On Sep 9, 1:51*pm, "JB" wrote:
"Cecil Moore" wrote in message

...

JB wrote:
I used to work
Austrailia daily with 5 watts FM into a dipole DFQ.

The 10m repeaters make it all the more interesting.
--
73, Cecil *http://www.w5dxp.com

You mean the QRM from co-channel repeaters in Australia, New York, Hawaii,
Virgin Islands, Florida and San Diego on the same PL? *Gee, you could trash
a whole band with repeaters just so everyone could have their own kerchunk.

Gosh, QRM on 10? Up on the FM side close to 30 where repeaters are
used, which is hardly even used in the high portion of the cycle, I
have never heard enough stations to cause QRM! In fact I have only
heard just a few repeaters there since the early nineties.

Tell you what: Better the band is full of ham kerchunkers and being
used than not being used by hams at all. As I recall, demand by the CB
services is what caused us to lose 11m and it also could cause us to
lose 10m. Ten meters reminds me of Lake Superior in Wisconsin some
years after the opening of the St. Lawrence seaway. Lake Superior was
a thriving resource fishery at one time for lake perch and lake trout.
The opening of the seaway brought in the sea lamprey which killed all
the fish. With no fish, even the the lampreys died. By the 1970's,
Lake Superior was like an empty aquarium: No fish, clean and clear.
Unused. Empty and and unused like 10 meters today.

wrote in message
...
On Sep 9, 1:51 pm, "JB" wrote:
"Cecil Moore" wrote in message

...

JB wrote:
I used to work
Austrailia daily with 5 watts FM into a dipole DFQ.

The 10m repeaters make it all the more interesting.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

You mean the QRM from co-channel repeaters in Australia, New York, Hawaii,
Virgin Islands, Florida and San Diego on the same PL? Gee, you could trash
a whole band with repeaters just so everyone could have their own
kerchunk.

Gosh, QRM on 10? Up on the FM side close to 30 where repeaters are
used, which is hardly even used in the high portion of the cycle, I
have never heard enough stations to cause QRM! In fact I have only
heard just a few repeaters there since the early nineties.

I guess your radio's numb then. When the sunspot cycle kicks in it happens
every day. Skip causes way too much QRM because of PL duplication. It was
bread and butter for the radio company because so many customers would
complain and complain and complain about "other people using their
frequency" and they couldn't block them out with the mic hanger. Lots of
commercial users left low band FM for VHF and above because of that and
because a gain antenna needs to be so big that they don't last a year at a
repeater site. Ten and 11 meters is considered to be useless because the
daytime absorption is so bad it limits range to worthless. FCC made a
mistake to put CB on 11 if they didn't mean for them to play skip. And if
it weren't for modified CB's we wouldn't have a problem with interlopers at
all. As far as I know, most of the Ham Bands are useless for commercial
exploitation either because they are too small of a block like 220 was, or
because they aren't in the propagation sweet spot for a particular usage.
Hence, they are left to HAMS to experiment and toy with.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be vigilant and fight tooth and nail when
some idiot tries to sell somebody onto our bands. The real shame is that we
LET GO of half of 220 just because UPS asked for it, and because a bunch of
newbie no-code techs that flooded 2 meters at the time had convinced
themselves FCC might cut 2 meters if they couldn't have 220. They were even
crying to "take 440 if you have to, just spare 2 meters". If it weren't
for that NOISE, the FCC might have simply denied the petition on
recommendations from those in the know. So the Ham repeaters and control
links that were on 220 either had to go away or move to 2 and 440 anyway.
That was a boondoggle for everyone involved since most wanted to go to 800
anyway. It's been a money LOSER for everyone that invested in it. Now Hams
can't get it back because there are a few ACSSB systems still there that
customers got stuck with.

On Sep 10, 3:11*pm, "JB" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Sep 9, 1:51 pm, "JB" wrote: "Cecil Moore" wrote in message

.. .

JB wrote:
I used to work
Austrailia daily with 5 watts FM into a dipole DFQ.

The 10m repeaters make it all the more interesting.
--
73, Cecilhttp://www.w5dxp.com

You mean the QRM from co-channel repeaters in Australia, New York, Hawaii,
Virgin Islands, Florida and San Diego on the same PL? Gee, you could trash
a whole band with repeaters just so everyone could have their own

kerchunk.

Gosh, QRM on 10? Up on the FM side close to 30 where repeaters are
used, which is hardly even used in the high portion of the cycle, I
have never heard enough stations to cause QRM! In fact I have only
heard just a few repeaters there since the early nineties.

I guess your radio's numb then. *When the sunspot cycle kicks in it happens
every day. *Skip causes way too much QRM because of PL duplication. *It was
bread and butter for the radio company because so many customers would
complain and complain and complain about "other people using their
frequency" and they couldn't block them out with the mic hanger. *Lots of
commercial users left low band FM for VHF and above because of that and
because a gain antenna needs to be so big that they don't last a year at a
repeater site. *Ten and 11 meters is considered to be useless because the
daytime absorption is so bad it limits range to worthless. * FCC made a
mistake to put CB on 11 if they didn't mean for them to play skip. *And if
it weren't for modified CB's we wouldn't have a problem with interlopers at
all. *As far as I know, most of the Ham Bands are useless for commercial
exploitation either because they are too small of a block like 220 was, or
because they aren't in the propagation sweet spot for a particular usage.
Hence, they are left to HAMS to experiment and toy with.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be vigilant and fight tooth and nail when
some idiot tries to sell somebody onto our bands. *The real shame is that we
LET GO of half of 220 just because UPS asked for it, and because a bunch of
newbie no-code techs that flooded 2 meters at the time had convinced
themselves FCC might cut 2 meters if they couldn't have 220. *They were even
crying to "take 440 if you have to, just spare 2 meters". * If it weren't
for that NOISE, the FCC might have simply denied the petition on
recommendations from those in the know. *So the Ham repeaters and control
links that were on 220 either had to go away or move to 2 and 440 anyway.
That was a boondoggle for everyone involved since most wanted to go to 800
anyway. *It's been a money LOSER for everyone that invested in it. *Now Hams
can't get it back because there are a few ACSSB systems still there that
customers got stuck with.

How do we want to use 10m?

1. Use it all the time similar to 2m using repeaters and some simplex,
or
2. Use it for DX but only during solar peaks which may be present for
3-4 years out of every 11 year cycle?

There are plenty of illegit users on our highways who use it for 1.
above. Purist hams prefer 2..More of the illegits than purists! If we
abandon the band for 7-8 out of every 11 years, you can be sure
someone will try to take it away, Think of all the channels they could
add with an extra 2 MHz. Think of the added commerce for Galaxy, Cobra
and even Uniden at the truckstops across the USA. Truth be told, 10m
most of the time is more suited for 2m style operation than 20m style,
again, most of the time.

How do we want to use 10m?

1. Use it all the time similar to 2m using repeaters and some simplex,
or
2. Use it for DX but only during solar peaks which may be present for
3-4 years out of every 11 year cycle?

There are plenty of illegit users on our highways who use it for 1.
above. Purist hams prefer 2..More of the illegits than purists! If we
abandon the band for 7-8 out of every 11 years, you can be sure
someone will try to take it away, Think of all the channels they could
add with an extra 2 MHz. Think of the added commerce for Galaxy, Cobra
and even Uniden at the truckstops across the USA. Truth be told, 10m
most of the time is more suited for 2m style operation than 20m style,
again, most of the time.

Again, 10 and to a great extent 6 also, are unreliable 7 to 8 years out of
the 11 because of the skip. As for the interlopers, When the band is down,
they will be using it, we won't know about it because we can't hear them and
they can't hear us even if we ARE using it. In fact we usually can't hear
each other when we are using it so how can you say it isn't being used.
When the band is up, then we can do something about it, but what good does
it do to trash the band with uncontrolled repeaters, so that we can't use it
either.

The thing is, it is a doable thing, but most people aren't doing it right.
You got to think ahead, think of the other Hams, and ask questions. Never
be afraid to ask as many different people because the only people who aren't
humbled are the newbies that think they know it all, but haven't done it
yet.

Actually, I'm all for remote bases in lieu of repeaters because when the
band is up, everyone forgets to shut down their repeaters so people can use
the frequency. Fully automated stations render us all obsolete. Another
possibility is to use Touch Tone Access to activate the repeater, which will
time out after 10 minutes or so if no one is using it, and forced TT
shutdown as well. This allows usage without leaving it to thrash by itself.

Antennas are a big problem. If you have mountain tops, Ice, snow and wind
kill antennas a lot and the large 6 and 10m antennas are by far the worst.
Several groups have 6 and 10 but every time they get around to replacing the
antenna, it's cool for a few months then it all goes down for a couple of
years until someone finds a good deal again.

If you don't have mountain tops, you are just as well to use VOIP links to
different home stations all over. This is like how FCC and Coast Guard
operate. They have base stations all over that they can dial into remotely.
There are actually several Multi-Band, Multi-mode Ham stations already
around that you can get in on with the right software and DSL line. You can
put yours on line too. Google TS-2000 remote and look into that.

Look up IRLP too because there are repeaters and remote bases that can be
controlled via IRLP from all over the world and some have 10 and 6
capabilities. Keep an eye on the beacon stations too or monitor 29.6 FM
for band openings because that is where it's at. If you do have a
multi-band mobile you CAN always QSY to 10 for local stuff too. Don't
expect that to chase off any interlopers in the next town though.

JB wrote:
How do we want to use 10m?

1. Use it all the time similar to 2m using repeaters and some simplex,
or
2. Use it for DX but only during solar peaks which may be present for
3-4 years out of every 11 year cycle?

Repeaters are normally FM, only legal from
29.51 - 29.7 MHz. What about 28.0 - 29.51 MHz?

10m simplex is not very attractive or functional
during the low of the sun spot cycle. That's why
it is not much being used today.

From 1650 to 1700, the sun went without sunspots.
It could happen again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sunspot_Numbers.png
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Sep 11, 1:28*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
JB wrote:
How do we want to use 10m?

1. Use it all the time similar to 2m using repeaters and some simplex,
or
2. Use it for DX but only during solar peaks which may be present for
3-4 years out of every 11 year cycle?

Repeaters are normally FM, only legal from
29.51 - 29.7 MHz. What about 28.0 - 29.51 MHz?

10m simplex is not very attractive or functional
during the low of the sun spot cycle. That's why
it is not much being used today.

Well, I think that's cuz activity in general has been
declining. But 10m used to be very popular for
local use in this area, sunspots or not.
I imagine there are a few still out there, but I haven't
been on there myself much lately to know.

Repeaters are normally FM, only legal from
29.51 - 29.7 MHz. What about 28.0 - 29.51 MHz?

That was the point. I was explaining why you shouldn't open up a lot more
of the band to repeaters

10m simplex is not very attractive or functional
during the low of the sun spot cycle. That's why
it is not much being used today.

Well, I think that's cuz activity in general has been
declining. But 10m used to be very popular for
local use in this area, sunspots or not.
I imagine there are a few still out there, but I haven't
been on there myself much lately to know.

When the bands are down, activity is fairly local
I guess I didn't make it clear that you can't make blanket statements about
activity on the band just because you don't hear anything.
Did anyone read my post?

"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...
Centuries past there was a cold spell on Earth where it is stated
radiation propagation did not occur because of the lack of sun spot
observations. This period lasted about 30 years if my memory is
correct.
Now we appear to be in a state of global warming presumably because of
the actions of the Suns vibrancy which would suggest the present
increase in sunspot activity of the past century will continue to
increase and the next Sun spot cycle will be a good one. So don't give
up on antenna experiments just yet as the particulates will be a
coming
Art KB9MZ...xg

See

http://members.optushome.com.au/vk6y...olarcycles.htm