It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely because
that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the energies needed to
create non-linear effects the medium is close enough to linear that any
doubling effect is too small to see.

On May 8, 4:51*am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*

The laser must be fed into a non-linear medium for the doubling to
occur. The same would be true for RF.Normally the atmosphere and space
are considered fairly linear in respect to both RF and light, both
forms of EM radiation. Luckily for us this is the case, otherwise all
radiation would be multipled to xrays and beyound. The result would
probablybe the termination of all life as we know it.

Jimmie

In message , Dave
writes

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of
frequency doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely
because that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the
energies needed to create non-linear effects the medium is close enough
to linear that any doubling effect is too small to see.


You can get ionospheric mixing of radio waves. e.g Luxembourg Effect; so
doubling is possible.

I also once heard a mixing effect of the 10MHz Time signal MSF with the
60KHz time signal ,producing two sidebands at 10.060 and 9.030 MHz, but
that could have been an effect at the transmitter site.

Maybe WWV does the same - take a listen; it's not strong enough here.

Brian GM4DIJ

--
Brian Howie

"Brian Howie" wrote
...
In message , Dave
writes

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of
frequency doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely because
that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the energies needed
to create non-linear effects the medium is close enough to linear that any
doubling effect is too small to see.


You can get ionospheric mixing of radio waves. e.g Luxembourg Effect; so
doubling is possible.

I also once heard a mixing effect of the 10MHz Time signal MSF with the
60KHz time signal ,producing two sidebands at 10.060 and 9.030 MHz, but
that could have been an effect at the transmitter site.

Maybe WWV does the same - take a listen; it's not strong enough here.

My knowledge on radio waves starts and ends on the description of the Hertz
experiment. So my questions apply to the half wave dipoles.
In the acoustic analogy the Hertz emitter (dipole with the two big balls on
its ends) works like the two monopoles halve wave apart (of course not in
phase). In a few meters from it the Hertz receiver (ring with the two small
balls) works only if parallel. When the receiver is parallel with the
emitter the spherical wave from the upper ball push the electron to lower
halve of the
receiwer and the small spark jump. The frequency is the same
In other orientations the electron in the ring are also moved but the
voltage is equal and no sparks.

But at long distances on every piece of metal acts the two alternating
electric field from the two monopoles. The frequency must be doubled.
Are now antennas similar to Hertz dipole?
Is the frequency doubled.
S*

"JIMMIE" wrote
...
On May 8, 4:51 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*

The laser must be fed into a non-linear medium for the doubling to
occur. The same would be true for RF.Normally the atmosphere and space
are considered fairly linear in respect to both RF and light, both
forms of EM radiation. Luckily for us this is the case, otherwise all
radiation would be multipled to xrays and beyound. The result would
probablybe the termination of all life as we know it.

Very interesting.
May be it take place. You do not analse the intensity after each doubling.
My question apply to the two sources emitters (oscillatig dipole) in a
lineaar medium.
S*

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"Brian Howie" wrote
...
In message , Dave
writes

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of
frequency doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely because
that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the energies needed
to create non-linear effects the medium is close enough to linear that
any doubling effect is too small to see.


You can get ionospheric mixing of radio waves. e.g Luxembourg Effect; so
doubling is possible.

I also once heard a mixing effect of the 10MHz Time signal MSF with the
60KHz time signal ,producing two sidebands at 10.060 and 9.030 MHz, but
that could have been an effect at the transmitter site.

Maybe WWV does the same - take a listen; it's not strong enough here.

My knowledge on radio waves starts and ends on the description of the
Hertz experiment. So my questions apply to the half wave dipoles.
In the acoustic analogy the Hertz emitter (dipole with the two big balls
on its ends) works like the two monopoles halve wave apart (of course not
in phase). In a few meters from it the Hertz receiver (ring with the two
small balls) works only if parallel. When the receiver is parallel with
the emitter the spherical wave from the upper ball push the electron to
lower halve of the
receiwer and the small spark jump. The frequency is the same
In other orientations the electron in the ring are also moved but the
voltage is equal and no sparks.

But at long distances on every piece of metal acts the two alternating
electric field from the two monopoles. The frequency must be doubled.
Are now antennas similar to Hertz dipole?
Is the frequency doubled.
S*

no, your concept is incorrect. the dipole is the whole antenna it is not
limited to sources at the ends. even if you do set up a condition with 2
monopoles, like my 160m inverted V array with 2 verticals 1/2 wave apart,
the interference does not change the frequency, it changes the intensity.
As someone else pointed out, this is because EM waves are transverse waves
and the fields add linearly in normal conditions, it takes a non-linear
medium to cause mixing.

"Dave" wrote
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"Brian Howie" wrote
...
In message , Dave
writes

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...
It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of
frequency doubling.
See: http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
not that has been reported anywhere i have seen. this is likely because
that at the low amplitudes of radio waves relative to the energies
needed to create non-linear effects the medium is close enough to linear
that any doubling effect is too small to see.


You can get ionospheric mixing of radio waves. e.g Luxembourg Effect; so
doubling is possible.

I also once heard a mixing effect of the 10MHz Time signal MSF with the
60KHz time signal ,producing two sidebands at 10.060 and 9.030 MHz, but
that could have been an effect at the transmitter site.

Maybe WWV does the same - take a listen; it's not strong enough here.

My knowledge on radio waves starts and ends on the description of the
Hertz experiment. So my questions apply to the half wave dipoles.
In the acoustic analogy the Hertz emitter (dipole with the two big balls
on its ends) works like the two monopoles halve wave apart (of course not
in phase). In a few meters from it the Hertz receiver (ring with the two
small balls) works only if parallel. When the receiver is parallel with
the emitter the spherical wave from the upper ball push the electron to
lower halve of the
receiwer and the small spark jump. The frequency is the same
In other orientations the electron in the ring are also moved but the
voltage is equal and no sparks.

But at long distances on every piece of metal acts the two alternating
electric field from the two monopoles. The frequency must be doubled.
Are now antennas similar to Hertz dipole?
Is the frequency doubled.
S*

no, your concept is incorrect. the dipole is the whole antenna it is not
limited to sources at the ends. even if you do set up a condition with 2
monopoles, like my 160m inverted V array with 2 verticals 1/2 wave apart,
the interference does not change the frequency,

Does not change in medium. But I am talking about the electrons in metal
kicked by impulses from the TWO sources in opposite phase. The electron do
not know which kick them.


it changes the intensity.
As someone else pointed out, this is because EM waves are transverse waves
and the fields add linearly in normal conditions, it takes a non-linear
medium to cause mixing.

In EM a dipole radiate the ONE EM spherical wave. It is a math.
In reality a dipole is like a machine to produce the two monopoles which
radiate the TWO electric spherical waves.
S*

On May 9, 3:24*am, Szczepan Biaùek wrote:
*"JIMMIE" ...
On May 8, 4:51 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
The laser must be fed into a non-linear medium for the doubling to

occur. The same would be true for RF.Normally the atmosphere and space
are considered fairly linear in respect to *both RF and light, both
forms of EM radiation. Luckily *for us this is the case, otherwise all
radiation would be multipled to xrays and beyound. *The result would
probablybe the termination of all life as we know it.

Very interesting.
May be it take place. You do not analse the intensity after each doubling..
My question apply to the two sources emitters (oscillatig dipole) in a
lineaar medium.
S*

The presence of a non linear medium is always required for frequency
doubling. The only part of the atmoshere that I know of that meets the
qualification is the ionosphere which contains plasma which could act
as a nonlinear medium. I suppose that if the signal were powerful
enough to produce ionization that a frequency could be doubled..

Jimmie

On May 10, 6:58*am, JIMMIE wrote:
On May 9, 3:24*am, Szczepan Biaùek wrote:



*"JIMMIE" ...
On May 8, 4:51 am, Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

It seems that at long distances should appear the phenomenon of frequency
doubling.
See:http://www.rp-photonics.com/frequency_doubling.html

Is such?
S*
The laser must be fed into a non-linear medium for the doubling to

occur. The same would be true for RF.Normally the atmosphere and space
are considered fairly linear in respect to *both RF and light, both
forms of EM radiation. Luckily *for us this is the case, otherwise all
radiation would be multipled to xrays and beyound. *The result would
probablybe the termination of all life as we know it.

Very interesting.
May be it take place. You do not analse the intensity after each doubling.
My question apply to the two sources emitters (oscillatig dipole) in a
lineaar medium.
S*

The presence of a non linear medium is always required for frequency
doubling. The only part of the atmoshere that I know of that meets the
qualification is the ionosphere which contains plasma which could act
as a nonlinear medium. I suppose that if the signal were powerful
enough to produce ionization that a frequency could be doubled..

Jimmie

Hi,
Let me help you with your problem.
You mentioned a cycle which you know is equal to a period or
occillation of a radio wave. Let us say that an antenna charges up and
then radiates ie half the time or occillation for each action. Now you
have decided to apply power to a half wave antenna asnd not a full
wave antenna that is occupied in some action all of the time period.
Now you have to decide what your half wave antenna is going to do.
Charge up only and let the power leak away or radiate without having
any power!
What you have to do is to imagine a radiator as a tank circuit where
you have two energy storage areas, a inductor and a capacitor and for
the mom ent free from losses.
Thus the energy loads up the inductor which then empties into the
capacitor which in turn empties back into the inductor e.t.c Thus only
one charge is supplied and no more since the same charge is really not
being let go!
This is seen as perpetual motion which is an impossibility. Thus if
energy is going to be used it will only be expended for half a cycle
and then the circuit recharges for the next cycle. Now you should be
able to see that a half wave antenna is only capable of working half
the time so in no way can you be applying a doubling of frequency
motion when you only have a half wave antenna to work with. So S* go
back to your study but first replace your half wave antenna and re
think things out with a full wave antenna in loop form with a tank
circuit in mind and when you have all things in place
substitute your half wave antenna and determine what this does to you
tank circuit and radiation.