A few weeks ago, I asked about generating an 140kHz electric field
across a leaf, part of a bio-med lab. Thanks for the answers. But it
turns out I misread the roster and was in the wrong group.

What I ACTUALLY NEED to do is generate a 100kHz electric field, at
1v/cm, across a T-Bone steak, to measure whether it retards or
accelerates decomposition over time. The hypothesis is that the e-field
retards growth of certain bacteria inside the meat.

By design, we have not been instructed exactly how to construct the
methods and apparatus. I have at my disposal a function generator and
various amplifiers.

It is a gross oversimplification to just connect one wire to one end of
the steak, and another wire at the other end, and apply 20V RMS across a
20cm steak to generate 1V/cm?

Thanks. Sorry about the idiot questions.

On Sep 5, 1:00*pm, Jon Mcleod wrote:
A few weeks ago, I asked about generating an 140kHz electric field
across a leaf, part of a bio-med lab. *Thanks for the answers. *But it
turns out I misread the roster and was in the wrong group.

What I ACTUALLY NEED to do is generate a 100kHz electric field, at
1v/cm, across a T-Bone steak, to measure whether it retards or
accelerates decomposition over time. *The hypothesis is that the e-field
retards growth of certain bacteria inside the meat.

By design, we have not been instructed exactly how to construct the
methods and apparatus. *I have at my disposal a function generator and
various amplifiers.

It is a gross oversimplification to just connect one wire to one end of
the steak, and another wire at the other end, and apply 20V RMS across a
20cm steak to generate 1V/cm?

Thanks. *Sorry about the idiot questions.

What you are refering to is the induction process as applied to
present day induction cookers
available in stors for the general consumer
Best regards
Art

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 14:00:52 -0400, Jon Mcleod
wrote:

A few weeks ago, I asked about generating an 140kHz electric field
across a leaf, part of a bio-med lab. Thanks for the answers. But it
turns out I misread the roster and was in the wrong group.

What I ACTUALLY NEED to do is generate a 100kHz electric field, at
1v/cm, across a T-Bone steak, to measure whether it retards or
accelerates decomposition over time. The hypothesis is that the e-field
retards growth of certain bacteria inside the meat.

A pretty shabby hypothesis.

By design, we have not been instructed exactly how to construct the
methods and apparatus. I have at my disposal a function generator and
various amplifiers.

It is a gross oversimplification to just connect one wire to one end of
the steak, and another wire at the other end, and apply 20V RMS across a
20cm steak to generate 1V/cm?

Yes it is a gross oversimplification. What are your controls?

Thanks. Sorry about the idiot questions.

Hi Jon,

It has been historically proven that the e-fields of 60 Hz current
across the ribs of convicts, over time (about several minutes)
seriously accelerates decomposition. Sterilization would naturally
follow too answering the point about bacteria growth. Between those
two obvious observations, it would seem you have a conflicting agenda.
The hypothesis you are testing seems to want to simultaneously
challenge and support longstanding evidence through shifting frequency
without actually specifying how MUCH current should be applied. Thus
the hypothesis devolves to: "How does frequency enter into what has
already been observed?"

Let me point out that this, too, already has longstanding evidence of
doing pretty much offering the same outcome; and the state, for the
sake of economy, has long since abandoned the hypothesis of performing
executions with 100KHz electric chairs.

To put it simply, you have to many unstated and unfulfilled variables
to call your proposal a hypothesis.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Art Unwin wrote:

What you are refering to is the induction process as applied to
present day induction cookers
available in stors for the general consumer
Best regards

Actually, no, the induction cooker uses a much stronger field. This is
a low voltage field (1v/cm) that doesn't cook (or heat) the steak.
Supposedly it disrupts internal structures inside bacteria when they try
to divide, at least so goes the hypothesis.

On Sep 5, 1:27*pm, Jon Mcleod wrote:
Art Unwin wrote:
What you are refering to is the induction process as applied to
present day induction cookers
available in stors for the general consumer
Best regards

Actually, no, the induction cooker uses a much stronger field. *This is
a low voltage field (1v/cm) that doesn't cook (or heat) the steak.
Supposedly it disrupts internal structures inside bacteria when they try
to divide, at least so goes the hypothesis.

Well you are partly correct.If the heating section is not fully
resonant and a time varying current is applied
Then you attain a position where radiation is retarded and replaced by
heat. If the heating section
is resonant then the applied time varying current will only supply the
energy to overcome friction and where all the rest
is radiation. The equivalent electrical circuit is known as a Tank
circuit where applied energy
only replaces the friction involved in the continuos movement of
charges backwards and
forwards between the inductor and the capacitor in a near perpetual
motion..
So in the correct circumstances only a bare minimum of heat is
generated and where
the rest of the energy goes to provide radiation a well known
attribute created for sterelization found by Madame Curie
of France
Cheers
Art

Richard Clark wrote:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 14:00:52 -0400, Jon Mcleod
wrote:

A few weeks ago, I asked about generating an 140kHz electric field
across a leaf, part of a bio-med lab. Thanks for the answers. But it
turns out I misread the roster and was in the wrong group.

What I ACTUALLY NEED to do is generate a 100kHz electric field, at
1v/cm, across a T-Bone steak, to measure whether it retards or
accelerates decomposition over time. The hypothesis is that the e-field
retards growth of certain bacteria inside the meat.

A pretty shabby hypothesis.

By design, we have not been instructed exactly how to construct the
methods and apparatus. I have at my disposal a function generator and
various amplifiers.

It is a gross oversimplification to just connect one wire to one end of
the steak, and another wire at the other end, and apply 20V RMS across a
20cm steak to generate 1V/cm?

Yes it is a gross oversimplification. What are your controls?

Thanks. Sorry about the idiot questions.

Hi Jon,

It has been historically proven that the e-fields of 60 Hz current
across the ribs of convicts, over time (about several minutes)
seriously accelerates decomposition. Sterilization would naturally
follow too answering the point about bacteria growth. Between those
two obvious observations, it would seem you have a conflicting agenda.
The hypothesis you are testing seems to want to simultaneously
challenge and support longstanding evidence through shifting frequency
without actually specifying how MUCH current should be applied. Thus
the hypothesis devolves to: "How does frequency enter into what has
already been observed?"

Let me point out that this, too, already has longstanding evidence of
doing pretty much offering the same outcome; and the state, for the
sake of economy, has long since abandoned the hypothesis of performing
executions with 100KHz electric chairs.

To put it simply, you have to many unstated and unfulfilled variables
to call your proposal a hypothesis.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Mr. Clark,

The control is another steak is similar size from the same grocery
packaging, placed in a second apparatus that is not powered.

The idea is that a certain frequencies of low-voltage e-fields inhibit
cellular mitosis.

The professor saw an article in Science magazine about treating cancer
with these fields, and decided it would be a nice lab activity for his
students to observe other effects with this type of field.

http://www.rife.de/files/disruption_...eplication.pdf

Since generating an e-field in "meat" or "plant material" is not so
easy, this is part of the assignment. We need to figure it out and then
fully describe it in our methods section. The leaf people are using
high-voltage insulated wires. With "meat", which is larger, I don't
think this will work. I am wondering if I can use a low-voltage direct
connection.

My problem is that our group is weak on electromagnetism. They have
been floundering, and now I am floundering with them. I have some
ideas, but ideas are best vetted through those with PRACTICAL
experience, which you guys seem to have. I have also wasted almost 2
weeks by sitting in the wrong group. OK I am an idiot in terms of BOTH
electromagnetism and reading directions.

Bottom line: I need to generate a 1V/cm field across a t-bone steak.
Merit or no merit (this is college). Does anyone have any place I might
look on line, or any book I might buy, or any advice on how I might
accomplish this?

Thank you.

"Jon Mcleod" wrote in message
m...
Richard Clark wrote:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 14:00:52 -0400, Jon Mcleod
wrote:

A few weeks ago, I asked about generating an 140kHz electric field
across a leaf, part of a bio-med lab. Thanks for the answers. But it
turns out I misread the roster and was in the wrong group.

What I ACTUALLY NEED to do is generate a 100kHz electric field, at
1v/cm, across a T-Bone steak, to measure whether it retards or
accelerates decomposition over time. The hypothesis is that the e-field
retards growth of certain bacteria inside the meat.

A pretty shabby hypothesis.

By design, we have not been instructed exactly how to construct the
methods and apparatus. I have at my disposal a function generator and
various amplifiers.

It is a gross oversimplification to just connect one wire to one end of
the steak, and another wire at the other end, and apply 20V RMS across a
20cm steak to generate 1V/cm?

Yes it is a gross oversimplification. What are your controls?

Thanks. Sorry about the idiot questions.

Hi Jon,

It has been historically proven that the e-fields of 60 Hz current
across the ribs of convicts, over time (about several minutes)
seriously accelerates decomposition. Sterilization would naturally
follow too answering the point about bacteria growth. Between those
two obvious observations, it would seem you have a conflicting agenda.
The hypothesis you are testing seems to want to simultaneously
challenge and support longstanding evidence through shifting frequency
without actually specifying how MUCH current should be applied. Thus
the hypothesis devolves to: "How does frequency enter into what has
already been observed?" Let me point out that this, too, already has
longstanding evidence of
doing pretty much offering the same outcome; and the state, for the
sake of economy, has long since abandoned the hypothesis of performing
executions with 100KHz electric chairs.

To put it simply, you have to many unstated and unfulfilled variables
to call your proposal a hypothesis.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Mr. Clark,

The control is another steak is similar size from the same grocery
packaging, placed in a second apparatus that is not powered.

The idea is that a certain frequencies of low-voltage e-fields inhibit
cellular mitosis.

The professor saw an article in Science magazine about treating cancer
with these fields, and decided it would be a nice lab activity for his
students to observe other effects with this type of field.

http://www.rife.de/files/disruption_...eplication.pdf

Since generating an e-field in "meat" or "plant material" is not so easy,
this is part of the assignment. We need to figure it out and then fully
describe it in our methods section. The leaf people are using
high-voltage insulated wires. With "meat", which is larger, I don't think
this will work. I am wondering if I can use a low-voltage direct
connection.

My problem is that our group is weak on electromagnetism. They have been
floundering, and now I am floundering with them. I have some ideas, but
ideas are best vetted through those with PRACTICAL experience, which you
guys seem to have. I have also wasted almost 2 weeks by sitting in the
wrong group. OK I am an idiot in terms of BOTH electromagnetism and
reading directions.

Bottom line: I need to generate a 1V/cm field across a t-bone steak. Merit
or no merit (this is college). Does anyone have any place I might look on
line, or any book I might buy, or any advice on how I might accomplish
this?

Thank you.

the problem is, do you want the field 'inside' the meat, or in the air
around the meat? The problem is made harder because the steak is not only a
dielectric material, which changes the magnitude of the field, but is also
moderately conductive, which essentially shorts out the field. also, the
properties depend on the direction of the field... you might want to see if
your library has this article:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freea...rnumber=300250 . personally
i would probably go the other way and suspend the meat on an insulating net
horizontally and put a plate above and below it that are bigger than the
steak. it is much easier to generate a uniform field between large parallel
conductive plates than with wires... as a first approximation make the
plates about double the largest dimension of the steak. it may be
acceptible to set the steak on one of the plates (sterilize it first) and
just suspend the other one above it.

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 14:42:31 -0400, Jon Mcleod
wrote:

Mr. Clark,

The control is another steak is similar size from the same grocery
packaging, placed in a second apparatus that is not powered.

The idea is that a certain frequencies of low-voltage e-fields inhibit
cellular mitosis.

The professor saw an article in Science magazine about treating cancer
with these fields, and decided it would be a nice lab activity for his
students to observe other effects with this type of field.

http://www.rife.de/files/disruption_...eplication.pdf

Hi Jon,

Let's examine the hypothesis of "low-voltage e-fields" in light of the
source:
In Vitro Experimental Set Up. Cultures were grown in standard
culture dishes (4-well cell culture chambers; SN 138121; Nalge
Nunc International). The TTFields were generated by pairs of
15-mm-long, completely insulated wires (P/N K-30–1000; VT
Corporation; outer diameter, 0.5 mm; ethylene tetrafluoroethylene
insulation thickness, 0.125 mm; dielectric breakdown,
1800 V/mil) fixed to the bottom of each dish at a distance of 1 mm
from each other. The wires were connected to an oscillator
(GFG8219A; Instek) and a high-voltage amplifier (A303; A. A. Lab
Systems Ltd.) that generated the required sine-wave signals
(range, 300-800 V).

This would equate to an average of 5,500V/cM or roughly 275kV across
the chest of a convict. History reveals that this prisoner would be
specially prepared with conductive paste and electrodes that were NOT
insulated (such as specified in your source). Thus we have two
differences:
1. Frequency (100KHz vs. 60 Hz);
2. Insulation;
3. Application (in situ vs. in vitro).

Since generating an e-field in "meat" or "plant material" is not so
easy, this is part of the assignment. We need to figure it out and then
fully describe it in our methods section. The leaf people are using
high-voltage insulated wires. With "meat", which is larger, I don't
think this will work. I am wondering if I can use a low-voltage direct
connection.

You would then be changing the conditions from testing fields to
testing conduction. Ask yourself, if faced with the prospects of
sitting in the electric chair, would you care to amend the conditions
to include insulative pads at all points that formerly contacted the
seat? Your rational answer would suggest you already know you are
redefining expectations.

My problem is that our group is weak on electromagnetism. They have
been floundering, and now I am floundering with them. I have some
ideas, but ideas are best vetted through those with PRACTICAL
experience, which you guys seem to have. I have also wasted almost 2
weeks by sitting in the wrong group. OK I am an idiot in terms of BOTH
electromagnetism and reading directions.

Bottom line: I need to generate a 1V/cm field across a t-bone steak.
Merit or no merit (this is college). Does anyone have any place I might
look on line, or any book I might buy, or any advice on how I might
accomplish this?

You stick to the source if you want a good grade. To replicate the
experiment, you have to conform exactly to the conditions, but not
necessarily the means.

It follows from shallow reading (speaking of my own efforts, not
yours) that there is not much current flowing (otherwise this would
immediately place us in the chair with the convict). This is to your
advantage. You use the function generator you have, apply it to what
is called a step-up transformer to obtain the voltage specified; and
you come very close to the original conditions. Your function
generator should have enough power to both step-up and supply the low
current (you will have to confirm this through other means). You will
have to use a small portion of meat because this is an e-field
experiment that is measured in volt/meter. Choosing a T-Bone
exacerbates your voltage problem, and making a direct connection
invalidates it.

Almost any insulated wire will perform adequately, the source is
simply providing information for you to choose a suitable alternative,
it is not necessary to find the exact reel of wire from a specific
manufacturer. Google for the topic "100 KHz voltage transformer" and
you will find a design that shows you how to construct one within an
hour of obtaining the cheap components. It is merely a matter of
ratios (how much voltage out of your function generator, and how much
do you need?). This, of course, requires you to have a voltmeter that
measures voltage at that frequency.

Go to the EE department and visit their second year circuits lab.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Dave wrote:

the problem is, do you want the field 'inside' the meat, or in the air
around the meat? The problem is made harder because the steak is not only a
dielectric material, which changes the magnitude of the field, but is also
moderately conductive, which essentially shorts out the field. also, the
properties depend on the direction of the field... you might want to see if
your library has this article:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freea...rnumber=300250 . personally
i would probably go the other way and suspend the meat on an insulating net
horizontally and put a plate above and below it that are bigger than the
steak. it is much easier to generate a uniform field between large parallel
conductive plates than with wires... as a first approximation make the
plates about double the largest dimension of the steak. it may be
acceptible to set the steak on one of the plates (sterilize it first) and
just suspend the other one above it.

Thank you! In hindsight, obviously applying a field top to bottom will
be easier than side-to-side!

I need to research it, but I should be able to calculate the voltage
required to generate the 1v/cm field in the steak if I know the
dielectric constant of the "meat"...

One question, what if the plates both touch the steak and I use a
smaller voltage? I guess since steak is conductive, keeping the plates
at a 1V/cm potential may actually sink a lot of current through the
steak and cook it after all.

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 18:53:53 GMT, "Dave" wrote:

The problem is made harder because the steak is not only a
dielectric material, which changes the magnitude of the field, but is also
moderately conductive, which essentially shorts out the field.

Hi Jon, through Dave,

Let's examine what is offered above, and the fault in a large T-Bone.

The original work was performed with an average of 550V across a gap
of 1mm which contained a sample of cells. Those cells, too, shorted
out the voltage, but across a shorter distance.

Most function generators will only source several volts at best, let's
call it 5.5V to simplify comparisons. We replicate the field
arrangement with a 10cM portion of steak. When we revisit the field
strength, we will find it has plunged from the normalized 550,000V/m
of the original work to the now feeble 55V/m or 4 orders of magnitude
lower field of your suggested work.

It would follow from the original author's thesis that your efforts
will show 4 orders of magnitude less results. Call it zero. There's
no point in doing it without replicating the fields as specified in
the original.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC