"amdx" wrote in message
...
"amdx" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Can someone explain how these two relate in a waveguide.
My limited understanding is, group velocity is slow near cutoff and
increases as frequency increases to almost c.
I don't know the difference between group velocity and phase velocity.
Thanks, Mike

"Josef Matz" wrote in message
...
Group velocity wants to describe a pulse containing more than one photon
frequenccy.

In dispersive media the group velocity is a function of frequency of the
photons that form
a physical signal. So neighboured frequencies have a little different
velocities. That is what is behind.

So group velocity as one uses the terminus in hard physical theory is
nothing else as the true physical velocity at a certain frequency of the
photonic carrier resp. field.

Group velocities of wave packets is something apart from that. If you
have a
carrier that containes
a spectrum of frequencies it describes the broadening of the signal due
to
different carrier frequencies in
which have different velocities.
This definition is therefore unsharp and has only qualitative picturesque
meaning !

So group velocity in a sharp sense is just the real velocity which with
the
field and the photons in move
at and only at a certain frequency.

Josef Matz

I was in a hurry this morning and didn't ask my main question.
I think at this point I understand different frequencies travel at
different speeds.
Group Velocity vs Velocity Factor what is the difference?
If vg = c * sqrt(1 - (f/fc)^2) hmm, maybe I should tell what I think I
know.
(I'm way over my head on this subject).
If I generate a spark ( many frequencies) all these frequencies combine to
make a waveshape, as the wave travels down the waveguide the waveshape
changes because different frequencies are traveling at different speeds?
Correct me as needed.
So is 'group velocity' the velocity the peak of the signal as it travels
down the waveguide?
Thanks, Mike

Ok, guys you helped me get a better understanding without the math, that I
wouldn't
be able to do.
The end point of this information is to initiate a spark pulse at one end
of a
waveguide and pickup the pulse two times. So I'll have two pickups separated
by distance.
The time between the two received pulses is distance times the velocity of
the waveform.
Hence all my questions about vf, vg and vp.
Any added thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks, Mike
p.s. I have someone that can do all the maths, I just want a better
understanding
of what's happening.

"amdx" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
"amdx" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Can someone explain how these two relate in a waveguide.
My limited understanding is, group velocity is slow near cutoff and
increases as frequency increases to almost c.
I don't know the difference between group velocity and phase
velocity.
Thanks, Mike

"Josef Matz" wrote in message
...
Group velocity wants to describe a pulse containing more than one photon
frequenccy.

In dispersive media the group velocity is a function of frequency of
the
photons that form
a physical signal. So neighboured frequencies have a little different
velocities. That is what is behind.

So group velocity as one uses the terminus in hard physical theory is
nothing else as the true physical velocity at a certain frequency of the
photonic carrier resp. field.

Group velocities of wave packets is something apart from that. If you
have
a
carrier that containes
a spectrum of frequencies it describes the broadening of the signal due
to
different carrier frequencies in
which have different velocities.
This definition is therefore unsharp and has only qualitative
picturesque
meaning !

So group velocity in a sharp sense is just the real velocity which with
the
field and the photons in move
at and only at a certain frequency.

Josef Matz

I was in a hurry this morning and didn't ask my main question.
I think at this point I understand different frequencies travel at
different
speeds.
Group Velocity vs Velocity Factor what is the difference?
If vg = c * sqrt(1 - (f/fc)^2) hmm, maybe I should tell what I think I
know.
(I'm way over my head on this subject).
If I generate a spark ( many frequencies) all these frequencies combine
to
make a waveshape, as the wave travels down the waveguide the waveshape
changes because different frequencies are traveling at different speeds?
Correct me as needed.
So is 'group velocity' the velocity the peak of the signal as it travels
down the waveguide?
Forgive my ignorance but the formula vg = c * sqrt(1 - (f/fc)^2) doesn't
work for me. (1-(f/fc)^2) is negative and I can't get the sqrt of a
negative. What did I miss?
Thanks, Mike






I have seen that at Nimtz too. He modifies the dispersion relation. Since i
have not seen that before
i just can say that light having this dispersion relation does not obey the
wave equation but a more general equation which is called Klein - Gordon
equation. So it is not elliptic polarized light.
Such light can also move in homogene waves but with velocities less than c
and be frozen at f =fc.
For f fc you get inhomogene waves and those can tunnel almost instant.
Thats proof too.

But whats fc ? I dint know.

So i am going after that, my trial to find out something is that it light
where the ellipse of elliptic polrized light
rotates or in other words the field takes a screw. But ok i am not shure
about that last now.

Josef

Mike wrote:
"Group Velocity and Velocity factor - Can someone explain how these two
relate in a waveguide."

Group velocity differs from phase velocity (which is defined as the
velocity at which a point of constant phase is propagated in a
progressive sinusoidal wave). Group velocity implies several transmitted
sinusoidal waves for which the medium has a velocity factor that is a
function of frequency.

Waveguides are used over limited frequency ranges so that their
dimensions exclude propagation of any but the dominant mode, and so that
the operating frequency is sufficiently above the low-frequency cutoff
of the guide to avoid excessive attenuation. The limited tange of
frequencies transmitted through a waveguide assures a group velocity
ahich equals the phase velocity and thus assures low attenuation.

Terman explains the above in his treatment of "Rectangular Waveguides"
which begins on page 128 of his 1955 opus.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI