I can easily see myself as being viewed as an "unwashed ham" on this
newsgroup !
I am still of the belief that on a fractional wave antenna the current
travels on both the outside
and the inside of the radiator. This puts me in opposition to the
multitude of "washed" hams
who resist change even tho as yet I have not been proved as being in
error.
I suppose a "washed" ham is one who is of the opinion that "all is
known about antennas" and thus
"change" is to be avoided.
At the moment the consensus seems to be that current only flows on the
outside of a radiator as an open circuit where-as a few say the power
jumps from the end of the antennas to ground to complete a circuit.
One would tend to think that a newsgroup of "washed" hams would be
able to supply the definitive answer in line with "all is known".
Points to consider,
A fractional wavelength antenna is NOT in a state of equi;ibrium
( balanced forces if you prefer)
where a full wave radiator IS in a state of equilibrium ( balanced
forces where the sum of which equals zero) and all laws are based on a
state of equilibrium per classical physics
Best regards
Art

welcome back art, glad you are still around or it could be a long cold
winter! i definately look forward to your rediculous theories to give me a
good laugh now and then. once the current flows back down inside the
antenna element, where does it go?

"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...
I can easily see myself as being viewed as an "unwashed ham" on this
newsgroup !
I am still of the belief that on a fractional wave antenna the current
travels on both the outside
and the inside of the radiator. This puts me in opposition to the
multitude of "washed" hams
who resist change even tho as yet I have not been proved as being in
error.
I suppose a "washed" ham is one who is of the opinion that "all is
known about antennas" and thus
"change" is to be avoided.
At the moment the consensus seems to be that current only flows on the
outside of a radiator as an open circuit where-as a few say the power
jumps from the end of the antennas to ground to complete a circuit.
One would tend to think that a newsgroup of "washed" hams would be
able to supply the definitive answer in line with "all is known".
Points to consider,
A fractional wavelength antenna is NOT in a state of equi;ibrium
( balanced forces if you prefer)
where a full wave radiator IS in a state of equilibrium ( balanced
forces where the sum of which equals zero) and all laws are based on a
state of equilibrium per classical physics
Best regards
Art

On Oct 31, 4:09*pm, "Dave" wrote:
welcome back art, glad you are still around or it could be a long cold
winter! *i definately look forward to your rediculous theories to give me a
good laugh now and then. *once the current flows back down inside the
antenna element, where does it go?

"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...

I can easily see myself as being viewed as an "unwashed ham" on this
newsgroup !
I am still of the belief that on a fractional wave antenna the current
travels on both the outside
and the inside of the radiator. This puts me in opposition to the
multitude of "washed" *hams
who resist change even tho as yet I have not been proved as being in
error.
I suppose a "washed" ham is one who is of the opinion that "all is
known about antennas" and thus
"change" is to be avoided.
At the moment the consensus seems to be that current only flows on the
outside of a radiator as an open circuit where-as a few say the power
jumps from the end of the antennas to ground to complete a circuit.
One would tend to think that a newsgroup of "washed" hams would be
able to supply the definitive answer in line with "all is known".
Points to consider,
A fractional wavelength antenna is NOT in a state of equi;ibrium
( balanced forces if you prefer)
where a full wave radiator IS in a state of equilibrium ( balanced
forces where the sum of which equals zero) and all laws are based on a
state of equilibrium per classical physics
Best regards
Art

So you accept that current flows down the center ?
Knowing that you should be able to answer your own question !
Unless you to are an "unwashed" ham
Art

On Oct 31, 1:40*pm, Art Unwin wrote:
I can easily see myself as being viewed as an "unwashed ham" on this
newsgroup !
I hope you use a good deodorant. :/

I am still of the belief that on a fractional wave antenna the current
travels on both the outside
and the inside of the radiator.
It's a free country. But skin effect knows no boundaries I'm
afraid.

This puts me in opposition to the
multitude of "washed" *hams
who resist change even tho as yet I have not been proved as being in
error.

Nor have you taken any effort to prove you are not in error.
So what we end up with is a room of non stinky hams, who
have to hold their noses when a certain unwashed ham enters
the building. :/

I suppose a "washed" ham is one who is of the opinion that "all is
known about antennas" and thus
"change" is to be avoided.

No a washed ham would be one who showers or bathes on a fairly
regular basis, and most likely uses some type of deodorant.
I suppose a car wash could be a suitable substitution. Or a lake.
It's not really that critical as long as water is involved.

At the moment the consensus seems to be that current only flows on the
outside of a radiator as an open circuit where-as a few say the power
jumps from the end of the antennas to ground to complete a circuit.

My cat has new mittens. The ones we used last year jumped to
ground, and vaporized into black carbon based matter.
Almost like a fig neutrino which was left in an 450 degree oven
for 14 hours.

*One would tend to think that a newsgroup of "washed" hams would be
able to supply the definitive answer in line with "all is known".

Define "all is known".

Points to consider,
A fractional wavelength antenna is NOT in a state of equi;ibrium
( balanced forces if you prefer)

Define equilibrium as it relates to an antenna.

where a full wave radiator IS in a state of equilibrium ( balanced
forces where the sum of which equals zero) and all laws are based on a
state of equilibrium per classical physics

If a full wave radiator IS in a state of equilibrium, whatever that
means,
why are you interested in fractional antennas?
If a full wave is so special, why is a half wave generally just as an
efficient a radiator as a full wave?
Something for you to ponder during your next visit to the
water closet.


Best regards
Art

And likewise I'm sure. I'm going to go play in the dirt for a while.

wrote in message
...
On Oct 31, 1:40 pm, Art Unwin wrote:
I can easily see myself as being viewed as an "unwashed ham" on this
newsgroup !
I hope you use a good deodorant. :/

I am still of the belief that on a fractional wave antenna the current
travels on both the outside
and the inside of the radiator.
It's a free country. But skin effect knows no boundaries I'm
afraid.

This puts me in opposition to the
multitude of "washed" hams
who resist change even tho as yet I have not been proved as being in
error.

Nor have you taken any effort to prove you are not in error.
So what we end up with is a room of non stinky hams, who
have to hold their noses when a certain unwashed ham enters
the building. :/

I suppose a "washed" ham is one who is of the opinion that "all is
known about antennas" and thus
"change" is to be avoided.

No a washed ham would be one who showers or bathes on a fairly
regular basis, and most likely uses some type of deodorant.
I suppose a car wash could be a suitable substitution. Or a lake.
It's not really that critical as long as water is involved.

At the moment the consensus seems to be that current only flows on the
outside of a radiator as an open circuit where-as a few say the power
jumps from the end of the antennas to ground to complete a circuit.

My cat has new mittens. The ones we used last year jumped to
ground, and vaporized into black carbon based matter.
Almost like a fig neutrino which was left in an 450 degree oven
for 14 hours.

One would tend to think that a newsgroup of "washed" hams would be
able to supply the definitive answer in line with "all is known".

Define "all is known".

Points to consider,
A fractional wavelength antenna is NOT in a state of equi;ibrium
( balanced forces if you prefer)

Define equilibrium as it relates to an antenna.

where a full wave radiator IS in a state of equilibrium ( balanced
forces where the sum of which equals zero) and all laws are based on a
state of equilibrium per classical physics

If a full wave radiator IS in a state of equilibrium, whatever that
means,
why are you interested in fractional antennas?
If a full wave is so special, why is a half wave generally just as an
efficient a radiator as a full wave?
Something for you to ponder during your next visit to the
water closet.


Best regards
Art

And likewise I'm sure. I'm going to go play in the dirt for a while.

And just how would you be able to measure the SWR on the inside of the
antenna element?? But I guess that you might assume that what ever the SWR
on the line, and therefore you would take 1/2 for the outside of the element
and the other half for the inside of the element... but wouldn't that cancel
each other, and if it did then wouldn't the SWR drop to zero?? I am really
confused!

"Art Unwin" writes...
I am still of the belief that on a fractional wave antenna
the current travels on both the outside and the inside of
the radiator. This puts me in opposition to the multitude
of "washed" hams who resist change even tho as yet
I have not been proved as being in error.
___________

Believe as you personally wish, Art.

But note that your belief is not supported either by theo-
retical or practical physics, or decades of field experience.

Instead of challenging the readers of your posts to prove
that you are wrong, you might take the time to research and
show SCIENTIFICALLY that you are right (if you can do so).

RF

On Oct 31, 7:13*pm, "Richard Fry" wrote:
"Art Unwin" writes...
I am still of the belief that on a fractional wave antenna
the current travels on both the outside and the inside of
the radiator. This puts me in opposition to the multitude
of "washed" hams who resist change even tho as yet
I have not been proved as being in error.

___________

Believe as you personally wish, Art.

But note that your belief is not supported either by theo-
retical or practical physics, or decades of field experience.

Instead of challenging the readers of your posts to prove
that you are wrong, you might take the time to research and
show SCIENTIFICALLY that you are right (if you can do so).

RF

So what do you believe ?

So what do you believe ?


Art,
I believe we will never get a 'straight' answer from you. Does
that make me a 'washed' ham or an 'unwashed' one? Beats me, I don't
know.
- 'Doc

"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...

So you accept that current flows down the center ?
Knowing that you should be able to answer your own question !
Unless you to are an "unwashed" ham
Art

no, i took a shower last night, so i am definately washed. that was a
question for you, where does the current go on the inside of the antenna
element?

On Nov 1, 8:26*am, "Dave" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...

So you accept that current flows down the center ?
Knowing that you should be able to answer your own question !
Unless you to are an "unwashed" ham
Art

no, i took a shower last night, so i am definately washed. *that was a
question for you, where does the current go on the inside of the antenna
element?

David
When viewing the antenna from an equilibrium point of view which is a
staple requirement of all electrical laws
one must assume that all forces/vectors equal zero (Newton )
Following this dictum physics state that foe equilibrium the charge on
the surface of a radiator does not move
linearlly there fore, there cannot be a linear force or vector to
oppose it. From this it is stated that there is no movement
in linear form else where which includes the center of the conductor/
radiator when the radfiator is one wavelength or multiple there of.
Now we have the case of a fractional wavelength radiator. In this case
one is aware that charges do move in a linear
direction as evidenced by "end effect". Therefore by following the
standard laws of physics there must be a
balancing force/vector in the opposite direction and the only place
that vector could be is in the center of the conductor
One should also be aware that a electrical curcuit for a fractional
wavelength is a series circuit and a parallelel circuit for a
fulle wavelength both of which are closed cuircuits when determining
current flow of a radiator so one can itemise the electrical circuit
in detail with respect to the components on the actual radiator to
ensure compatability.
Now according to my theory of radiation the forward current on a
radiator is opposed by closed circuit eddy current
which in combination provide a angular rotational force on any
residing particle which allows for directional levitation or
projection.
When the current of the radiator reaches the end of the radiator it
closes the circuit by entering the center of the conductor
( assuming the arrangement is not in a state of vacuum)under circular
surface current cuircuit where it is still in existance.
The internal current flow is solely resistive in nature comprising of
theseries resistance of the material used and not radiative.
Now David, if you can point to a description that differs to the above
and follows the laws of physics I would be happy to look it up and
study it , but in the final analysis one must be able to determine
the state of the conductor at it's center at all times.
David, my explanation is based on the world of physics as I know it.
It is not based on opinions from those who never graduated from high
school or those who have not studied physics and rely solely on the
written world or heresay. Hopefully any responses will be likewise.
Have a happy winter discussing physics and its application to antennas
and radiation which is what this newsgroup initially was generated for

Elementary my dear Watson as one Englishman said
Best regards
Art