On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:19:46 GMT, zeno wrote:
I am sure
you have seen these old tv telescoping masts, they seem fairly standard.

Hi Bill,

I have a 40 foot military vertical mast that can be guyed at 4
intervals. Comes with stakes, rope (nylon), hardware, and a 5 pound
sledge hammer and it all fits into a 5 foot duffel bag.

As for bonding the lower guys (if they were wire), that would not be
par for the course. The top loading is only described at the top.
This is not to say such "linear loading" wouldn't be useful, but the
topic becomes more elaborate.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:34:39 GMT, zeno wrote:

This goes back to my original question, should I use rope or wire for the
guys on these masts. If I use the dacron rope I would use pulleys so i can
later change out the rope if need be without taking down the masts.

Hi Bill,

Still a very good question. As I put pulleys up many trees (pulleys
at the bottom to for a continuous loop, flag pole style), your point
is well taken.

My
concern with using wire as guys (as was usually done with old tv masts on
roofs) was that all these lengths of wire in the proximity might in some way
adversely effect my 160m loop.

For a loop, it depends on how you drive it and if it is square. This
is the story of the origin of the quad in Quito Ecuador at HCJB. If
you corner feed it, then each corner exhibits hi-tension and becomes a
source for corona. If you center feed it, you rotate those hi-tension
points into the centers of the other sides. Less sharp bend, less
corona prospects.

I would imagine wire supports in the vicinity of a corona bend would
spell trouble.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

zeno wrote:
This goes back to my original question, should I use rope or wire for the
guys on these masts?

Not only do I use non-conductive rope/string for my guy "wires",
I use non-conductive supports, wood/fiberglas. Works for me.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp




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Richard Clark wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:34:39 GMT, zeno wrote:

This goes back to my original question, should I use rope or wire for the
guys on these masts. If I use the dacron rope I would use pulleys so i can
later change out the rope if need be without taking down the masts.

Hi Bill,

Still a very good question. As I put pulleys up many trees (pulleys
at the bottom to for a continuous loop, flag pole style), your point
is well taken.

My
concern with using wire as guys (as was usually done with old tv masts on
roofs) was that all these lengths of wire in the proximity might in some way
adversely effect my 160m loop.

For a loop, it depends on how you drive it and if it is square. This
is the story of the origin of the quad in Quito Ecuador at HCJB. If
you corner feed it, then each corner exhibits hi-tension and becomes a
source for corona. If you center feed it, you rotate those hi-tension
points into the centers of the other sides. Less sharp bend, less
corona prospects.

I would imagine wire supports in the vicinity of a corona bend would
spell trouble.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Hi Richard,

Interesting about the loop configurtion. My propose loop was at first going to
be square, then after scouting the actual route around the real estate here, it
became more of a trapazoid with the feed (diy ladder line) in the corner of the
shortest side. Upon more precise measurement of the actual perimeter inscribed
by the four masts, it was discovered that said perimeter was actuall about 50'
in excess of 540' loop length. Now I am planning to add the 5th mast (the one
in the middle of the orchard discussed earlier) which will both put a little new
"corner" in the longest side and also add renewed elevation (50') to an
otherwise sagging 180' continuous run, this 5th mast will be used to pull out
(via pulleys and dacron line) some of that 50' excess to the 540' loop length.

So basically we are talking a squarish 160m full wave loop, fed at a corner.
Since I may not actually hitch-hike the vertical unipole we discussed on any of
these masts (having plenty of other options on my 7 acre spread as well as other
masts) maybe I will just make life simple and use the dacron and pulleys for the
system of guys. But this does still leave the metal mast in the proximity of
these corners, so the question is: how much more of a problem (corona etc.) is
adding metal wire guys to an already existing metal mast. My simplistic
intuition is, the more wire at more angles in the vacinity cannot help the
situation. So unless I hear otherwise, I guess I will plan to use the dacron for
the guys on all masts.


Speaking of trees and pulleys. I just had my first experience putting up an 80m
OCF between two trees 140' apart. I used a sling shot method. When the antenna
was hoisted, the rope perch at the top dropped down and although the antenna
does work (especially better than my previous random end fed long wire), I do
have to do it over again to get it as high as the trees are capable of. After a
little wind storm, it dropped down further. Trees are a challenge. I am hoping
to meet the local ham-archer who, rumor has it, can shoot an arrow exactly where
you want it with exactly the right amount of momentum. He will definitely be
necessary to get a line 175' up my Eucalytus tree in the back section of the
property where I was fantasizing a 160 OCF and an alternate "getaway" shack.

I may just end up with little alternate ham shacks anywhere where I can put up a
good antenna here. This will be another definition of "mobile" or
"portable"......

Bill

Hi Cecil,

Tell me more about your wood/fiberglass supports. How do you make a 40-50'
mast out of this material? Is this a type of nautical craftsmanship? Do you
feel that the metal masts are inviting potential problems or do you think my
proposed loop might be in the ballpark of ok to good with the metal masts at
the corners? The actual loop wire may be ten feet away (via ropes) from the
top of the masts.

73

Bill

Cecil Moore wrote:

zeno wrote:
This goes back to my original question, should I use rope or wire for the
guys on these masts?

Not only do I use non-conductive rope/string for my guy "wires",
I use non-conductive supports, wood/fiberglas. Works for me.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Hi Cecil,

tnx for the link. I will visit your website and get some more ideas.

73, bill

Cecil Moore wrote:

zeno wrote:
This goes back to my original question, should I use rope or wire for the
guys on these masts?

Not only do I use non-conductive rope/string for my guy "wires",
I use non-conductive supports, wood/fiberglas. Works for me.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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zeno wrote:
Tell me more about your wood/fiberglass supports. How do you make a 40-50'
mast out of this material?

I use 2x4s to get to 30' and then 1.5" fiberglass tubing for the other 20'.
If cost is no object, the entire support could be fiberglass. I got mine
from: http://www.ryanherco.com in Houston. Fiberglass pipe is really
handy for a number of applications (including Escrima Sticks :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 00:35:21 GMT, zeno wrote:
But this does still leave the metal mast in the proximity of
these corners, so the question is: how much more of a problem (corona etc.) is
adding metal wire guys to an already existing metal mast. My simplistic
intuition is, the more wire at more angles in the vacinity cannot help the
situation. So unless I hear otherwise, I guess I will plan to use the dacron for
the guys on all masts.

Goferit.

The answer to proximity (seeing you have more perimeter than you need)
is to simply keep the corner off, away from the mast about 10 or 20
feet. In other words, you put the masts at corners that are well
outside the bends of the loop. Thus you are suspending the loop bends
with dacron line (through the pulley) such that THOSE bends are well
inside the box described by the mast co-ordinates. (Think box inside
a box co-ordinate system. The exterior box corners, the masts,
support the interior box corners, the antenna.)
View with fixed font:

M---------------------M
|\ /|
| \ / |
| ................. |
| . . |
| . . |
| . . |
| . . |
| . . |
| . . |
| ................. |
| / \ |
|/ \|
M---------------------M

where
M is mast
--- is a ghost line
/ or \ is dacron going to antenna wire
... is antenna wire

You have the flexibility to put acreage to work for you, don't try
passing the bends through AT the mast itself.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Hi Richard and the group,

Excellent. I can even move the 5th mast out to add even more perimeter. The
clearance at each mast will be at least 10'-15' maybe more. Your keyboard image
making was appreciated.

Did I mention that the ladder-line will be perpendicular, but moving away from the
loop more horizontally than as a strict vertical drop. The ladder-line will be
10-20' away from the mast at that corner and needs to span maybe 45+' to the house
and then maybe another 15+' feet to the matchbox. I only mention this in case I am
overlooking any precautions I may have not already considered.

It looks like the loop will have to have a bit of tension in order not to droop,
especially with these dacron extensions at each mast. I was planning to have the
loop wire free-flowing at each corner glass strain insulator (glass can handle the
abrasion, plastic could not), except the one corner closest to the point where the
ladder line-attaches in order to minimize movement at that feed point juncture.

Most of the mast materials are set to go. I still need to decide on the details of
the ladder-line construction, which wire and which spacers. I will use solid copper
wire because braided is too wiggly and might swarm at me. Insulated vs. bare? Bare
has a certain appeal. #14 vs. #12 vs. #10 (?).
Why not #10?, it is only in the air for 45'....ok maybe that is a bit heavy, a bit
overkill, maybe #12 then.... anyone ever use #10 for ladder line?


I am thinking that bare #10 (or even #12) solid copper would hold its shape
especially negotiating the curve from the 4' of PVC pipe it will be tied to above
the house at the edge of the roof peak, then arching down and crossing between some
telephone and cable tv lines, into the the side of the house through some porcelin
insulators, suspended briefly in the attic, and then down through the ceiling, again
through porcelin tube insulators. In other words, after I poke the two wires through
the side of the house into the attic, I will, shortly thereafter, be up in the attic
continuing to attach a number of spacers to these wires (wearing a dust mask and a
cob-web proof hat), until I get to that point in the ceiling where the wires will
again go through the porcelin insulator tubes, then on the other side of the ceiling
(in the "shack"), as the wire comes into the station, I will again be adding a few
more spacers until it arrives at the matchbox, at which point, I will have a coffee
break.

This way the ladder line will have no breaks from the antenna feed point to the
matchbox.

hmmmmm....what if I need to add length to my ladder-line later for some reason? I
will hate to cut into it!


Does 60-65' of ladder line seem like a "good" number. I will double check this
meaurement tomorrow. If anything, it might be longer. Are there any particular
lengths in this type of feed system I should be avoiding? BTW, the matchbox has no
160m. Until I acquire some other balanced tuner that does, if I want to try this
loop on 160m, I will have to connect it to a little balanced tuner I have here using
a balun.

I have learned that a good technique for tying the ladder line to the anchor above
the roof's edge is to weave some of that small dia. dacron line into each side of
the ladder line and use that to pull the ladder line to the support. Anyone second
this, or have another solution? Pulling on the spacers doesn't seem like a good
idea.

If I have stated anything that needs advice or correction, anyone, please don't
hesitate.

73

Bill



Richard Clark wrote:

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 00:35:21 GMT, zeno wrote:
But this does still leave the metal mast in the proximity of
these corners, so the question is: how much more of a problem (corona etc.) is
adding metal wire guys to an already existing metal mast. My simplistic
intuition is, the more wire at more angles in the vacinity cannot help the
situation. So unless I hear otherwise, I guess I will plan to use the dacron for
the guys on all masts.

Goferit.

The answer to proximity (seeing you have more perimeter than you need)
is to simply keep the corner off, away from the mast about 10 or 20
feet. In other words, you put the masts at corners that are well
outside the bends of the loop. Thus you are suspending the loop bends
with dacron line (through the pulley) such that THOSE bends are well
inside the box described by the mast co-ordinates. (Think box inside
a box co-ordinate system. The exterior box corners, the masts,
support the interior box corners, the antenna.)
View with fixed font:

M---------------------M
|\ /|
| \ / |
| ................. |
| . . |
| . . |
| . . |
| . . |
| . . |
| . . |
| ................. |
| / \ |
|/ \|
M---------------------M

where
M is mast
--- is a ghost line
/ or \ is dacron going to antenna wire
... is antenna wire

You have the flexibility to put acreage to work for you, don't try
passing the bends through AT the mast itself.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC