms) is to buy The Wireman's
#14 stranded copper-clad steel, ladder-line product code
#554. With proper strain relief, that stuff is virtually
indestructible. It even put dents in my wire cutters. :-(

http://thewireman.com/antennap.html#balanced
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

I had a nearly identical antenna to yours, but had instead used W7FG's
600 ohm ladder line. Apparently this has a lot less wind surface area
than your 450 ohm stuff with all that flat plastic between the wires
because I never had the "sailing" effect you had, even in some 75mph
storms recently on the Oregon coast. My stuff just doesn't have ANY flat
surfaces for the wind.

You might consider switching your feedline type.


Ed K7AAT

On Jan 31, 6:34 am, Tim Shoppa wrote:
I've got a 130-foot doublet hanging 90 feet up in the air between two
trees. A pulley and a counterweight (a gallon of sand) keeps 20-some
pounds of tension on the line. Not a lot of tension but works great on
non-windy days. If the trees were stronger up at the top I
might try a heavier counterweight, but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable
doing this because I am really hanging from the treetops right now.

The feeder is approx 70 feet of 450-ohm window line (like twin-lead
but with little gaps every so often) to a standoff on the side of the
house. Yesterday when we were having 50MPH gusts this was billowing
out like a sail. I had twisted the window line a while back after the
last big windstorm, and that seemed to mitigate the sailing-ship kind
of effect, but not by a lot.

The counterweight and pulley did a great job of absorbing the wind
gusts. It was really impressive - when the big gusts came up, the
feeder billows out, and the gallon of sand shoots up in the air 30 or
40 feet above its usual position. I'm pretty confident that as long as
the trees didn't fall over in a hurricane, this antenna would stay up.
I even put a real stainless pulley with bronze bearings in, replacing
the one-dollar hardware store pulley, and am happy that I did. I have
seen the one-dollar pulleys get visibly corroded in a year or so on a
previous antenna.

But I'm thinking... if I just used two conductors of #16 copperweld
and some spacers to get true ladder line as opposed to window line,
would this billowing completely disappear, or drop to a tiny tiny
fraction of what it is now? Or would it just continue billowing the
same way?

What's preferable for such homebrew ladder line: solid copperweld,
stranded copperweld, solid copper, stranded copper, ???.

Tim N3QE

Hi, Tim.
I don't think you will want to use copperweld of any size for open
feed line. The wire will twist on itself in an uncontrollable manner.
Even with closely spaced spreaders, it will still be a mess.

I had then same problem with constantly windy conditions and window
line like you are using. One wire would break about once a year and I
would have to bring the antenna and feedline down and try to find the
break. We don't have real trees here in the Central Oregon desert, so
I use 4 section masts.

When we moved last year to a bigger place, I decided to put up a 160
meter lazy quad or horizontal loop and home brew 600 ohm open line to
feed it at a corner. I am still using 4 section masts, putting the
antenna at about 35 feet, but I used almost 125 ft. of feedline from
the house to the antenna. There are two supporting poles for the
feedline run, plus a rope and pulley for the house end.

I bought a 300 ft. roll of #14 copper motor winding wire on Ebay. It
has nylon or something similar for insulation. I doubled the wire by
tying one end to a fence post and walking out till I hit the end of
the wire, then brought it back to the post and tied it. I wound the
doubled wire back on the reel. I had a bunch of phenolic rods about
1/4 inch in diameter that I cut to 6 1/2 inch length. I drilled a hole
large enough to pass the wire about 1/4" in from each end of a rod.
Then I spent several evenings threading the rods onto the doubled up
copper wire. They were all bunched up together at one end. A real pain
to do!

More evenings were spent in the shop creating the feed line with the
spacers set at about 6' apart. I set a 2X12 plank on saw horses and
the wire and spreaders on one end and an empty take up reel on the
other. Each spreader is tied tightly to the feed line copper by
tightly winding a short length of #26 copper wire on the feed wire,
over the spacer and winding the rest on the other side. A blob of Duco
cement was then spread on the joint. Th section of finished feedline
was wound on the take up reel and then it was done all over again on
the next segment. This is a lot of work, but the old way of soldering
the tie wire to the feedline wasn't practical for this wire.

Eventually all was done and the feedline was installed. It works
quite well and the wind barely moves the feedline. I can detect no
stretching of the copper wire. Your installation may place more weight
on the feedline than mine, but should still work. The soft copper does
not try to twist.

Hope this gives you a little help from actual use.

73's
Paul, KD7HB

wrote:
I don't think you will want to use copperweld of any size for open
feed line. The wire will twist on itself in an uncontrollable manner.
Even with closely spaced spreaders, it will still be a mess.

The Wireman has #14 stranded "copperweld" in the popular
450 ohm ladder-line format.

http://thewireman.com/antennap.html#balanced
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Feb 1, 11:09 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
wrote:
I don't think you will want to use copperweld of any size for open
feed line. The wire will twist on itself in an uncontrollable manner.
Even with closely spaced spreaders, it will still be a mess.

The Wireman has #14 stranded "copperweld" in the popular
450 ohm ladder-line format.

http://thewireman.com/antennap.html#balanced
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Hi, Cecil.
Yes, but this is manufactured and I thought N3QE was wanting to home
brew the feedline. I don't think one person can control two strands of
copperweld while they attach spacers!

Paul, KD7HB

Yes, but this is manufactured and I thought N3QE was wanting to home
brew the feedline. I don't think one person can control two strands of
copperweld while they attach spacers!


It wouldn't be near as difficult if they used spacers such as used
by W7FG in his marketed 600ohm ladderline. For spacers, He uses sections
of stiff plastic cut from tubing used in drip irrigation products, drills
his holes, and then slits the end of the tube down to the hole so all one
has to do is force the wire into the slit and on into the tight hole. No
need for the difficult process of sliding spacers all the length of a
run..... plus a heck of a lot cheaper, too.


Ed K7AAT

On Feb 1, 3:40 pm, "Ed_G" wrote:
Yes, but this is manufactured and I thought N3QE was wanting to home
brew the feedline. I don't think one person can control two strands of
copperweld while they attach spacers!

It wouldn't be near as difficult if they used spacers such as used
by W7FG in his marketed 600ohm ladderline. For spacers, He uses sections
of stiff plastic cut from tubing used in drip irrigation products, drills
his holes, and then slits the end of the tube down to the hole so all one
has to do is force the wire into the slit and on into the tight hole. No
need for the difficult process of sliding spacers all the length of a
run..... plus a heck of a lot cheaper, too.

Ed K7AAT

Absolutely correct! That would have been a lot easier. I even have a
bunch of the tubing I could have used. I had the phenolic rods and
could never find a use for them. For me, the fun of home brewing is
using what is on hand and only purchasing what I can't find at home.

Paul, KD7HB

Cecil Moore wrote:
Paul, KD7HB wrote:
I don't think you will want to use copperweld of any size for open
feed line. The wire will twist on itself in an uncontrollable manner.
Even with closely spaced spreaders, it will still be a mess.

The Wireman has #14 stranded "copperweld" in the popular
450 ohm ladder-line format.

http://thewireman.com/antennap.html#balanced
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

FWIW, Davis RF (http://www.davisrf.com/) has it for less...

Davis RF:
PN = LL450-HD
100 ft = $0.42/ft
100 - 499 ft = $0.39/ft
500 - 999 ft = $0.37/ft
999 ft = $0.35/ft

The Wireman:
PN = 554
100 ft = $0.55/ft
100 - 499 ft = $0.44/ft
500 - 999 ft = $0.418/ft
999 ft = $0.396/ft

However, the OP was interested in rolling his own. Again, Davis RF beats
The Wireman on price.
Description = 14AWG, 19 strand, tinned copper clad steel...

Davis RF:
PN = WM523
100 ft = $0.16/ft
100 - 499 ft = $0.13/ft
500 - 999 ft = $0.12/ft
999 ft = $0.11/ft

The Wireman:
PN = 523
100 ft = $0.19/ft
100 - 499 ft = $0.15/ft
500 - 999 ft = $0.142/ft
999 ft = $0.135/ft

73,
Bryan WA7PRC

On Feb 1, 2:42*pm, " wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:09 am, Cecil Moore wrote:

wrote:
I don't think you will want to use copperweld of any size for open
feed line. The wire will twist on itself in an uncontrollable manner.
Even with closely spaced spreaders, it will still be a mess.

The Wireman has #14 stranded "copperweld" in the popular
450 ohm ladder-line format.

http://thewireman.com/antennap.html#balanced
--
73, Cecil *http://www.w5dxp.com

Hi, Cecil.
Yes, but this is manufactured and I thought N3QE was wanting to home
brew the feedline. I don't think one person can control two strands of
copperweld while they attach spacers!

If I could find a local source, I wouldn't mind too much on missing
out on the homebrewing :-).

But the gotcha here is that I think that what Cecil pointed to on the
Wireman website is window line, not ladder line. And after reading the
comments here I'm pretty sure that it's the webbing in the window line
that causes all the wind load, so that's not what I want.

I have worked with the stranded-copper-clad-steel wires on antenna
projects and they really are a breeze to work with. Not difficult at
all!

#18AWG solid copperweld is manageable... it's got a pretty good memory
of past curls but it doesn't take a lot of tension to make it forget.
#14AWG solid copperweld or bigger... yes, that's a chore to work with
just one conductor, and if I tried two at a time you would find me
wrapped up in a horrible twisted tangle of the stuff.

I do have a local source for stranded-copper-clad-steel and can
certainly homebrew my own insulators. Looks like the way to go!
Although the work of assembling it all makes it sound like it'll take
most of a weekend.

Tim N3QE